(Topic ID: 47867)

About growing pains, moderation, site bans, karma points etcetera


By robin

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by BLACK_ROSE
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    There are 256 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 6.
    13
    #1 6 years ago

    There has been a lot of talk about moderation and about the ban vote system this week and there is almost an equal amount of confusion surrounding this. I want to clear up some things!

    Growing pains
    First of all this: I'm generally very happy with the huge growth of the Pinside and the steadily increasing visitor numbers. It means pinball is gaining popularity once more and that there is growth in the hobby! But it also has some downsides. A lot more people to the party also means it's a lot more likely something breaks: a lot more bickering between users and a lot more negativity, something which Pinside always has tried to avoid. It's gettin' tougher to keep the positive vibe going with now nearly 500 people online at peak times and over 2500 posts daily.

    Moderation.
    Moderation is there to help make this place better. I know some people don't think it does, but there are plenty of unmoderated places on the web to go to, if you like to be a rebel or if you think it's cool to use profanity, attack others, write only negativity etc. Pinside is not the place for that. We have some community rules here to keep a positive pinball vibe going, the Pinside cannot exist without it. The mods are volunteers, hand-picked by me because of their levelheadedness and because they're around when I can't be. They do their best to make sure the site rules are lived by. Obviously the mods aren't without fault (who is?), and yes it's very tough to be consistent all the time. But all in all, I think they're doing a great job keeping the Pinside the goto place for pinball discussion, news and more! We might be needing more moderators soon, the ratio is currently 1 mod for 100 people

    The ban vote system.
    The ban vote system works like this (please read this as there seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding this subject): When you get 3 ban votes (a ban vote is a warning for breaking one of the Pinside community rules) from 3 different moderators that means you are banned from the site for one week. After that week, you are allowed back in. A ban vote will also subtract 20% of your karma total. If you get banned again the ban will be for two weeks. Etcetera.

    Thread kickouts.
    I'm currently thinking about ways to bring down the noise level, one of my ideas is a "thread kickout", where moderators (or maybe the community?) can kick users from a thread for repeatedly making off-topic posts in them. This would stop bickering between two or three users bringing down (derailing) a whole thread. I'd be happy to hear other suggestion to bring down the noise level on the site.

    Change to the Karma points system
    One final thought I'd like to throw out there is an alteration of the karma system. Maybe stop people from getting karma points for simply posting to the forum and only get them from thumbs up? Additionally I had this idea (specifically for the tech forums) where users can mark a posts as "the answer" to the issue. This would score extra karma points and promote helping others solve (technical) issues. A similar system is seen on sites like Stackoverflow.com. A final point brought up by some was changing the name of the karma points system because karma is not a pinball term. I'm open for suggestions

    Categories
    Adding more categories to have more ways top find interesting topics is still in the pipeline. I just haven't gotten round to it yet.

    #2 6 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    changing the name of the karma points system

    High score to date

    #3 6 years ago

    And change your title to Grand Champion

    I like the idea of ending karma for posts. I think that concept adds a lot of noise in itself. It seems people are using it for a ranking and therefore a lot of GLWYS entries do nothing for the thread, but do something for the person saying it.

    12
    #4 6 years ago

    A huge problem here is the 'for sale'/'for trade' posts. A guy should be able to post something for sale or trade in the appropriate sub forum and not get attacked and have his post turned upside down by a bunch of guys that don't agree with the price or details of the trade. Most of the time this is where the problems and attacks start. If we are going to continue to allow people to post stuff for sale or trade here we should look at a way for these posts to be 'locked' from outside comments by the OP. Most of these posts are not asking for comments or opinions just simply offering an item for sale or trade. It always turns negative somewhere along the line and then usually gets ugly... It would get rid of the negative and the positive (GLWS, wish I was closer, etc.) noise which is all worthless to the OP anyway.

    just my 2 cents.

    13
    #5 6 years ago

    People should be required to donate to post a FS/FT.

    #6 6 years ago

    I like how its working now......have the moderators be more of an enforcer in bad threads but everything else seems good. I do like the idea of thread kick outs (banning from a specific thread)

    #7 6 years ago
    Quoted from shlockdoc:

    People should be required to donate to post a FS/FT.

    Only if you can post these in peace!

