(Topic ID: 57789)

AAB v Replay EM's Opinions


By Shapeshifter

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 193 posts
  • 52 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by boilerman
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    There have been 7 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    image-1 (1) (resized).jpg
    Flipper (resized).jpg
    GS rt sd cab wh gm 104.JPG
    248681-i.jpg
    $_57.jpg
    Lucky Hand Blob.jpg
    King Pin-Up.jpg

    There are 193 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 4.
    #51 5 years ago
    Quoted from leckmeck:

    Compare the amount of activity on Pin-Up to King Pin. The latter is much more exciting. POW!

    You know, it's odd. In looking at the two backglass photos side by side, something just struck me (no pun intended).
    As you said, the artwork on "King Pin" has more action; more pins flying, a guy jumping up in the background, etc.
    The chick with the mini skirt kind of blends into the general scene; she doesn't really stand out. The name of the machine is "King Pin", more of a reference to bowling itself, rather than to the hot chick on the backglass.
    On "Pin-Up", the focus is decidedly on the girl herself. Thus the name, "Pin-Up", a convenient play on words being that it's a bowling themed game. It could be that GM purposely toned down the bowling action excitement in the scene of the "King Pin" glass to focus more attention on the hot babe for the new add-a-ball version which someone decided to name "Pin-Up".
    See, I knew those art appreciation classes would come in handy someday!
    BTW- I do agree with you on those 'previous high score' boxes. They ruin the look of the AAB backglasses. For anyone doing repro AAB backglasses, please omit them.

    #52 5 years ago
    Quoted from cantbfrank:

    Great topic. But personally I like AAB. The main objective of pinball is to achieve High scores. AAB adds another element to the game with the purpose of improving you score.

    i suppose it depends upon your perspective... my main objective is to get to the first replay score and hopefully light the special, everything after that is gravy... a "high score" does give a nice satisfaction, but doing it within the construct of a 5 ball game isn't any less satisfactory than with "more balls"...

    Quoted from Gerry:

    This is 100% true, and always having a potentialy higher high score to beat is WAY WAY better than a free credit...

    perspective again... it could easily be argued achieving a high score within a fixed number of balls is even better than achieving it with an undetermined number of balls...

    Quoted from Gerry:

    AAB games have knockers too, and if your a good player they go off more than any replay game...

    true... but it just isn't the same for me... i admit that is a position born from emotion... that "knock" meant i got to push the button and play again...

    #53 5 years ago
    Quoted from jrpinball:

    BTW- I do agree with you on those 'previous high score' boxes. They ruin the look of the AAB backglasses. For anyone doing repro AAB backglasses, please omit them.

    but... but... but... it wouldn't look original...

    #54 5 years ago
    Quoted from ccotenj:

    but... but... but... it wouldn't look original...

    It wouldn't be original anyway with a repro backglass. If you wanted to have the little box, you could make a sticker or something which is what they should have done in the first place. For the most part, these boxes detract from the look of the backglass, although some are less obtrusive than others.
    See you at Vic's tomorrow?

    #55 5 years ago
    Quoted from ccotenj:

    but... but... but... it wouldn't look original...

    That really is a horrible idea. Why would you want to remove those when they are part of the AAB charm?

    I'm sure this would cost anybody doing repros some sales. Makes no sense.

    The box is very small, and I and many others actually use them. It's fun to have a high score or two in there.

    #56 5 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    That really is a horrible idea. Why would you want to remove those when they are part of the AAB charm?
    I'm sure this would cost anybody doing repros some sales. Makes no sense.
    The box is very small, and I and many others actually use them. It's fun to have a high score or two in there.

    I doubt Ron or Shay, or anyone else making repros will actually omit the boxes unless it's a one-off glass and it's requested to be omitted by the customer.
    We never used the box to keep our high scores back in the day. A strip of masking tape with all the pertinent data would do the trick. We probably started doing this because there was a "Top Card" at the local arcade which was converted to add-a-ball, and we used to get gigantic scores on it. Being originally a replay game, it lacked the high score box, so we kept track of the high score on the masking tape.
    Someone made a "Flipper Fair" repro glass years ago that was missing the "tilt". I'm sure that was an oversight.

    #57 5 years ago

    Having had more time on a ton of games, I don't seem to click with the 60's AAB games and prefer replays for that era.

    But, I really like the WOW era in the 70's and every now and then you get a big game, that is a real rush. And I like you can only get a maximum of 5 WOW's on some games.

    So far not found any WOW games too easy, as too easy does equal boring. Square Head AAB was too easy though.

    #58 5 years ago
    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    Square Head AAB was too easy though.

    Really? "Square Head"? You usually have to lose a ball to get a ball on that game via the gobble holes. Those two skinny lanes on the left and right side are not really easy to make consistently when they're lit for extra ball.
    I've never really had an overly extended session on that game.

