What's worse? That or announcing different LEs after people have paid for a previous "LE"?

PS: You may wanna go back and look at the final line in the feature matrix you posted.

Stern does a great job manipulating availability to drive blind purchases. I too no longer purchase Stern pins out of the gate, but I have to admit that its sometimes difficult to stick to my guns. Stern is very, very good at this game, but it does not build loyalty. Almost a love/hate relationship.

Yep. And that was exactly my point.

Prior to real competitors they never even publically adressed the code 'situation'.

A little competitive pressure is good for everyone (and for pinball in general).

Maybe they'll get sued and go out of business like Pepsi is for making another 'limited edition' Pepsi perfect run!

I think Jack Benson... https://www.linkedin.com/in/jfbenson?trk=seokp-title_posts_secondary_cluster_res_author_name but I really don't know the backstory other than he won PAPA 2014 C division and was lead on Woah Nellie...

Yeah.....Pepsi's going to go out of business over that.

I can't believe some of what I'm reading. A lot of short memories around here.

Are we much better off today or 2 or 3 years ago?

How about the great F Ing pins they have pumped out during that time?

My only beef is I bought a TWDLE and was told by two distributors that Stern told them "no premiums this time".

Ok so I was going to buy TWDLE dream theme from Day one anyhow. Would I have waited and bought a premium if I knew they were making one? Maybe but not likely. But if the pin sucked I might be pissed

Be up front and honest, don't rely on some disclaimer at the bottom.

I agree it has gotten better and GOT is ahead of schedule compared to many other releases. I hope Stern stays committed to providing solid code for their pins. I don't mind waiting months for a game to get to a point where it feels like it has a complete rule set. It's in the six months to a year range in which I would say it is taking too long to get to buyers of these pins.

That's my point, people could hardly not wait for Met LE. if it had sucked an egg like WWE LE, I'm sure people would have been mad.

Fortunately, for STLE Stern made a good number, such that I was able to pass on buying the LE for several months. I was able to play the pro when it was out and there were still a lot of LEs around. (or the premium would have been fine too).

I just could care less about the limited-ness. I don't think Tron LE would be a worse game if it was unlimited numbers or if it had sold 1000 units instead of 400. Or AcDc BIBLE (etc..) Stern could have sold more of the higher money LEs on some games. But IMO Stern has a system that forced (not really forces you but makes it very hard to pass on an LE if you think it might be good but you don't want to wait a year for the code and then they might not be for sale any more).

GoT had more polished code at release because it was under development over a year (408.5 days) longer than other back 2 back tables by the same designer. The dates are from press releases:

726 Day Difference
Star Trek - 9/12/2013
GoT - 9/8/2015

396 Day Difference -> GoT = 83.3% more time
Mustang - 12/5/2013
WWE - 1/5/2015

239 Day Difference -> GoT = 203.7% more time
TWD - 9/9/2014
Kiss - 5/6/2015

317.5 avg day difference

726 - 317.5 = 408.5 days (additional time GoT had compared to other pin releases)

It's a joke. You'd have to read some of the hysterics over in the Pepsi perfect posts to fully comprehend.

The timing of this post is incredibly confusing to me. Sure back in the #wheresthecode heydey, I would expect a post like this, but now I don't really get it.

As disrespectful as the #wheresthecode movement was in their tactics, they certainly had a point, and there as a point in time where you really had no idea if the code was going to be a turd or not on a new game. Sometime around after Metallica was released but before Lyman dropped the Met code bomb adding crank it up, it really seemed like a crapshoot on whether advertised features would ever be added, and whether games would have any more depth to them than could be discovered in a couple games of play.

At this point in time, Stern has really turned it around. Met went from a subpar game to pretty great, Mustang was severely improved, TWD was rescued, and GoT was released in the best shape of any recent Stern. KISS isn't amazing but is playable and in respectable shape for release code.

Jared just seems to lack a bit of PR instinct with this. At this point, the appropriate messaging is "yes, we admit, we didn't treat the home enthusiast(i.e. code) seriously in the past, but we have made great strides in recent history, as you can see, and will do our best to keep this level of quality or better in the future."

What Jared did, a) not admitting that at some point the code quality had gotten way way out of hand, and b) not pointing out how it's in pretty great shape now to the point where it's hard to complain much outside of a couple of old releases, just seem to be flat out PR mistakes.

Sometimes it's easy to focus on the negative things especially on a forum like this. Overall this thread is a positive thing it demonstrates that Stern knows we care about the code on our pins and are dedicated to updating/finishing code on all their new releases. I'm glad Stern is making an effort not only to put out awesome code but also communicate with the community to let us know that it's important to them because they know it's important to us.

