Riverton, WY
I owned a star explorer. It sucked balls. I don't like "home" pins...
(Topic ID: 134226)
Quoted from Stones:Respectfully, I don't see a market for this? The people who wants machines in the home....have an idea of what they are looking for (either NIB or the nastagalia of owning a pin when they were a kid). Anything beyond on that....is going to be a tough sale. A person who isn't so familiar with pinball, isn't going to drop 2.5k for a machine in the home.
I agree with most of what you said. I'm thinking more of pinball people that enjoy SS games (including myself). I would purchase a NIB 2015 model Mata Hari, with extra current tech features today - no problem. I realize they may not be able to license "Mata Hari" (or maybe they could, or PPS could make it) - but even if the artwork were re-themed, and some slight changes to the layout - if it had just as good art - or better, and played as good - or better -> I would buy it. Add on to that the possibility of $1500 kits to get other NIB 2015 games (like FirePower, Playboy, Eight Ball Deluxe), and I would buy a lot of them.
Quoted from T7:Exactly! These would not be cut down versions of some other Pinball you could buy. They would be one of a kind 80's style games that would be NIB and be BETTER than their 80's counterparts. This would be like buying an improved NIB FirePower today. The rules would be much simpler than today's games and they would still be a blast to play - in perfect NIB condition.
I would buy a NIB remade High Speed for $1800, but that isn't an option in the poll.
If it wasn't a game that I already knew I liked though, there is no way I would be interested in buying a new, intentionally dumbed down game.
Quoted from nephasth:I owned a star explorer. It sucked balls. I don't like "home" pins...
Never heard of a "star explorer" - I don't think you comprehend what I'm suggesting - I do not mean "Home" pin -> I mean 80's style pinball. I used the term "Home" to indicate the sales would be primarily to home users. I've been trying to describe that these would be just as commercial as any 1980's Solid State game. So please compare to 1980's Bally/Williams games like Eight Ball, Eight Ball Deluxe, Mata Hari and Playboy. Have you ever heard of any of those? 
Quoted from Nexyss:If it wasn't a game that I already knew I liked though, there is no way I would be interested in buying a new, intentionally dumbed down game.
I figured a lot of people might not like 1980's style SS games. So you wouldn't even give a new game like this a chance. Would you spend money on it in the arcade? Or would you only play the full Stern Pro games?
I'm interested to see if the consensus is 1980's style games are ONLY worthwhile/good/fun for the nostalgia factor. It seems like many might have that opinion.
Quoted from T7:I figured a lot of people might not like 1980's style SS games. So you wouldn't even give a new game like this a chance. Would you spend money on it in the arcade? Or would you only play the full Stern Pro games?
I'm interested to see if the consensus is 1980's style games are ONLY worthwhile/good/fun for the nostalgia factor. It seems like many might have that opinion.
Notsalgia's a huge part of it...but even people new to those games know that they're "the real deal"...they were out there being enjoyed by casuals and champions alike - those games have had time to gain their reputation. There's something appealing about having a classic pinball machine, even if you didn't grow up with it. A "new old style" game would be coming out of nowhere with no guarantee of being as good as the classics, and without a license to egg on those early adopters, it would fail right out of the gate. I mean - I own a Caribbean Cruise...a simple cocktail pinball! It's super cheezy but the cheeze is appealing since it's actually from the late 80s/early 90s. I paid about $150 for it. If someone made a brand new cocktail game with similar gameplay I wouldn't even remotely care. Old and weird and cheap was the appeal.
I've brought up Retro's KOD a few times...what about New Canasta? That was a new/simple game - no one seems to remotely give a crap about that game.
Are you advocating that this is something Stern should do or someone new? Stern could probably take the risk & try it...although they sort of did that with Whoa Nellie and it was priced like a modern game. If anyone else tried to start up a company and do this they'd be workin on the project for years before it was ready for market and there's no guarantee they'd be able to sell 100 units. They'd either have to go the pre-order route to gauge materials needed (and pre-order is dead) or commit to manufacture a minimum amount of units they might sit on forever. There's no business plan in making this type of game. If you disagree, feel free to pursue this as a business venture - I wish you luck.
Quoted from T7:I figured a lot of people might not like 1980's style SS games. So you wouldn't even give a new game like this a chance. Would you spend money on it in the arcade? Or would you only play the full Stern Pro games?
I'm interested to see if the consensus is 1980's style games are ONLY worthwhile/good/fun for the nostalgia factor. It seems like many might have that opinion.