    #59 5 years ago
    Quoted from jrpinball:

    I doubt Ron or Shay, or anyone else making repros will actually omit the boxes unless it's a one-off glass and it's requested to be omitted by the customer.

    You're right about that!

    When Ron released his Lucky Hand backglass a few years ago, I inquired on RGP if it contained the "black blob" that was present on the original backglass. It's something I figure was the result of a minor defect in the black screen when the original backglass was printed in 1977. It's a negligible detail, but I was just curious. Ron heard about my question and he took to RGP to defend his work. Of course the reproduction backglass has the blob! His licensing agreement forbids him from taking any kind of creative liberties. I felt bad that my question was interpreted as criticism, but I had my answer.

    Later, BGResto repaired a Lucky Hand backglass, and it appears they decided to remove the black blob from the artwork.

    Lucky Hand Blob.jpg

    So if you want to get an AAB glass with no hi-score box, BGResto is the way to go.

    #60 5 years ago
    Quoted from jrpinball:

    Really? "Square Head"? You usually have to lose a ball to get a ball on that game via the gobble holes. Those two skinny lanes on the left and right side are not really easy to make consistently when they're lit for extra ball.
    I've never really had an overly extended session on that game.

    I suspect then that it may not have been set up right as I seemed to get extra balls very easily and I wasn't losing a ball to get a ball!

    #61 5 years ago
    Quoted from leckmeck:

    Here are some disparate observations I have on the subject:
    The replay wheel is a fun tally of how badly you "beat" a game, but if it still has leftover credits on it and you max the wheel out on your current game, the knocker is silent when you hit a special. I rarely have to put credits on my Spin-A-Card because it's always hovering around 9-12 replays, so some games end with dead specials. Bummer.
    Some AABs can be changed to novelty mode where specials earn points instead of balls. In this mode, the number of balls is fixed. This seems like a good option for truly skilled players who dislike AAB games for their interminable game length. I'm a mediocre player, so AAB mode suits me fine.
    The backglass artwork for AAB games is sometimes inferior because the artist has to sacrifice detail on the front to reserve space for the previous hi-score box and the lights representing additional balls or extra-high scores. Compare the amount of activity on Pin-Up to King Pin. The latter is much more exciting. POW!

    But I own and enjoy both AAB and replay games. It's all pinball, all fun.

    King Pin-Up.jpg 181 KB

    And this is the Maresa King Pin backglass - different again. Acrylic as well.

    $_57.jpg

    248681-i.jpg

    #62 5 years ago
    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    And this is the Maresa King Pin backglass - different again. Acrylic as well

    Maresa is just bleah, but I really love the purple theme on Pin Up, mine went to a worthy collection.

    #63 5 years ago

    To each his own, but it's AAB for me.

    #64 5 years ago

    I like Target Pool over Mini Pool. I like the harder rule set on Target Pool, along with the artwork

    #65 5 years ago

    kin pin BG has to much red everything kind of blends together, pin up is nicer
    Maresa looks washed out and faded
    king pin is a better player IMO
    shay is going to do king pin BG soon and webb is doing pin up
    i don't think i have ever seen either one with a perfect bg
    so i am sure many would like a repro. i know i am getting a king pin

    #66 5 years ago
    Quoted from boilerman:

    i don't think i have ever seen either one with a perfect bg

    They are rare indeed. I had the pleasure of restoring a low plays Pin Up last year (remember the thread?) Perfect glass, and no kick out hole wear!

    #67 5 years ago
    Quoted from stashyboy:

    They are rare indeed. I had the pleasure of restoring a low plays Pin Up last year (remember the thread?) Perfect glass, and no kick out hole wear!

    I met the owner of it at Vic Camp's. That's gotta be one of the most cherry ones on the planet.

    #68 5 years ago

    Dimension follow-up:

    I'm really trying to give aab's a chance as I'm a replay guy through and through. I replaced a couple drop target's, adjusted a few kick-outs, and worked on the flippers and pops. Best score so far is 67,000. Don't laugh. My question to you aab guru's is what's a good high score on a game like this? Do you guys roll these over pretty easy?

    I do agree this does have a good ruleset.

    #69 5 years ago
    Quoted from ccotenj:

    Gerry said:
    AAB games have knockers too, and if your a good player they go off more than any replay game...

    true... but it just isn't the same for me... i admit that is a position born from emotion... that "knock" meant i got to push the button and play again...

    That knock means i just saved my ASS, and that game from ending short of yet another one of my goals...

    #70 5 years ago
    Quoted from hoov:

    Dimension follow-up:
    I'm really trying to give aab's a chance as I'm a replay guy through and through. I replaced a couple drop target's, adjusted a few kick-outs, and worked on the flippers and pops. Best score so far is 67,000. Don't laugh. My question to you aab guru's is what's a good high score on a game like this? Do you guys roll these over pretty easy?
    I do agree this does have a good ruleset.