Agreed. I do think it's legit to have issues, like the Avengers bugs. But we can't ask for more communication, and then when we get it bitch at the messenger.

In my job I deal with our audience directly on a daily basis. When people ask me to add new features I can honestly say I'm much more open minded when they're respectful. When you're a constant dick to me, I won't lie, I start to tune you out.

If you want Stern to change, then engage them in a dialogue. Encourage them, don't bitch at them.

I would love to know what and when they are working on code, because it may cause some people to sell of machines. Some have sold their KISS because there have been no updates, but may have kept them knowing code was coming down the line. I think its the secrecy that upsets people the most, being in the dark about if/when something is coming.

How do you engage with a company that won't engage with you? Criticism will get you banned from their FB page and their presence on Pinside is Jared, and this thread is a perfect example of how not to use social media.

Comparing MET to KISS is like comparing a spiderweb to a single piece of thread that goes only from one point to another. KISS is very one dimensional in the design of its rules. 3/4 of the current game features are awarded randomly from from the backstage pass. For the skilled player this doesn't present much challenge - unless you put a cliffy on the scoop and then shooting the scoop becomes the challenge I can't wait to see the next update and where the code is going. They have to really get past the .01 increment stage!

Rob

I was going to say the exact thing but whatever. I'm tired of talking about this. Yes Stern has improved but there is still plenty of room for improvement.

I think Stern is doing a great job with updates and I am happy when a new one is released. I will tell you it has very little impact on the coin box. 90% of players are casual and choose a game based on theme. Pinball players will never understand that. I only did when I started operating them. Thanks Jarred and Stern!

Perhaps it's different where you live but where I do a lot of pinheads play location games and even have leagues on location. I'd argue that if the pinheads did not go out n play location pins in some locations there would be little use of actually routing pins there. Code does matter on location pins IMO.

Both Gomez and Jody has confirmed that a code is coming, havent they? For avengers I mean.

In the case of Avengers, this has been done on multiple occasions. They have asked for a list of things we would like to see more than once. There is also an entire thread dedicated to fixes and suggestions. In the past I've been very polite and kindly asked to consider an Avengers update on Facebook and through email. In one ear, out the other. The reason why people "bitch at them now" is because they keep saying there will be an update and have done so over an extended period of time compared to other game updates.

Don't get me wrong, I am more than grateful for the code updates we have gotten in the past, especially for X-men. But don't string owners along, just say you have no plans to update the code. Instead they start a thread about how well they are doing now with code updates, while Avengers owners are still waiting. It's kind of insulting.

Now that I've said all this, I'm sure an update will be out before the end of the year. And I will gladly eat my words.

I have purchased 4 NIB Stern machines over the last few years. All were purchased based on theme. Overall, despite taking awhile, I feel Stern has delivered on code.

Xmen LE code was brutal at release but eventually evolved into some pretty great code

Avengers LE code was solid at release but has only seen marginal improvement over time

Star Trek LE code was decent at release and has seen some very good code updates

Tron Rerun#3 code was very good at time of purchase. No clue on original release code.

I also have POTC, LOTR, TSPP, IM, SM, FG, and Monopoly. All these machines were purchased well after their initial release dates but the latest code is solid. My only minor gripe is on IM. No attract sounds and not a fan of the random extra ball award.

In summary, I think Stern delivers solid code (eventually). I just don't like the "stay tuned" or spin doctoring of the code release data (#releases/month). I don't think minor bug fixes should be considered (in this discussion) as code updates. My only advice to Stern would be to deliver solid code in a timely manner. If you cant deliver solid code within one year of release, you are doing it wrong.

That sure would be nice. I am banned and now their posts don't show up in my newsfeed because I can't like their stuff.

I'm not even banned for making a bad comment on their page.

No your bitching is a perfect example of how not to use SM

yes,no bitching while playing Spiderman

Ahh the good old days, XMLE code was so bad it was almost as if Stern wanted to see how bad they could make the game. At one point every shot would feature the same Wolverine callout. Stacking was mandatory and you couldn't figure out what the hell mode you were in. People were going back one or two code updates just so they didn't have to take a sledge hammer to the game.

Actually it's fun to go back, I can go back to the launch code and it's like a whole new game. The initial code was bad but playable in an odd way.

Now the XM code is good, but for a while this pin was as bad as any I've played. And I do think Stern hurt resale value permanently.

I do believe several games still need updates to fix bugs, and will always say Stern is being extra lazy by not fixing a few things as has been noted here on Pinside in various threads.

Agenda? Please share my bitching?

