About Stern and Commitment to Code Releases

(Topic ID: 144776)

About Stern and Commitment to Code Releases


By Jared

3 years ago



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There are 1019 posts in this topic. You are on page 15 of 21.
#701 3 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

We keep talking about what Stern should be doing with the release of a new game and the code but it feels as though everyone is forgetting about GOT which is Stern's newest (non VE) game that they have released. That code was in really good shape when it first shipped. There were some bugs that were found but the game was complete. There are things that we as a community would like to have added but we can't argue it wasn't complete because there are features we'd like to add.
My point in this response is I think we continue to look at the past and are forgetting the current to quickly.
I wont argue that code is still a challenge with Stern but we also need to admit they have heard our complaints and are making strides to improve on them and GOT to me was an example of this.

Its a fair point....But KISS isnt that far in the past....

#706 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:

Its a fair point....But KISS isnt that far in the past....

Kiss is still being worked on.

#707 3 years ago
Quoted from Squizz:

That's all well and good for the folks working there and not being layed off! Mean's that STERN is making a lot of $$$

No actually it doesn't mean that. It means they have a lot of factory workers and paying say 15 workers $15 and hour for a week of doing nothing because the dev team has more code to write could be enough to go out of business if you do it regularly. You need machines on the line otherwise they have to ramp down the factory and get into a JJP slow moving factory situation or they have to just release machines close to ready now and update them in the field. It's not a problem of stern workers. It's our problem. When stern announced a game it's run very fast and preorders are all filled. Other companies take several months sometimes years to complete a run of a game.

#708 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Kiss is still being worked on.

Uh, sure/maybe but what's your point? he was saying that recent releases had code pretty well baked off the line.

#709 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Kiss is still being worked on.

It should have been worked on harder...

Rob

#710 3 years ago

This has been a painful wait for code, but I can honestly say I was much more frustrated with X-men.. if that means anything

#711 3 years ago

I still don't get the complaints. On a website where the Ghostbusters thread is over 4000(?) posts long, before the game was even announced, I think it can be said that Pinsiders can't wait to get their hands on anything new.
So now we have a few people complaining that Stern is wronging us, the customer, by producing games with incomplete code, and that Stern should hold off on releasing a title until it's 100% done?

Half full, or half empty?

If you view it as half empty, you just need to be patient until the game is proven, and the code is complete, or near-enough, that you like the game. Walking Dead is a perfect example: I thought it was dull when it was released. Now that Lyman has blown the doors off of it rules-wise, I decided it was time to buy one.

Don't be bitter just because other people sign up to be guinea pigs. If that's not your style, that's fine. But it might be preferred for others.

#712 3 years ago

I plan to buy Ghostbusters AFTER I have played it and AFTER the code seems far enough along. I will not blind buy an $8K machine.

Also, my X-Men still needs some final code fixes (NOT asking for additional features, but rather the same fixes I have brought up many times on this site). That would gain back my confidence in this company.

#713 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Kiss is still being worked on.

How do you know that fact ? You work at Stern or have insider info ? If not i would assume its just a guess lol

#714 3 years ago
Quoted from Wakky:

How do you know that fact ? You work at Stern or have insider info ? If not i would assume its just a guess lol

I can vouch the code is being worked from Stern direct. However, I will cannot vouch on the quality of the next release, how far they will go, or when they will decide to release the update. It keeps being side by sided by other game priorities.

However, code does not fix issues for assemblies or shot design.

#715 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

No actually it doesn't mean that. It means they have a lot of factory workers and paying say 15 workers $15 and hour for a week of doing nothing because the dev team has more code to write could be enough to go out of business if you do it regularly.

If software development can't keep pace with manufacturing, the company will go out of business no matter how they time things; the backlog will just keep getting bigger until the whole thing falls over. If it can, then there's no reason for Stern to be releasing half-finished games. All they would need to do is slow the frequency of announcements for a year or two and software would be synchronised with manufacturing, after which point they could continue at the current rate.

#716 3 years ago
Quoted from Circus_Animal:

All they would need to do is slow the frequency of announcements for a year or two and software would be synchronised with manufacturing, after which point they could continue at the current rate.

"slow the frequency of announcements..." -you mean, delay new games being produced?
Cause if that's what you're saying, you weren't paying attention in class my friend.

The end result is this:

this is how Stern operates. Like it or not. No, nobody on here actually knows a better way to make this work, with fully coded games being released while keeping the production line running. You're all just wagging your chins.