    Even on "Dimension" you can have the occasional stinker game. You can get a truly massive score as well. You should be able to roll it over if you get a fair amount of extra balls via the "WOW". It's not a really big scoring game; points can be hard to come by. Although it's tempting to whack away at the "cherries" when the "WOW" is lit, keeping the ball up near the top of the playfield can accelerate your score because the holes corresponding to the groups of completed drop targets are now each worth 3000 points, and the pop bumpers are worth 1000 points. If you have the ball counter pinned at 10, get the ball up to the top and try to keep it there as long as you can. The game has some tough angles, and the balls can drain just as quickly as you can accumulate them. It takes a little while to get used to the shots.

    #71 5 years ago
    Quoted from jrpinball:

    Even on "Dimension" you can have the occasional stinker game. You can get a truly massive score as well. You should be able to roll it over if you get a fair amount of extra balls via the "WOW". It's not a really big scoring game; points can be hard to come by. Although it's tempting to whack away at the "cherries" when the "WOW" is lit, keeping the ball up near the top of the playfield can accelerate your score because the holes corresponding to the groups of completed drop targets are now each worth 3000 points, and the pop bumpers are worth 1000 points. If you have the ball counter pinned at 10, get the ball up to the top and try to keep it there as long as you can. The game has some tough angles, and the balls can drain just as quickly as you can accumulate them. It takes a little while to get used to the shots.

    Thanks jr for the info.. I have it set on 5-ball currently.

    #72 5 years ago

    Interesting subject. Being new to the EM experience I really don't have much of an opinion on this. I would say that if a pin is easy to keep adding a ball, that could get old fairly quick. As long as it's a challenge to add a ball, I would be cool with that.

    OP should add a poll.

    #73 5 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    Interesting subject. Being new to the EM experience I really don't have much of an opinion on this. I would say that if a pin is easy to keep adding a ball, that could get old fairly quick. As long as it's a challenge to add a ball, I would be cool with that.
    OP should add a poll.

    The manufacturers made add-a-ball machines to skirt the anti-gambling laws that some states and localities had, or even still have (I believe it is still illegal to this day to win a replay on a pinball machine in New York). Growing up with them here in NY state, I've come to like them very much. When you were a kid and had only a few dollars or maybe just a quarter or two to plunk into a machine, you tried to extend your play for as long as possible, and you also tried to get a stratospheric high game which would sometimes stand for months until someone else achieved a better score.
    In places where it was legal to win replays, the goal was to rack up as many free games as you could, and I understand the value of this to a kid who had a limited amount of change to play pinball with. That to me is the primary difference between replay and add-a-ball games, but it's basically the same thing; extending your playtime as a result of your skill. Replay games reset and start a new five ball game with somewhat limited scoring potential, and add-a-ball games extend the current game, allowing for an open-ended high score. They are both fun in their own right, but I believe the objective of pinball is to get as high a score as possible. You're somewhat limited with only five balls on a replay machine, but sometimes five balls is all you want to play.

    #74 5 years ago
    Quoted from jrpinball:

    The manufacturers made add-a-ball machines to skirt the anti-gambling laws that some states and localities had, or even still have (I believe it is still illegal to this day to win a replay on a pinball machine in New York). Growing up with them here in NY state, I've come to like them very much. When you were a kid and had only a few dollars or maybe just a quarter or two to plunk into a machine, you tried to extend your play for as long as possible, and you also tried to get a stratospheric high game which would sometimes stand for months until someone else achieved a better score.
    In places where it was legal to win replays, the goal was to rack up as many free games as you could, and I understand the value of this to a kid who had a limited amount of change to play pinball with. That to me is the primary difference between replay and add-a-ball games, but it's basically the same thing; extending your playtime as a result of your skill. Replay games reset and start a new five ball game with somewhat limited scoring potential, and add-a-ball games extend the current game, allowing for an open-ended high score. They are both fun in their own right, but I believe the objective of pinball is to get as high a score as possible. You're somewhat limited with only five balls on a replay machine, but sometimes five balls is all you want to play.

    Agree with what jr said about replay games adding that our dual objective was to light special to win replays and also to achieve the high scores for replays also. Mainly, we wanted to get the highest score possible with the most replays possible.

    #75 5 years ago

    As a 90's kid who has zero nostalgia factor, my opinion is that AAB is the only logical choice for a home environment due to credits being worthless. All other arguments are emotionally biased.

    All other arguments are NOT emotionally biased. Other than the flipper series, Majorettes, Big Top and maybe a few others, Gtb. designed all playfields as replay games. Since the average production run of most AAB is 500-700 units, while replay versions averaged 5X that amount, it's easy to see why AAB was not the primary focus, and with the objective's reward being so different, along with the number of balls to get there, very few games cross over to AAB without areas of inferiority.
    It works the other way as well. Flipper Fair and Flipper Cowboy are great originally designed AAB games. The attempted replay counterparts appearing later, (Buckaroo, Cross Town), seem to have design flaws, the details having been beaten to death in several other threads.
    In some cases, both versions work well, and I happen to like both. It is rather apparent though, replay versions were what brought the revenue in. Dedicating a design team for the AAB market was simply cost prohibitive.