    #8 6 years ago
    Quoted from teekee:

    A huge problem here is the 'for sale'/'for trade' posts. A guy should be able to post something for sale or trade in the appropriate sub forum and not get attacked and have his post turned upside down by a bunch of guys that don't agree with the price or details of the trade. Most of the time this is where the problems and attacks start. If we are going to continue to allow people to post stuff for sale or trade here we should look at a way for these posts to be 'locked' from outside comments by the OP. Most of these posts are not asking for comments or opinions just simply offering an item for sale or trade. It always turns negative somewhere along the line and then usually gets ugly... It would get rid of the negative and the positive (GLWS, wish I was closer, etc.) noise which is all worthless to the OP anyway.
    just my 2 cents.

    Isn't that what the market is for? If someone is interested in their pin they can PM and conduct their transaction in private. (sorry for the pronoun abuse)

    People put the FS/FT threads on the forums for additional exposure. Personally I never look at the market but I read a ton of FS/FT threads on pins I have zero interest in. I see two scenarios involving a sub-forum for sales.

    1. Fewer people go to that forum and sellers return to the main forum.

    2. People who want to complain about pinball economics head into that sub forum.

    By allowing responses to FS threads you're also allowing criticisms. I don't see a way around the complaints on FS threads with greatly increasing the amount of moderators.

    Opinions from a pinside newbie

    #9 6 years ago

    Or we can just use ignore features. You can moderate this site into an oblivion. All it will do is censor free thought and honest opinion. The current rules are appropriate. No hate speech, profanity or politics. That's enough and the way the site has ran until this point is what brought it's success. Why undermine it?

    13
    #10 6 years ago

    Too bad there isn't a way to automatically delete frivolous posts. There are some here who involve themselves in damn near every thread but mostly add nothing to them.

    It's tough enough keeping up on things without some needlessly adding to the traffic.

    I'm not sure about anyone else, but I don't really see karma points as something of "value." I use them more so as a gauge of how long someone has been involved here rather than rating the "quality" of their posts.

    #11 6 years ago

    hi robin,
    I love the change suggestions.

    here's a suggestion: how about 2 karma levels? one for the way that it currently resides and another for how helpful a person has been (in solving tech problems, providing solutions and/or information)

    I think that a lot of people have a high number of karma points merely be providing andotial quips rather than providing help.

    if you were to add a 2nd tkp (technical karma points) value, and maybe only allow the OP requesting the information to be able to technical "thumbs up" successive posts in that thread, it might help show which members are helpful for technical advice.

    just a thought

    #12 6 years ago

    here is another suggestion that might increase money donations . I belong to another site car related and when you make a donation in money through paypal . a star with the current year say 13 inside the star appears within your avatar ,this stays with your avatar forever . and people can see the years that you have donated. prowleronline.com does this.

    #13 6 years ago
    Quoted from shlockdoc:

    People should be required to donate to post a FS/FT

    I agree, posting in the marketplace or on the forum requires donation in the last year. Make the minimum donation $20 or something so people aren't donating $1 to "gain access"

    #14 6 years ago

    I agree that FS posts need not be attacked by anyone, I get some rare items in sometimes that I'd like to sell but don't want to be defending my choice of asking prices so I'll sit on them or sell them locally if possible. To be blunt about the matter, I don't bother posting FS's with prices on forums because of some people wanting something for nothing. They tend to be trouble starters in FS threads. Perhaps locking the FS posts out from replys (only PM's) is the best solution.

    While I'm on the FS wagon, perhaps Robin can have an area on each persons page where others can rate sales or buying transactions? Something like a 1 to 5 star rating system that keeps an average might work?

    While I'm still in blunt mode (a place I don't usually go), I notice a lot of people trying to help with tech answers, which is great, but the problem is that sometimes they're giving out the wrong info and the thread goes on forever until the answer is accidentally stumbled on to. A rating system would also work for people helping with tech, a person with a tech issue could then see who is helpful with certian problems and have a better idea as to who may be better suited to help them. Posting better information of the problem at hand usually will get the correct answer right away. This might cut down on a few of the guessing game posts going down the wrong path I've seen (or possibly contributed to) in the past here.

    I'm a guest in your house Robin, do what you like in it. I'll sit back and read now.

    Quoted from teekee:

    A huge problem here is the 'for sale'/'for trade' posts. A guy should be able to post something for sale or trade in the appropriate sub forum and not get attacked and have his post turned upside down by a bunch of guys that don't agree with the price or details of the trade. Most of the time this is where the problems and attacks start. If we are going to continue to allow people to post stuff for sale or trade here we should look at a way for these posts to be 'locked' from outside comments by the OP. Most of these posts are not asking for comments or opinions just simply offering an item for sale or trade. It always turns negative somewhere along the line and then usually gets ugly... It would get rid of the negative and the positive (GLWS, wish I was closer, etc.) noise which is all worthless to the OP anyway.
    just my 2 cents.