Stern has no care or consideration of resale value. I used to be of the opinion that high resale values helped Stern. They could point to them and say "Hey, but quick or it might be the next IM". But then IMVE came out and gutted the resale prices of games. All non-LE games now that the possibility of a VE because Gary said there would be more. Did you see the downward pressure on games when that happened? Who wanted to get stuck paying $6.5k for a game that might be had the next week for $4.9k? Look at all the speculation threads on the next VE even though there have been exactly ONE of them. Fun times.

Might not care about resale, but the should care if people are unhappy with WWE who may never buy another Stern game because they feel like they got ripped off.

I would not have bought STLE if Stern had left XM for dead.

The rules and "game" of GOT have not been worked on since Star Trek.

Stern pays more attention than you think. They're reading all these threads. Forget Facebook. It's a dumb way to reach anyone. It's a marketing tool, they just want excited comments.

Huh? They were programming it the entire weekend before the game play reveal on Dead_Flip.

So, by the end of the week you will be buying TWD ... Excellent choice !!!

Facebook is a great way to engage with customers. Most companies using real social media departments understand this and utilize aspects of social media to not only engage with customers but help control the message through that direct engagement. Just banning people from a platform like FB is just a shallow way to approach issues brought up by customers.

I'm not going to argue the merits of FB with people that don't like it but I am intimately aware of the way some fortune 500 companies are using it as their direct link to their customers.

Stern's code development at the time of game release has been consistent for as long as I can remember. Early purchasers of NIB games should know by now that the code is going to be developed as the game sits in their house or location. I think they have done a decent job of creating nice, nuanced rulesets and outside of a couple of titles they have been consistently supporting them with timely code updates. Now that said, there communication with their customers can be better and hopefully this is what Jared is alluding to. I've seen several purchasers of NIB games have that experience tarnished by lack of timely code updates and/or the lack of information as to when updates would be made. That is on them though, as it is nothing new and if you are impatient and can't wait a year or two for the code to be finished you are better off not buying NIB at initial release.

Does anyone know why Stern doesn't develop their pins with a digital representation in visual pinball/etc? It seems like they could front-load a lot of their software development with a platform like this, and not get stuck in this situation of wanting to start selling the second the physical component is done regardless of the software state. Perhaps the pinball arcade partnership will allow this, but not sure if Stern has the vision/priorities to take advantage of it.

Yeah they are. I got banned from their FB for a post I made on Pinside.

He has that here. He runs leagues year round, holds events and a lot of good players play at his location. What he is saying is that the good players and pinheads don't pay the bills. I can go in there and play the newest games for hours on a couple bucks. If he catered to players like me primarily he would be broke. Sure code matters to a certain extent, but the players are going to play regardless because they love pinball. It's the kids who walk up, put a dollar in TWD and play for 45 seconds that pay the bills for him and they don't know if the code is v.09 or v.90.

Sure, agreed. But they're not using it that way, and so it goes. I don't lose sleep worrying about their social media strategy.

I use Facebook, and it's part of our social media at Ars Technica. We engage with people there, on Twitter, in our own forums, through email, etc.

Do it however you like, there are lots of approaches, and Facebook is only one. I'll refrain from names, but there are two active pinball manufacturers who's company owners post directly here on Pinside, interacting with their core customer base. Works out pretty well for them as far as I can tell.

Given the reaction to Jody on the Twitch feeds here I'm pretty sure he's not the person anyone is dying to talk to, but Jared being here is a start.

They do, trust me. The main issue is they keep very short development timelines and something always suffers.

I don't buy it man. If serious pinballers did not play his or location machines operators would see a noticeable loss in profit. No real way to prove either view point so I guess we'd just be talking in circles. I respect everyone's opinions even if I disagree though.

But Jared is not "here." He post a seemingly scripted post and then turtles away. Maybe that's Sterns approach, drive the stick into the ant mound and then sit back and watch what happens. I don't know their thinking, nor will I lose sleep over it.

once it's been released to the 'net, it will always available *somewhere*

I count 3. The one in the middle (geographically) of the other 2 isn't quite as polished, but still chimes in from time to time.

I don't see Stern losing sleep over one that has not bought a Stern NIB in over 10 years

every location is different but by and large pinball on location takes both the regulars and the casuals in order to make it even remotely feasible.

It is like the bar that needs the guys whom have their butt worn into a specific seat and the casuals who come out for a drink every once in a while. Most bars/ pinball needs some of both, but if you cater to only the player you will not make it.

I agree. What I disagreed with is that pinball fans don't play on location and code did not matter. If I think code stinks on a certain pin I will not spend a dime on it in the wild. So while code will encourage pinball addicts to pay to play or even buy the pin I don't think having good code will deter a casual player from playing. What I was getting at is having solid code on pins even in the wild can only help and not hurt.

telling, isn't it.