    #76 5 years ago

    I have my single player Gulfstream set to AAB. It is easily switched to Replay also. Nice option on this game that is a true AAB game. When I played arcades when I was young, I always liked replay games better than AAB for some reason.

    #77 5 years ago
    Quoted from Chet:

    I have my single player Gulfstream set to AAB. It is easily switched to Replay also. Nice option on this game that is a true AAB game. When I played arcades when I was young, I always liked replay games better than AAB for some reason.

    It is these era Single Player williams games that I like because they are also "Both" AAB and Replay at the same time. "Special" features on the playfield will award an extra ball (in Balls to Play format up to 9 or 10) and Score Thresholds as well as very special playfield features like the 4 corners on Gulfstream or the 3 Wagons on Klondike can award multiple replays. So, you get the best of both worlds. What makes it better for me, is that unlike the pure AAB games, they don't go on forever since it typically takes a number of balls to complete the playfield specials. So ultimately, you get to slightly extend your game but also get to rack up Replays to try again.

    #78 5 years ago

    Bally "Hi-Deal" is the same way. It can be a true add-a-ball and a replay machine simultaneously. Great game too!

    #79 5 years ago

    I put my Neptune on novelty mode, and it is pretty nice. I love that the knocker goes off a lot
    I think it will stay like that for a while, 5 balls only and score goes up to 1,000.0000

    #80 5 years ago

    I don't have a lot of recent experience comparing AAB to replay version of the same game. But in general, I really like the AAB for home use. Why? As others have noted, replays are meaningless (other than attaining a pre-set score) whereas the added ball helps you toward an all-time best score (or beating an opponent). As for the knocker, getting the added balls (like GTB WOWs) is crazy satisfying, with multiple knocks possible. A replay just gives you 1 knock per game (or maybe a 2nd some time later, if there are 2 replay levels). And they don't affect the game score, just indicate you hit a preset level.

    I have owned a Gold Strike for a looooong time. The only thing that's kind of lame is that the A-B-C lights don't reset between balls. Once you light them, they stay lit for the whole game. (Can someone come up with a mod for this? Might just be a wire or 2 jumpered from the ball counter to the A-B-C reset switches?)

    But for thrills, the GS AAB really makes every game a 'sudden death' scenario. If you're running out of balls, that last target or 2 is the difference between failure and a chance to 'revive' your game with added balls. And once you do light the WOW, it is really tense because a drain is a major fail, and all those yellow dots are real opportunities to recharge the game. Also, GS (like Target Alpha, Solar City, El Dorado, etc.) has fairly wide-spaced flippers, lively steep slings, and merciless wood/wire outlanes. So draining a ball or 2 quickly happens a lot. The drainability combined with the difficulty of getting all targets to ight the WOW make this particular AAB a very challenging/rewarding title.

    One question (again, based on some lack of recent/general experience): can anyone comment on the 'switchable' games that an be set for replay or AAB? Do the rules vary much between the 2 settings? (general or specific game comments welcome!)

    #81 5 years ago
    Quoted from StevenP:

    One question (again, based on some lack of recent/general experience): can anyone comment on the 'switchable' games that an be set for replay or AAB? Do the rules vary much between the 2 settings? (general or specific game comments welcome!)

    There are only a few games that are convertible to true AAB play. The ones that say "convertible to add-a-ball" on the flyer (such as "Target Alpha" and other multi-player games), are not capable of true AAB play. They simply have a "same player shoots again" feature. There is no way to accumulate multiple extra balls that can be played off consecutively as on a true add-a-ball game.

    #82 5 years ago
    Quoted from StevenP:

    As others have noted, replays are meaningless (other than attaining a pre-set score)

    It seems as if this phrase keeps getting recycled ^^^

    As others meaning players that grew up/like playing aab games.

    Since about 75% of the em games are replay games that are in collections, that tells me that replays are not meaningless and are very important to us that grew up playing replays. Also, besides the pre-set scores which I call the high scores, the goal of the game is to reach special for another way to win replays. Still exciting after all these years.

    Replays, aab's, re-aab, and multi-players are all fun games - just different strokes for different folks.

    #83 5 years ago
    Quoted from jrpinball:

    There are only a few games that are convertible to true AAB play. The ones that say "convertible to add-a-ball" on the flyer (such as "Target Alpha" and other multi-player games), are not capable of true AAB play. They simply have a "same player shoots again" feature. There is no way to accumulate multiple extra balls that can be played off consecutively as on a true add-a-ball game.

    A true AAB will have lights on the lower back glass for individual balls, usually up to 10 balls. As balls are earned the lights shift to the right adding another ball, as you drain, the ball light goes to the left reducing the ball count by one.