    #15 6 years ago

    I agree with the suggested FS restrictions.

    Make them unable to be replied to. If a buyer has a question, they can PM the OP. If the answer is useful to the sale, the OP can always add the info to the posting.

    MANY of the replies to FS adds add little value and tend to take the post OT anyways.... or try to not-so-subtlety add some backhanded criticism, then make it all better with a "GLWTS' (eyerolls implied).

    #16 6 years ago

    I agree that the FS threads tend to get beat up on . But I would urge caution on keeping them comment free. These threads help to educate us on market value of pins. (once you get past the rhetoric)

    #17 6 years ago
    Quoted from Skypilot:

    I agree that the FS threads tend to get beat up on . But I would urge caution on keeping them comment free. These threads help to educate us on market value of pins. (once you get past the rhetoric)

    I agree. I also appreciate when people make comments about having dealt with the seller in the past and how things went.

    -1
    #18 6 years ago

    I think there should be a ignore this person. Once you add a person to ignore list you do not see any of their post nor do they see yours. That will stop all the fighting real fast. We are have different opinions and will not always see eye to eye. Plus, it stop many on here that post a pop corn image and says wait for the fight or better term instigators.

    #19 6 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    I agree with the suggested FS restrictions.
    Make them unable to be replied to. If a buyer has a question, they can PM the OP. If the answer is useful to the sale, the OP can always add the info to the posting.
    MANY of the replies to FS adds add little value and tend to take the post OT anyways.... or try to not-so-subtlety add some backhanded criticism, then make it all better with a "GLWTS' (eyerolls implied).

    We kind of already have this ^ in the market for sale area. I think most understand that an add
    On the market forum is more effective, but seller beware as you may suffer the slings and arrows
    of the price police ect.
    It's a double edge sword, if you are unable to post on a market FS thread the thread would scroll
    down the page and be gone.
    No easy solutions here....

    Thanks for the site Robin I think that the good here out weighs the bad 10 fold.

    #20 6 years ago
    Quoted from wdpvideo:

    I think there should be a ignore this person. Once you add a person to ignore list you do not see any of their post nor do they see yours. That will stop all the fighting real fast. We are have different opinions and will not always see eye to eye. Plus, it stop many on here that post a pop corn image and says wait for the fight or better term instigators.

    Ignore option already exists. It is on every single post just to the right of the Quote link.

    Quoted from robin:

    Change to the Karma points system
    One final thought I'd like to throw out there is an alteration of the karma system. Maybe stop people from getting karma points for simply posting to the forum and only get them from thumbs up? Additionally I had this idea (specifically for the tech forums) where users can mark a posts as "the answer" to the issue. This would score extra karma points and promote helping others solve (technical) issues. A similar system is seen on sites like Stackoverflow.com. A final point brought up by some was changing the name of the karma points system because karma is not a pinball term. I'm open for suggestions

    I think implementing this change makes perfect sense. It would place value on the quality of the posts, rather than the quantity.

    Unless somebody thinks of something better, I don't see any reason to change it from being called "Karma" though.

    #21 6 years ago
    Quoted from jarjarisgod:

    Ignore option already exists. It is on every single post just to the right of the Quote link.

    Does it keep them from seeing my post? I tried it and it worked on my side!

    #22 6 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    I'm currently thinking about ways to bring down the noise level, one of my ideas is a "thread kickout", where moderators (or maybe the community?) can kick users from a thread for repeatedly making off-topic posts in them.

    This would be great. I've ignored a few people, but some threads are full of "ignored posts" and others responding to those posts. So even though I'm not seeing the actual content of that ignored user, they are still ruining the threads.

    Another idea: Perhaps some sort of review process for someone who has been ignored by x people. That alone should alert you and your mods to a disruptive force.

    Overall I love Pinside, I spend more time here than any other website. You've done a great job with it.

    #23 6 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    Moderation.
    Moderation is there to help make this place better. I know some people don't think it does, but there are plenty of unmoderated places on the web to go to, if you like to be a rebel or if you think it's cool to use profanity, attack others, write only negativity etc. Pinside is not the place for that. We have some community rules here to keep a positive pinball vibe going, the Pinside cannot exist without it. The mods are volunteers, hand-picked by me because of their levelheadedness and because they're around when I can't be. They do their best to make sure the site rules are lived by. Obviously the mods aren't without fault (who is?), and yes it's very tough to be consistent all the time. But all in all, I think they're doing a great job keeping the Pinside the goto place for pinball discussion, news and more! We might be needing more moderators soon, the ratio is currently 1 mod for 100 people .