#717 3 years ago
Quoted from Circus_Animal:

If software development can't keep pace with manufacturing, the company will go out of business no matter how they time things; the backlog will just keep getting bigger until the whole thing falls over. If it can, then there's no reason for Stern to be releasing half-finished games. All they would need to do is slow the frequency of announcements for a year or two and software would be synchronised with manufacturing, after which point they could continue at the current rate.

That also not true. Software development isn't the type of thing that goes twice as fast with 2 people than one and 2x as fast with 4 people as 2. So if the dev cycle for software is (for example) 2 years per game and the cycle for mechanics and manufacturing is 1, all you need is enough software guys so that one guy can keep working on one machine until it's done. At this point stern has 2-3 real releases per year but it has 4 lead software devs so it actually does work out and it does keep pace but just to be more behind.

Also, software can't get started earlier either. They need a game at a certain level of operation before they can write their code.

#718 3 years ago

It's already been pointed out but it has been a year since the last ST update. Before that, it was a long time before the last update. I still enjoy ST but Stern has commented on several occasions that there will be another update. They say they are working on code for other games, too. Meanwhile, they are cranking out game after game. There needs to be a bigger priority of getting code out the door. There doesn't have to be huge updates. An update for ST should be fairly straightforward since it is just bug fixes. Does shouldn't take months or years. If there are no resources to working on updates for some of these older games, Stern should say they are working on it. That's what bugs me. If you say you are going to do it, then get it done.

#719 3 years ago
Quoted from Circus_Animal:

If software development can't keep pace with manufacturing, the company will go out of business no matter how they time things; the backlog will just keep getting bigger until the whole thing falls over. If it can, then there's no reason for Stern to be releasing half-finished games. All they would need to do is slow the frequency of announcements for a year or two and software would be synchronised with manufacturing, after which point they could continue at the current rate.

This is laden with several fallacies

- that all software is equally important. Some things simply can wait
- that all work needed is predictable and known ahead of time - not only are estimates poor at times, new requirements always appear
- that all projects are equally important - reality is the world is dynamic and it's not uncommon to rob from Peter to pay Paul when circumstances dictate
- that you need to finish things at all costs - sometimes it just makes sense to punt and move on
- that software investment in a dead product is valuable - this can actually be wasteful
- that all projects are roughly similar sizes... The lines need to run, and stalling them for software doesn't make sense. SW can be added later at negiblile costs... Production line can not do time warps

When the work backlog gets too big - you evaluate what is most important and if the work items are still relevant... And drop stuff that never will feasibly get done. You don't "fall over" -- you decide what is not worth doing.

The problem people have had with stern is not that code needs iterations, it's that they did not have faith in stern for delivering on the updates and in an acceptable timeframe. That has a lot to do with sterns past performance and their choice to not be forthcoming on the code's state or future plans. Stern wants their cake and eat it too...

Staff up.. Yes... Staff to have everything done at day0.... Probably overkill

#720 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Also, software can't get started earlier either. They need a game at a certain level of operation before they can write their code.

This I disagree with. The platform is relatively stable. Game code is largely abstracted from the hardware below it. There isn't a lot of reason simulation can't be used to get a bulk of the elements in place. The hardware driver interfaces can be acted on later or at least represented with interfaces

And now they should be coding in a high level language. If not, build the thing in a pinmame type environment.

With their hardware platform spanning multiple titles over years... It's gotta be worth it

#721 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

This I disagree with. The platform is relatively stable. Game code is largely abstracted from the hardware below it. There isn't a lot of reason simulation can't be used to get a bulk of the elements in place. The hardware driver interfaces can be acted on later or at least represented with interfaces
And now they should be coding in a high level language. If not, build the thing in a pinmame type environment.
With their hardware platform spanning multiple titles over years... It's gotta be worth it

Pinmame might have been someone helpful on Sam where it was emulated. But then you'd need resources to make the video table. This is not at all helpful on spike where there is no emulation. They would have to spend a lot of hours creating the simulation type environment that doesn't exist now.

#722 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Pinmame might have been someone helpful on Sam where it was emulated. But then you'd need resources to make the video table. This is not at all helpful on spike where there is no emulation. They would have to spend a lot of hours creating the simulation type environment that doesn't exist now.

Yes, but they also have the most to gain from doing so. It's not a hobby to them. It could be a worthwhile investment given you have the same platform for many games over a long period. Plus it would be a fundamental tool for automated testing as well.

No need for the video portion of the table at the earlier phases... use manual input or scripted switch hits. Heck, you could probably take one of the visual sims anyway out there today and put your hardware sim under it.

The point isn't to play out the design of the game (that's another use case) but simply to be able to implement code further without waiting for a physical prototype.