    #84 5 years ago
    Quoted from StevenP:

    I don't have a lot of recent experience comparing AAB to replay version of the same game. But in general, I really like the AAB for home use. Why? As others have noted, replays are meaningless (other than attaining a pre-set score) whereas the added ball helps you toward an all-time best score (or beating an opponent).

    If that's the case, why are the value of AAB Games still lagging slightly behind their replay counterparts?? It would seem to me since you say, "Others have noted, replays are meaningless," and the logic that high scores make for the perfect forum of competition, that AAB Game values would sky-rocket. That has NOT happened! Not even with the fact that many people getting into the hobby today haven't even seen EM's in commercial use.
    Please explain this to me WITHOUT mentioning sentiment, as this is NOT the reason. EM's haven't been around in numbers for quite a while, and the guys getting into the hobby now, as noted, have never seen them in a commercial setting. The guys longing to re-live their past pinball memories already have those games and are in their 50's and 60's by now. Why haven't the younger hobbyists taken to the AAB Game?
    I'll try to answer my own question........... The superior playing original replay design is a perfect fit for a 5-ball game. 5 balls, not 10, not 15, 25. The depth and challenge are perfect for 5 balls. Adding multiple balls to a normal, relatively simple EM ruleset would make play rather boring. Altering the playfield of a 5-ball game, "On the cheap," to comply with certain laws had to result in some failures, large and small along the way. Naturally, there are exceptions, but they are few and far.........
    Many have probably read my whining over the above captioned statement in the senior forum. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, just hate to see this replay game "Mindset." There's a reason AAB Game values haven't increased, and those that chose the AAB Versions because, "Replays are meaningless in the home environment," are probably missing out on some of Gottlieb's best designed games!

    #85 5 years ago
    Quoted from StevenP:

    replays are meaningless (other than attaining a pre-set score)

    I know this debate will never end, but I think it interesting to point out that this statement is inaccurate. Yes, *some* replays can be awarded for achieving scoring levels (as set by adjustment plugs in the backbox), but they are *also* awarded for achieving the objectives of the game, in the form of playfield "specials" (aka, the "special when lit" stuff). Achieving the specials is really beating the game, and doing so on a set number of balls to play is what makes it exciting. That's the most satisfying way to get the knocker going.

    Heck, just unplug the replay score level plugs and play to beat the *game* - that's pinball.

    The games that don't have any playfield specials tend to suffer in the collector market as a result (I'm sure there are exceptions, but I'm drawing a blank on any at the moment!).

    When folks talk about that 'got so close, play it again' factor, it's about nearly completing the objective and beating the game. On several EMs, it takes strategy to complete the objective (including intentionally sacrificing a ball in play, if it gets a needed feature), and isn't always about simply getting higher scores.

    IMHO, YMMV.

    #86 5 years ago

    I love both styles of gameplay, not limiting yourself is very liberating.

    #87 5 years ago
    Quoted from AlexF:

    I love both styles of gameplay, not limiting yourself is very liberating.

    Oh, I agree. I think that each title should be evaluated on its own merits. Being an AAB or replay alone doesn't automatically make it a great game.

    (But the problem with not limiting yourself is that it quickly liberates all your funds and space... )

    #88 5 years ago
    Quoted from DirtFlipper:

    (But the problem with not limiting yourself is that it quickly liberates all your funds and space... )

    That is all too true.

    I should limit myself to collecting AAB wood rails from 1960. Then I'd have space and funds after the initial purchase.

    #89 5 years ago

    I do think in a home collection, whatever your preference, having both provides best of all worlds.

    I prefer replay but it is a great feeling when down to a final ball and having a bad game to pull it back from the brink, and get extra balls.

    I would like to play all the Flipper AAB games as they were designed to be AAB.

    #90 5 years ago
    Quoted from jrpinball:

    There are only a few games that are convertible to true AAB play. The ones that say "convertible to add-a-ball" on the flyer (such as "Target Alpha" and other multi-player games), are not capable of true AAB play. They simply have a "same player shoots again" feature. There is no way to accumulate multiple extra balls that can be played off consecutively as on a true add-a-ball game.

    There appear to be several convertible games--true ones, with "balls to Play" displays that go up to (usually) 10 balls. And they are single-player games. Those are the ones I'm referring to.

    I also didn't realize that the "replays are useless in a home game" statement was so controversial. I'm not speaking from sentiment, but from playing experience and a bit of logical thinking. (I thought I explained it earlier, but somehow it seems to have been missed.) I read the other comments and none seem to disprove this assessment. For the record, I grew up playing replay games (in MA). And I have owned an AAB game (Gold Strike) for a long time.

    So, what is the purpose of a replay? It gives you a **free game** if you reach a certain score. When I was a kid, that saved a quarter! (As did a match.) But in a home collection, all the games are already free! So the main joy of a replay (getting to play another game at no cost to you) is gone. You want a knocker to go off when you reach an arbitrary score? OK. Doesn't change the game tho. Adding balls to extend a game and get higher scores does.