I prefer Stern Premium, but unfortunately, they are hard to find on location. If one of these games you are proposing was cheaper to play than the (more) fully featured game next to it, I might play a couple of games on it to see what it is like. In general though, the 80s games had their time, but that is long past. These newer games just blow them away. The closest thing I have seen to what I think you are suggesting is whoa nellie, and I definitely would not pay $2000 for that.
Have you heard of brunswick Aspen or Alive? These were made for the home market but with real Stern gen 1 components. The playfield was slightly smaller, the cabinet slightly loess tall. If you're trying to get in at that $2k, there's no way you're building a brand new EBD.
You need to cut weight down to save on shipping and materials cost. You need to make some sacrifices. It's not going to be EBD.
I think it's crazy to ask, "would you buy a NIB EBD for $2k?"
This thread is off the rails.
Quoted from T7:Never heard of a "star explorer" - I don't think you comprehend what I'm suggesting - I do not mean "Home" pin -> I mean 80's style pinball. I used the term "Home" to indicate the sales would be primarily to home users. I've been trying to describe that these would be just as commercial as any 1980's Solid State game. So please compare to 1980's Bally/Williams games like Eight Ball, Eight Ball Deluxe, Mata Hari and Playboy. Have you ever heard of any of those?
Quoted from T7:Currently a complete cabinet with hardware and stickers can be bought retail @ $1500 including profit - this would be a key component to a less expensive pin - how inexpensive can a commercial grade cabinet be made? Do you think a large company, making 1000s of cabinets with possible design alterations (still commercial grade) could possibly get that cost (internally) down to $500.
We can make commercial cabinets with decals in quantity of 50 or more for around $600. With glass, rails, lockbar, plastics, legs and hinges we can do them for around $850.
Quoted from Rarehero:Are you advocating that this is something Stern should do or someone new? Stern could probably take the risk & try it...
I think it would be awesome if someone made new 1980's style games in 2015. It would have to be at a much lower price point than Stern Pros for it to work though. I tried to make this point in Aurich's thread, but that thread got shifted into discussing simpler pins on location, so operators could earn more from non-pinheads. This thread is the same idea, but focused on "would you buy this for your home at $$$$ what price".
This is actually what Aurich's poll asked: "Would You Buy A Modern Take On An Early 1980 Solid State For $4k?"
I just wanted to change the price point, because I feel $4k is way too close to the price of a Stern Pro - and therefore they would be a big flop at that price point.
The MOST interesting thing is: Aurich's thread had a LOT of people interested at $4k! While the response in this thread was less favorable at lower price points, even though I've been pushing that the quality of the games would be great - if people could just "imagine" it could be done. I don't know if Heighway pinball is considering this, but judging by the responses IMO it would be a huge flop at $4k.
What does anyone else think at the $4k price point for a "Modern Take on a 1980's SS"?
Also - Are people just being more positive because Aurich is asking in the other thread?
Quoted from T7:Never heard of a "star explorer" - I don't think you comprehend what I'm suggesting - I do not mean "Home" pin -> I mean 80's style pinball. I used the term "Home" to indicate the sales would be primarily to home users. I've been trying to describe that these would be just as commercial as any 1980's Solid State game. So please compare to 1980's Bally/Williams games like Eight Ball, Eight Ball Deluxe, Mata Hari and Playboy. Have you ever heard of any of those?
Apparently you missed my post in Aurich's thread that I'd rather buy a CNC machine and make my own system 11 style pin than buy a new simple one from a manufacturer...
Quoted from Mocean:I think it's crazy to ask, "would you buy a NIB EBD for $2k?"
This thread is off the rails.
The poll is meant to determine what would be the "highest price you would pay for a 1980's style pin made today". That could easily be an EBD Layout/Art/Rules and game play (or Firepower or Mata Hari). Please vote for the price point you would be willing to pay for this *in general*. Not every title released is going to be an EBD, others include what I've mentioned before: Playboy, EB, Mata Hari, Firepower, etc. I'm sorry that many of you can't imagine what I'm trying to convey, that's why I've been trying to clarify.
BTW - EBD is NOT that advanced - a similar (almost exactly the same) game could be made at a much lower cost than a Stern Pro. Maybe not 2K -> but maybe 2.5K, 3K or 3.5K. Again - what price would you pay?
Quoted from nephasth:Aparently you missed my post in Aurich's thread that I'd rather buy a CNC machine and make my own system 11 style pin than buy a new simple one from a manufacturer...
Yes - sorry - I dropped out of Aurich thread mostly because it was focusing on earning potential and attracting new players to pinball on location. I wanted to focus on what price point would people really pay for modern takes on 1980's style SS pins.
Quoted from shakenbake:We can make commercial cabinets with decals in quantity of 50 or more for around $600. With glass, rails, lockbar, plastics, legs and hinges we can do them for around $850.