#723 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

It means they have a lot of factory workers and paying say 15 workers $15 and hour for a week of doing nothing because the dev team has more code to write could be enough to go out of business if you do it regularly.

Stern's workers aren't unionized, they're part time - so if the line isn't running, they just don't bring people in that day. Not like at WMS, where they got paid whether they worked or not.

#724 3 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Stern's workers aren't unionized, they're part time - so if the line isn't running, they just don't bring people in that day. Not like at WMS, where they got paid whether they worked or not.

Right but if they're not working they quit and find new jobs.

#725 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

if the dev cycle for software is (for example) 2 years per game and the cycle for mechanics and manufacturing is 1, all you need is enough software guys so that one guy can keep working on one machine until it's done. At this point stern has 2-3 real releases per year but it has 4 lead software devs so it actually does work out and it does keep pace but just to be more behind.

Okay, so software development can keep pace with production. So why are they releasing half-finished games? Slow the release cycle for a couple of years until games are actually finished when they start selling them.

Quoted from flynnibus:

When the work backlog gets too big - you evaluate what is most important and if the work items are still relevant... And drop stuff that never will feasibly get done. You don't "fall over" -- you decide what is not worth doing.

That's fine up to the point that customers decide that buying their games is not worth doing. Short-changing customers on advertised features, taking years to provide a finished product, failing to address software bugs is eroding the consumer goodwill that Stern relies on, and it is setting them up for a fall.

#726 3 years ago
Quoted from Circus_Animal:

Okay, so software development can keep pace with production. So why are they releasing half-finished games? Slow the release cycle for a couple of years until games are actually finished when they start selling them.

Unfortunately, you misunderstood what I said. Software can be written in multiple teams where each team can be working on a game independently of another team. These numbers are examples. Suppose software needs about 1.6 years to complete its job but mechanical engineering only needs 1 year. Suppose the factory must run a minimum of 3 items per year for them to stay in business. Suppose the software cycle cannot begin until the game is 4 months into the mechanics. With this model you can have double the software teams as the mechanical teams and the software will always be done about a year after the game and the factory will always be running on schedule. This explains why the situation is as it is. Otherwise each game would need say another year of time before its release.

I'm sure many would love to see stern just pause and wait a year, have each game take a year longer, and start releasing completed games but that isn't going to be possible for them as a business that has bills to pay and workers to pay.

And btw, this problem will only get worse when DMD moves to led with fancy graphics that take tons longer to develop than DMD dots which almost anyone can do.

#727 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

And btw, this problem will only get worse when DMD moves to led with fancy graphics that take tons longer to develop than DMD dots which almost anyone can do.

This.

And this is the reason why they can charge more for LCD than TMD. Not because the hardware is more expensive - probably the opposite - but because more ressources are needed to "feed" the LCD screen.

An aggravating factor will be related to licence issues. I doubt the people behind the Star Trek movie made a fuss about the DMD animation. Now imagine the same pin with an LCD screen and you will face delays for approval like Dutch Pinball with TBL.

#728 3 years ago
Quoted from Rob_G:

It should have been worked on harder...
Rob

Are you saying they were " rock and roll all night, and party every day" instead of working on the game?

#729 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Unfortunately, you misunderstood what I said. Software can be written in multiple teams where each team can be working on a game independently of another team. These numbers are examples. Suppose software needs about 1.6 years to complete its job but mechanical engineering only needs 1 year. Suppose the factory must run a minimum of 3 items per year for them to stay in business. Suppose the software cycle cannot begin until the game is 4 months into the mechanics. With this model you can have double the software teams as the mechanical teams and the software will always be done about a year after the game and the factory will always be running on schedule. This explains why the situation is as it is. Otherwise each game would need say another year of time before its release.
I'm sure many would love to see stern just pause and wait a year, have each game take a year longer, and start releasing completed games but that isn't going to be possible for them as a business that has bills to pay and workers to pay.
And btw, this problem will only get worse when DMD moves to led with fancy graphics that take tons longer to develop than DMD dots which almost anyone can do.

I understand what you're saying about the manufacturing process, I just don't agree with your conclusions. Stern don't need to sit on their hands for a year to get the code on track; they can release vault editions, rethemes, even make a few games that don't need extensive code (there's plenty of great games with straightforward rulesets). Nor do they need to release X number of games per year to stay in business; they need to make X dollars, irrespective of which game the sales come from- and sales of each game will increase if they can provide a better product i.e. complete code in a shorter timeframe. It would be smart business for Stern to try to find a way to do this.

#730 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

That also not true. Software development isn't the type of thing that goes twice as fast with 2 people than one and 2x as fast with 4 people as 2.