    And, from personal experience, the excitement of being close to activating the AAB feature (WOW or Special) to have a chance at adding balls and extending your game (with the possibility of draining and ending what could be an epic game if you get those added balls!) is much greater than activating and scoring a special just to say "I did it" and get an extra credit, when all games are free at home anyway. The AAB adds to the game itself; the replay is more like making the high score list on a modern game. People who say replays are better in a home pin (apart from rules-based differences) are the ones being emotional/nostalgic here, imo.

    The argument that replays are more common or more pricey in today's market is silly imo. For one, AABs were made for one particular sub-market--states in which winning replays was illegal. So of course production numbers for replay games was greater. And, ON LOCATION, people would rather win a free game than extra balls. (We all know that you could sell the credits you earned if you didn't want to play them; not possible with an AAB game.) But in a home game? Seriously, winning an extra game means nothing. The next game is free anyway, and you aren't selling the credits you earned.

    Yep, replay versions are better for competition, because the number of balls is fixed (apart from an EB or 2). But most EMs used in competition are multiplayer games. Here we are comparing 2 versions of a single-player game. And for home use. AAB gives you a chance to get real high scores based on your ability to extend your game--it's open-ended. Replay games give you a chance to reach a pre-set score (which you can also do to earn an EB in an AAB game) or light a Special (again, also in an AAB game) but in a replay the special doesn't affect your score. In an AAB it does.

    Pricing is not really a good gauge here. For starters, the EM market is pretty thin relative to modern games. And if anything, AAB games tend to be more rare (smaller market required them), and are often more expensive because of rarity.

    Design and rules is a real factor, I'll admit, and I don't know enough of the subtle details to compare the versions in general. If true that most games were designed as replays and that AAB was just a mod where the rules aren't as good, then yeah, those replay games may be more fun and better for home use. No argument there. AAB vs. Replay for quality of rules may depend on the particular game design. But the replay itself is meaningless (apart from nostalgia) when the game is set on free play. I have one familiar example, Gold Strike vs. El Dorado, and (apart from never resetting the ABC lights on GS) I prefer the GS gameplay over ED. My GS plays strong and clean, with lively slings, and it is NOT easy to light the WOW and add balls. It IS easy to drain 2-3 balls in a row quickly. Many games are in the 30-50k range (with experienced, ranked players). My EBs are set at 60k, 120k, 170k (and repeat at 120 and 170 when the game is rolled over again). It is uncommon to get over 200k. All time high score is 840k (by a friend who beat my all-time best of 816k). But those are the exceptions. Most games are tough, and lighting the WOW to extend a game and get 100k or 200k is a real accomplishment. The excitement of playing El Dorado is not the same IME.

    I'm sure there are dissenting opinions, but these are mine. And they are based on reasoning and play experience, not nostalgic memories. Simply stated, in freeplay home use, AAB gives you a chance to extend your game, whereas replay merely lets you win meaningless credits or light meaningless specials to give you credits that don't affect your score.

    #91 5 years ago

    as noted in a previous post, perspective is everything.... from where i sit, i'd disagree with most of the above, but your games aren't in my house... if that is what you prefer, i have no issues with that...

    #92 5 years ago
    Quoted from StevenP:

    Simply stated, in freeplay home use, AAB gives you a chance to extend your game, whereas replay merely lets you win meaningless credits or light meaningless specials to give you credits that don't affect your score.

    I guess we (you and me) look at it differently. To me, the "Meaningless" credits or specials DO mean something to me just like your high scores mean something to you. In fact, all time High Scores are "meaningless" to ME. Plenty of us "replay" people play our games paying attention to how many credits we "racked up" during a single game. Just like you pay attention to chasing a super high score. Some of us even put our games on Coin Play so we can gauge the value or return for the purchased credit and awarded replays even though they are still technically free. But for us, we perhaps like the idea of a finite limit to how long a game should last or go on. I have said it several times, I consider most AAB games (the ones specifically designed to be AAB only) to be perpetual Hell! Just like many of Today's DMD collectors complain about many Stern games lasting 20 minutes or more to complete a game of 3 balls. EMs were never designed around having marathon games. Early games were designed to be gambling devices. Later, when they were specifically engineered for Amusement and replays, they were designed around a target average game time of 2 1/2 to 3 minutes and a replay award of around 30% (although I have read it stated to be as high as 50%). And as you stated, AAB games were designed for a specific territory to get around very strict coin op laws. They were not the "norm" for any of the manufacturers. If these laws did not exist, neither would the AAB game.

    Mr./Mrs. AAB sees two goals in front of him/her on your AAB game: A sequence feature to be completed to light the WOW/Special, and an End of Game High Score. And you get the added benefit of getting additional extra balls as you reach the score thresholds (ie 60K, 120K, 170K) and as you are awarded WOWs on the playfield. Which in all practicality, could allow you to extend your game indefinitely.