    "levelheadedness? for the most part yes but you have a couple that have no business being moderators. mods aren't without fault? understatement. for the most part the do a fine job. there are a couple that have no business being moderators. I'd call them out here but I don't want another ban vote.

    #24 6 years ago
    Quoted from wdpvideo:

    Does it keep them from seeing my post? I tried it and it worked on my side!

    I believe they will still see your posts unless they decide to ignore you as well (but you won't see what they say).

    Quoted from edwinpblue:

    "levelheadedness? for the most part yes but you have a couple that have no business being moderators. mods aren't without fault? understatement. for the most part the do a fine job. there are a couple that have no business being moderators. I'd call them out here but I don't want another ban vote.

    Agreed.

    #25 6 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    Maybe stop people from getting karma points for simply posting to the forum and only get them from thumbs up?

    Same results. Some people or friends of people give thumbs up to their friends and it would run crazy just like it is now with lots of posts with less than a few words and no substance.

    LTG : )

    #26 6 years ago

    but this site is free , and free speach is part of north american society . you cannot have a one way arguement . once one person stops talking the arguement is over . lets not enable these thread wreckers and post remarks to their dumb comments and encourage them to respond. just my nickles worth , since we do not have cents in use any more

    #27 6 years ago

    I think people shouldn't take the points seriously. At all.

    I think the owner of Pinside should have fun with them. Erase them periodically. Invert them. Whatever. They're for fun.

    I think the reason this website is doing well is because whatever is being done simply works.

    Make a good faith effort to keep it clean and good spirited. Allow for some threads to occassionally be dirty and mean spirited when appropriate.

    Make more people moderators, and delegate more authority. But keep supreme power among the inner circle.

    It is a good community and site. Don't overengineer it and screw it up.

    #28 6 years ago
    Quoted from luch:

    but this site is free , and free speach is part of north american society . you cannot have a one way arguement . once one person stops talking the arguement is over . lets not enable these thread wreckers and post remarks to their dumb comments and encourage them to respond. just my nickles worth , since we do not have cents in use any more

    This is not an open forum.it is also owned not public .we are here as guests.

    #29 6 years ago

    It might be an idea to give the OP the ability to lock the thread. This way, if things so south, you don't have to wait for a Moderator to do it.
    A little more moderation will eventually weed out the people that just come here to be negative or Stir The Pot. The Mods are doing a fine job, but as you said, there needs to be more.

    #30 6 years ago

    This may be OT, but any chance of getting a useful forum search tool in the near future.

    #31 6 years ago

    I have an issue with the tilt function. If it takes three ban votes from mods to get just a 1 week suspension, but three tilt votes and your IP gets blocked permanently. I think that there's a little too much power there. Yes, I made just made another account. What I did was nowhere near NSFW.

    #32 6 years ago

    I think that Pinside is fine the way it is

    Sure, there seems to be a lot of noise here at the moment, but pinball is going through an upheaval at the moment
    New ways of marketing (LE's, premiums, pro's) and many new manufactures, is a good thing for pinball

    I would urge every one to hold on and ride this turbulence out as we will all be winners in the end

    #33 6 years ago
    Quoted from alveolus:

    This may be OT, but any chance of getting a useful forum search tool in the near future.

    There already is. Towards the top of the main page on the right.

    #34 6 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    changing the name of the karma points system because karma is not a pinball term. I'm open for suggestions

    Pin Points

    #35 6 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    Maybe stop people from getting karma points for simply posting to the forum and only get them from thumbs up?

    I agree with this.

    #36 6 years ago

    Robin, IMHO I believe that the Karma point system should be eliminated. I don't see any real value and see it as one of the main causes of frivolous posts and heavy traffic. Other than that one suggestion, Pinside is an outstanding forum. Thanks, Wally

    #37 6 years ago

    I'm very much in favor of changing the points system even though it doesn't really mean anything. I've got 10k+ and that's absurd. I think I offer a lot to most topics in which I post, and I am happy with what I write, but I have only very basic technical skills, currently own only one machine, and until the last year have been out of the pinball scene for more than a decade. I'm actually embarrassed by my "karma" total.

    I think getting points PER PAGE of threads that you started would be a good metric, as well as thumbs. Maybe a couple of points per "up" and one per "down"?