False:

#731 3 years ago

This argument just keeps going on and on lol. Stern isn't in business to satisfy the handful of Pinsiders that are going to complain about code no matter what they do, they are in business for the other 98% that really don't care and can simply enjoy the game. Every game stern ships is perfectly playable and will get updates over time to get better/deeper/more fleshed out. We all know that, it's been the case with every game in the last decade. Delaying production of new games to make sure that rules only a fraction of users might ever see are completed doesn't make business sense at all. The first priority is survival and company income, which means games on the factory line. Getting the rules hyper detailed to satisfy collectors or high end players can be accomplished over time. Granted, most collectors including myself have never reached the code points that pinsiders complained about like it was critical for the game to operate Give it time to be updated, or give it time until you buy the game and life will be so much happier.

#732 3 years ago
Quoted from gamestencils:

Delaying production of new games to make sure that rules only a fraction of users might ever see are completed doesn't make business sense at all.

Remember, 9/10 is a fraction also. Don't mistake to think most updates from initial release will only be noticed by a small amount of users. It's really not true. Major strategies in the game change. Xmen, acdc, Metallica, walking dead - these games were dramatically different from initial release to end result.

#733 3 years ago

Do you think Stern feels when they ship a pin the code is good and done? Or are they knowingly sending out unfinished codes with a "we'll get to it later" attitude?

Personally I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they feel what they made is good and complete. Then we play the crap out of them and notice mistakes, and things that need improvements. Stern then has to go back and fix what they thought was finished which takes time.

I'm sure they have testers but their testers are no match for us

#734 3 years ago
Quoted from phillymadison:

Do you think Stern feels when they ship a pin the code is good and done? Or are they knowingly sending out unfinished codes with a "we'll get to it later" attitude?
Personally I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they feel what they made is good and complete. Then we play the crap out of them and notice mistakes, and things that need improvements. Stern then has to go back and fix what they thought was finished which takes time.
I'm sure they have testers but their testers are no match for us

They definitely have the "we'll get to it later" not because they want to but because of time constraints. Mind you GOT shipped with a lot of code done and Stern produced 20 updates in one year. Which is a great improvement from prior titles.

#735 3 years ago
Quoted from phillymadison:

Do you think Stern feels when they ship a pin the code is good and done? Or are they knowingly sending out unfinished codes with a "we'll get to it later" attitude?

Coders know quite clearly when their stuff isn't done... the project leads will know too (they aren't pinball illiterate). It's gotta be a conscious decision that says "Its good enough for what the schedule dictates right now"

The more vague debates I'm sure are around deciding which games should get priority AFTER they have started shipping... which work will give us the most return.

#736 3 years ago
Quoted from phillymadison:

Personally I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they feel what they made is good and complete.

You can't have played X-men just after its release then. I did - never owned it, but was fortunate enough to play one of the first games. I swear you can't start to imagine Stern did not know they were shipping a game with crippled code. It was a shame really.

#737 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Unfortunately, you misunderstood what I said. Software can be written in multiple teams where each team can be working on a game independently of another team. These numbers are examples. Suppose software needs about 1.6 years to complete its job but mechanical engineering only needs 1 year. Suppose the factory must run a minimum of 3 items per year for them to stay in business. Suppose the software cycle cannot begin until the game is 4 months into the mechanics. With this model you can have double the software teams as the mechanical teams and the software will always be done about a year after the game and the factory will always be running on schedule. This explains why the situation is as it is. Otherwise each game would need say another year of time before its release.

Would be fine if they had enough development teams to support this. What happens though is they get the game out the door and instead of continuing work, they dump it for another title. At some point they revisit it *if* it sells. The longer it sells the more they revisit it. If Stern works based on your example they need another developer team so that get around to finishing in a timely manner. I don't think anyone here is going to agree that 3 years for avengers is timely.

#738 3 years ago
Quoted from dung:

Would be fine if they had enough development teams to support this. What happens though is they get the game out the door and instead of continuing work, they dump it for another title. At some point they revisit it *if* it sells. The longer it sells the more they revisit it. If Stern works based on your example they need another developer team so that get around to finishing in a timely manner. I don't think anyone here is going to agree that 3 years for avengers is timely.

Avengers shipped pretty much complete from day 1. The rule set hasn't really changed much and the wizard mode was there etc. The recent update was *very* nice to have but not really necessary for a complete game. I think the dev teams actually considered it done when they released it so it wasn't a priority to work on it.

The same is untrue of the way twd, acdc, and Metallica shipped. No wizard modes, not a ton to do at initial launch. Games are great now.