Awesome - thanks - that's great info for a thread like this.
So adding $1000 for additional parts and $1000 for price over BOM - a 2.85k price point would seem possible for a 1980's level game. Again, it doesn't matter which price point is possible when voting -> which price would you be willing to purchase at?
Quoted from T7:So adding $1000 for additional parts and $1000 for price over BOM - a 2.85k price point would seem possible for a 1980's level game.
How much profit are you projecting here? Seems like you'd need a comfortable margin to cover all the contingencies of manufacturing and then warranty service on the back end. Also, if they're going to be sold through distributors, there needs to be room between wholesale and retail to allow the distributors to make a profit as well.
Quoted from fosaisu:How much profit are you projecting here? Seems like you'd need a comfortable margin to cover all the contingencies of manufacturing and then warranty service on the back end. Also, if they're going to be sold through distributors, there needs to be room between wholesale and retail to allow the distributors to make a profit as well.
If you consider Sterns Pro pricing model as a successful up and running starting point - then 4.5K is your current baseline. Obviously these games would have a lower price then that - correct? So, I'm just laying out possible incremental pricing tiers: 4K, 3.5K, 3K, 2.5K. I've seen posts of "1 million dollars" to design and program (not build) a new modern pinball. The programming, audio, video, design, testing, production would all be much less for "Firepower" than for "Kiss Pro". I'm not trying to pin-point a possible sale price for profitability, I'm trying to see at what price would people actually buy it.
Only profitable way would be:
1. Made in China
2. More DIY to put the machine together
3. Direct to consumer and no middleman - no distributors.
To All - I may have "sabotaged" my own thread by saying "For Home Users Only" 
That did not mean a "toy" version of a pinball. I should have just said - "What Price Would You Buy At" - but I was trying to differentiate the title from Aurichs thread. I just wanted to get peoples opinions of what they would pay for a "Modern Take on a 1980s style game". I wanted to avoid the thread focusing on operators, and earnings potentials, and getting new people into pinball at arcades.
Melbourne
Unknown
I don't know if it's possible (BOM and labour costs), but having a pinball designed with standard parts (ok, there's the need of getting nice flow, but no special custom toys, no drops (said to be expensive)) and only a software-basic-framework (like with P-ROC), a simple boardset (like Ben Heck) and make it a community-programming-thing (open source, no license) might lower quite some costs. Maybe even the artwork: make a layout, and after that make a competition who makes the nicest artwork and let people vote for the best artwork, which will be chosen. That said, I don't know/think that's enough to really make a 'cheap' pinball game, though I can imagine it saves a lot of the total costs.
'Working for free won't be done?' (some might say). Well, look at all hobby-projects, ideas, lots of hours... maybe it can be done.
You'd still need a factory though and people willing to buy a game of which the software has still to be developed. That, or make a VPinmame version first, so people know what they'll buy. Still, I don't think a startup can make those games cheap enough. I'm not sure though if that's not what Ben Heck and Charly/Spooky Pinball have done: work (almost) for free on design and software? If that's so, I don't think it's really possible. Maybe Stern could do it with all machines etc. already in place, but why would they want to do that?
Producing the parts and let owners assemble the pinball themselves could be an option. There'd have to be an own risk, no guarantee except on parts (and with help from the community) buying-agreement.
Someone mentioned High Speed NIB. Make a layout like i.e. High Speed or Road Kings (nice layout and more shots than High Speed, already P-ROCced, and quite a complete DMD game made of it if I may say so) and make some more rules for it than the existing ones (open source) and it'll be a fun game.
If pinball resurges enough again, you can bet a manufacturer in China will find a way to produce it cheap, and with enough crap that ropes people in, that seems lame to us, and easily outsells anything else in pinball.
Quoted from T7:That's pretty much the first option in the poll: "I would not buy at $2000 or more"
If you are implying that you would want: "I would not buy this at any price, no matter how low" -> please choose option 1 as it still applies to you.
At this time there are 11 votes that would NOT buy, and 26 votes that would at various other prices. So I think you're off when you say where "everyone" stands. Just because a few people are more vocal, doesn't make their votes count more than 1.
Oh when i said "everyone" i meant just to represent every opinion, that's all. Only having the "I would not buy at $2000 or more" option implies that maybe some people voting for that option would buy at $1500 or whatever lower price point, which is not completely accurate. I think the "I would not buy this at any price, no matter how low" option should be there to separate out those people that just aren't interested in a simpler pin and hence have a more accurate poll. That's why I didn't vote because I don't feel like any option in the voting list really supports my personal choice.
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