    Other than that I think the forum's great. I don't think I've ever frequented another site as much as Pinside.

    #38 6 years ago

    Whatever happens, happens and I'm happy to play that ball whichever way it rolls. It's just pinball folks - enjoy it.

    #39 6 years ago

    How about only giving Karma points for one post per thread, plus Karma for thumbs up.
    That would likely discourage frivolous posts where the poster is only motivated by Karma points.

    #40 6 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    That would likely discourage frivolous posts where the poster is only motivated by Karma points.

    Is there anyone who actually posts for karma though? I don't understand what the motivation would be.

    #41 6 years ago

    Great ideas Robin. There will always be a few that will be resistant to having their material edited or receiving a ban vote. If you disagree that is fine but arguing when asked to stop something by the staff and/or attacking moderators will not be tolerated. Robin has asked us to do what is needed to keep the tone positive here on Pinside and that is what we intend to do.

    We have a team that has contributed to this site for a long time and have made every effort to keep this a peaceful place for the community to discuss Pinball. We get just about no recognition for what we do so it makes it a little frustrating to see a few react negatively to our efforts but that is just the way it goes sometimes. I think it is important to remember we are all here because we love pinball. Pinsiders are a passionate group without a doubt the key is to try and respect our fellow posters and realize that we can disagree without taking things over the line.

    #42 6 years ago
    Quoted from navajas:

    Is there anyone who actually posts for karma though? I don't understand what the motivation would be.

    I see certain posters are posting 100's of posts a week with little of substance. Why are they posting if it is not for Karma points?

    #43 6 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    I see certain posters are posting 100's of posts a week with little of substance. Why are they posting if it is not for Karma points?

    True. Those same posters would have about 10K karma if they couldn't post the following:

    1. "Good luck with the sale!"
    2. "Congrats on the _____!"
    3. anything ending in .gif

    #44 6 years ago

    Well....I agree with the first 2.....

    ALL_Right.gif

    #45 6 years ago
    Quoted from spfxted:

    Well....I agree with the first 2.....

    No hard feelings, Ted, but sometimes I get .gif overload.

    #46 6 years ago
    Quoted from Skypilot:

    I agree that the FS threads tend to get beat up on . But I would urge caution on keeping them comment free. These threads help to educate us on market value of pins. (once you get past the rhetoric)

    Agreed. And sometimes learn about the machine itself, history, etc...
    Posting on FS thread on our french forum is not allowed, and I tend to regret that. Benefits overcome the pollution from nasty or useless comments.

    #47 6 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    How about only giving Karma points for one post per thread, plus Karma for thumbs up.

    ...or a declining number of points? 15 the first, then 10 then...
    (that's my second post on that thread !)

    #48 6 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    How about only giving Karma points for one post per thread, plus Karma for thumbs up.
    That would likely discourage frivolous posts where the poster is only motivated by Karma points.

    I would imagine others are like me. I pay no attention to thumbs up or down and have never used the feature.

    #49 6 years ago
    Quoted from jayhawkai:

    No hard feelings, Ted, but sometimes I get .gif overload.

    No hard feelings, Jay, but sometimes I get humorless people overload.

    13
    #50 6 years ago

    Tigerlaw, RobT, SPFXted and Gambit post a lot and I wouldn't say I learned anything new about fixing my pins, but reading their posts is one reason I log onto this site because I find it entertaining and enjoy most of the things they post about pinball. Congratulating Ted, Kwikimart, and others on 100 K Karma points were funny threads.

    Sometimes people post because they want to vent. Case in point the latest Stern debacle. Those threads got derailed, lots of hyperbole, but I think it was great for people to have a place to vent about feeling wronged. I really believe somebody from Stern gauged how angry their customer base was, and how their distributors were feeling heat, so Stern was quicker in their damage control because of it.

    I also feel that the huge threads with complaints about Stern's lack of X-men code reached Stern as many of the suggestions were implemented and some prominent posters on here became code testers. The 7k thread was a mess, but it was the thread that brought attention to the Aux. board problems, wolverine fix, and other things.

    Personally, I wouldn't mess with Pinside too much as the growth this recent year has been phenomenal. Designers and new company owners are posting inside information on new pins and their businesses, because they know they are reaching a huge number of pinball consumers.

    Incremental change could be a good thing, but I personally wouldn't like to see huge sweeping changes that might alter what caused Pinside to be what it has become. Robin has done a phenomenal job and the site is the best site for pinball.

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