Anyways, last year stern hired another development lead - Dwight. He finished Star Trek, did GoT and seemed to have most of what he wanted to do done at launch. He seems to be a productive programmer.

#739 3 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

You can't have played X-men just after its release then. I did - never owned it, but was fortunate enough to play one of the first games. I swear you can't start to imagine Stern did not know they were shipping a game with crippled code. It was a shame really.

I think this played a huge role in why XM was poorly received. I bought an XM Pro early on and the code it shipped with made the pin pretty much unplayable. That and all the hardware issues the LEs had. If it shipped with solid code and no hardware issues I think they would of sold enough to warrant running a Premium model. Cool theme and fun layout/design. It was a real shame and missed opportunity IMO. Code ended up being awesome and fit the theme perfectly but boy did it take a long time to get there.

#740 3 years ago
Quoted from gamestencils:

Stern isn't in business to satisfy the handful of Pinsiders that are going to complain about code no matter what they do, they are in business for the other 98% that really don't care and can simply enjoy the game. Every game stern ships is perfectly playable and will get updates over time to get better/deeper/more fleshed out.

Stern is wasting their time with deep rulesets because only 2% of their customers care about it?

#741 3 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

Stern is wasting their time with deep rulesets because only 2% of their customers care about it?

What percentage of sterns pins are home use? 2% seems really low...

#742 3 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

Stern is wasting their time with deep rulesets because only 2% of their customers care about it?

I most certainly did not say that, I said they are doing what any smart business should. Prioritize. If they put 80% of their resources to satisfy 2% of the customers that's really dumb business. If it's the other way around and they put 20% to satisfying the 2% other pins make it out the door on schedule and satisfy the vast majority but the more detailed updates take a little longer for the hardcore. In the end everyone's happy, albeit not as quickly as a select group would like it to be. That clarify what i'm trying to say?

#743 3 years ago
Quoted from gamestencils:

I most certainly did not say that, I said they are doing what any smart business should. Prioritize. If they put 80% of their resources to satisfy 2% of the customers that's really dumb business. If it's the other way around and they put 20% to satisfying the 2% other pins make it out the door on schedule and satisfy the vast majority but the more detailed updates take a little longer for the hardcore. In the end everyone's happy, albeit not as quickly as a select group would like it to be. That clarify what i'm trying to say?

KISS hasn't really had any material code updates in 6 months. That's not 'a little longer' IMO...and I don't consider myself 'hardcore' for wanting, at least, basic sounds (like outlane sounds) to be present when shipping.

Despite that though, I'm with you. They are focusing on cranking out pins, knowing they'll sell regardless of code status. It's smart. I just highly doubt they'd make the same decisions if they had real competitors.

#744 3 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

They definitely have the "we'll get to it later" not because they want to but because of time constraints. Mind you GOT shipped with a lot of code done and Stern produced 20 updates in one year. Which is a great improvement from prior titles.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE REAL FLASHINSTINCT!?!

#745 3 years ago

I believe supplying solid code on all current releases is important and will become even more important to sales in the future. Pin makers today seem to understand this and that is exactly why time and resources are dedicated solely to code fun/complete games.

I don't think today's market is anything like the market of the past. In the past it may have been mostly 'hard core' players that cared about the code. However, in today's market dominated by home use machines when owners dedicate so much money on a pin they want to be wowed and they notice when something is lacking. Perhaps dedicating so much $ to pins for our homes in itself makes us 'hard core' fans/addicts

#746 3 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE REAL FLASHINSTINCT!?!

When praised is deserved I give it. That simple.

#747 3 years ago
Quoted from gamestencils:

I most certainly did not say that, I said they are doing what any smart business should. Prioritize. If they put 80% of their resources to satisfy 2% of the customers that's really dumb business. If it's the other way around and they put 20% to satisfying the 2% other pins make it out the door on schedule and satisfy the vast majority but the more detailed updates take a little longer for the hardcore. In the end everyone's happy, albeit not as quickly as a select group would like it to be. That clarify what i'm trying to say?

I agree that 2% of the customers will never be happy, but far more than 2% care about a deep and complete ruleset. More realistically we are talking about 10-20% resource effort to satisfy 10-20% of customers, which is a justifiable business expense... and Stern largely executes on it. This thread tends to be complaints about games have that 1 bug, or that 1 unfinished mode, or that 1 rule that needs really tweaking but Stern will never fix.

#749 3 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

whatcha-gonna-code_(resized).png

Quoted from flashinstinct:

whatcha-gonna-code_(resized).png

LE's are already sold out.

Hasnt even been a gameplay video released.

-3
#750 3 years ago

Crazy. Can't wait for the code bitching in 6 months.

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