    Mr./Mrs. Replay sees two goals in front of him/her: A sequence feature to complete to light specials and Score Thresholds to beat to award a Replay. And, if it so matters to him/her (which it really doesn't to me) logging an all time high score.

    First off, let me state that no one likes a game that is either too easy or impossible to win/beat. So playing a poorly shopped game is as disappointing as playing a game that ends up being way too easy to continually beat. So yes, games can be set up hard, or easy. And are typically tailored to the owner's ability.

    Although it varies from game to game, there are typically two types of AAB ruleset. From how I understand it, most allow you to light the WOW. Once lit, you are allowed to shoot for it. Once you get it, it will only remain lit as long as the ball remains on the playfield. Other games award a WOW upon ball drain and then reset the sequence. Some games award a single WOW and then reset the sequence while the ball is still on the playfield.

    For the most part, the Replay counterparts allow you to light the Special which then remains lit until the end of your game (3/5 balls). So, we are limited in the time frame (balls per play) of completing the sequence, and limited on the number of replays we can be awarded (credit wheel limit 5, 10, 15 etc.)

    And your comment about it being all about Nostalgic memories or personal sentiment is somewhat funny to me since most "collectors" are doing so for just that reason. If you want to discuss it in the context of operating EM games or even early solid state games, my argument for replay would be even stronger.

    #93 5 years ago

    Blue Chip is a truly convertable game, and much better in AAB IMO...

    I miss my BC !

    #94 5 years ago

    Funny, apparently I'm being classified as an "AAB person." I'm really not. And I didn't know it was an "us vs. them" thing. I grew up playing replay games, enjoy both, and don't think one is inherently better than another.

    I agree totally that any EM is fun if it's well set-up with good rules and goals. I also agree that an AAB is boring if it leads to consistent marathon games. I have not played one like that--my GS and a few others I've played are pretty hard games, where adding balls is difficult to do. A marathon game with a really high score is the rare exception on the AABs I've played.

    And, as others have noted, games that were designed as replay games may have better rules than the AAB counterparts. Those versions would be better, even in a home environment. (I can't name any specific examples but I'm sure they exist!) OTOH, some games designed as AABs may well have better rules than the replay counterparts. My main comment is NOT that AABs are "better" than replays, but simply that the replay FEATURE itself is marginalized/irrelevant (imo) in a home environment, because it doesn't add to the game strategy and just adds a credit on a game where credits are free anyway (unlike when playing the games of my youth on location). You can reach high scores and get knocks for hitting preset scores (usually for an EB) on AABs as well as on replays. I guess you can't count credits on the reel though, but how many credits can you win from a single replay game anyway? Generally just one, sometimes two?

    For the record, I have (only) 4 EM games currently: an AAB (Gold Strike), a 4-player replay (Mars Trek), a convertible (Blue Chip), and a time-based game (Travel Time--where does that fit in?). So I think my personal games are pretty well-balanced in that respect.

    Quoted from ccotenj:

    as noted in a previous post, perspective is everything.... from where i sit, i'd disagree with most of the above, but your games aren't in my house... if that is what you prefer, i have no issues with that...

    Checked out your games and it's a great line-up! I'd be happy to own/play your games anytime. Have particular fondness for pro-football and jacks open and target pool, and the others are fun too. Wish I had more room, but not an option for now.

    #95 5 years ago
    Quoted from StevenP:

    I guess you can't count credits on the reel though, but how many credits can you win from a single replay game anyway? Generally just one, sometimes two?

    On mid-60's through end of EM period Gottliebs, up to 15 replays can be earned (with the exception of the few games from '75-'76 that used the 'half-moon' credit unit, which only goes to 9).

    On woodrails to mid-60's, up to 26 replays can be earned. On some Williams woodrail games, they used a three digit counter, so one could earn a couple hundred.

    If thinking of the replay as only being a 'credit' equating to monetary value, then sure, in a home environment it would have no 'monetary value'. But that's not the point of the replay from a playing perspective. It counts how often you beat the game, achieved the objectives, made the right skill shots, etc. - and from a fixed vantage point (i.e., 3 or 5 balls).

    With replay games, you get to enjoy two indicators of your skill on the game: the score, and the replay count. With an AAB game, there's only the score, and no reference point as to how it was accomplished. And once the score rolls over, there's no other indicator of the achievement.

    Racking up the replay count on a really good game with only 3 or 5 balls to do so has nothing to do with monetary 'credits'.

    #96 5 years ago

    I completely agree with Dirt about the replay part. The value is in beating the game or achieving the objectives. I can certainly appreciate that in a replay game. Hearing the knocker is always rewarding and loading up that credit wheel always feels good.

    With that said I think there is also "value" in hearing the knocker in an AAB game. You're right there is technically only one indicator in the end of your accomplishment, the score. But the rush is there when the knocker goes off as you just went into overtime. Maybe giving you an opportunity to reach a personal best.

    I had Pop-A-Card (AAB) over the Winter. My goal was to roll the score. Getting close is what kept me pressing that start button over and over. Now I have Teacher's Pet (replay). My goal is to spell Teacher's Pet and try to cash in on that special. It's exhilarating for me to reach the goal either way. It's all fun to me AAB or replay, as long as the goal isn't too easy to reach.

    #97 5 years ago
    Quoted from StevenP:

    I guess you can't count credits on the reel though, but how many credits can you win from a single replay game anyway? Generally just one, sometimes two

    Sorry, I didn't mean to clasify you as an AAB person or start an Us Vs. Them fight. I was only trying to convey that there is a significance to a Replay to many of us. And to expand on what Dirtflipper has pointed out, yes, you can get more than 1 or 2 replays on a single game. That is the rush I am trying to convey. Most Gott. single player games have that "almost got it. Just one more play" aspect. You are only 1 or 2 lights or Drop Targets away from completing the sequence to light specials and your game ends. It makes you want to start anew and try again. Next time, you might light the special on 2nd ball but still fail to score even one Replay. They were very well balanced in that way. Then you have that game where all the stars seem to align and you get the special lit on 3rd ball, rack up a few, and still have 2 more balls to shoot for more. Three of the best examples of this for me are El Dorado, 4 Square, and 2001. You can have games where you get no where, and you can have games where you max out the replay reel.

    And for us, every "knock" has its meaning. While some might like it, the multiple knocks (5 etc.) per Extra Ball earned on some AABs is over kill if not down-right annoying.

    Quoted from DirtFlipper:

    (with the exception of the few games from '75-'76 that used the 'half-moon' credit unit, which only goes to 9).

    Actually, Dirt, it can go to 19. At 10, it still displays a 0 but the light that illuminates the Half Moon remains lit (as it does for 11-19). It just by then, most games were probably limted at 5 or 9 replays.

    #98 5 years ago
    Quoted from CactusJack:

    Actually, Dirt, it can go to 19. At 10, it still displays a 0 but the light that illuminates the Half Moon remains lit (as it does for 11-19). It just by then, most games were probably limted at 5 or 9 replays.

    Ah yes, forgot about the dang light! It displays 0-9 on the unit itself.

    #99 5 years ago

    In defense again of replay games, the main reason for us to like them for years and even decades is just one simple thing - the sound of the knocker - period. Credits may be "meaningless" but hearing the knocker isn't.

    I had a Gold Strike about 5 years ago that looked as if it just rolled out of the factory. It played like that too. Strong flippers, pops, etc.. You could turn it over two times, three times, four times, etc.. Long game times - 20 minutes, etc.. To me it was boring - to other folks that like aab they just had a great game when it was a long game - not me. I grew up with short game times so that game wasn't for me. I sold it and got an El Dorado and it's one of my favorites.

    #100 5 years ago

    And if anything, AAB games tend to be more rare (smaller market required them), and are often more expensive because of rarity.

    I happen to have both styles in my collection as well, and as noted, "Perspective is everything." I even agree with the simple logic that the idea of winning a replay has no value in the home setting, but despite an identical playfield, each plays quite a bit differently and both should be sampled. This was the point I was trying to make. When I see someone state, "The replay is worthless in the home environment," it sounds to me as though they're not going to give replay games a chance.
    To set the record straight, in checking with Boston Pinball, (for some reason, the modern day gospel), the value of replay games is in fact, still higher than most AAB counterparts despite the rarity. I always wondered why, since it would seem to fit the home environment better, and newbs, (having no nostalgic attachment), likely never played either.

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    $ 29.50
    Playfield - Plastics
    Pinball Haus
    From: $ 233.10
    $ 125.00
    Cabinet - Toppers
    Sparky Pinball
    $ 74.00
    Cabinet - Armor And Blades
    Id Rather Play Pinball
    From: $ 175.00
    Gameroom - Decorations
    Pinball Photos
    $ 27.95
    £ 58.00
    $ 34.95
    Playfield - Other
    Hookedonpinball.com
    $ 11.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 79.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    $ 239.00
    Cabinet - Toppers
    Tilttopper
    $ 79.99
    Cabinet - Armor And Blades
    PinGraffix Pinside Shop
    $ 89.00
    Boards
    Pappy's Pinball Palace
    $ 154.00
    Cabinet - Toppers
    Id Rather Play Pinball
    $ 84.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    $ 229.99
    Lighting - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    From: $ 19.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    PinBoss Mods
    $ 89.99
    From: $ 11.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 7,299.00
    Pinball Machine
    Flip N Out Pinball
    From: $ 9.99
    From: $ 49.99
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Medisinyl Mods
    $ 98.00
    Playfield - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 48.00
    Cabinet - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    There are 193 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 4.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside