(Topic ID: 134226)

A Simpler Pin - for Home Users Only

By T7

8 years ago


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    Topic poll

    “What's the highest price you would be likely to purchase a "simpler" new pin...”

    • I would not buy at $2000 or more 25 votes
      34%
    • $2000 7 votes
      10%
    • $2500 15 votes
      21%
    • $3000 9 votes
      12%
    • $3500 3 votes
      4%
    • $4000 7 votes
      10%
    • $2500 plus $1500 for additional playfield swap games 6 votes
      8%
    • $3500 plus $1500 for additional playfield swap games 1 vote
      1%

    (73 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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    #1 8 years ago

    Aurich started an interesting thread, but the discussion focused more on "on location" pins.

    This thread is for discussion of a "Simpler Pin" for home use, at a lower cost -> Say 2K - 2.5K street price.

    We could discuss if it would be possible to make at this price, and would it sell at this price point.

    EDIT >>> IMPORTANT - This would NOT be like "The Pin". This would be FULL SIZE, COMMERCIAL GRADE, BETTER THAN 1980's SS GAMES. Think full size, updated Bally Playboy with LEDs, color LCD, enhanced rules, plus multi-ball, available as a NIB game.

    - Games similar in style to Mata Hari, Fire Power, Flash, Playboy
    - still include ramps and multiballs
    - simple display (still on an LCD) - no need for custom animation
    - simple audio - not a big extra expense per game
    - re-usable cabinet - drop in a new playfield, and update the code -> new game for 1.5K
    - rules could be slightly enhanced -> Mata Hari on steroids -> muti-ball with loop jackpots

    Keys to keeping the cost down...
    - Cabinet cost needs to be controlled - $500 internal cost would be good if possible - is it possible?
    - Cheaper playfield costs -> idea -> plastic playfield using an overlay that masks insert lights
    --- still clearcoat over the overlay -> would this play any different than a wood clearcoated playfield?
    --- simpler switches - no slots cut into playfield
    - Cheap toys -> magnets, spinners, bash toys, saucers, scoops, ramps, lighting effects
    - drop targets?

    #2 8 years ago

    Hmmm. I'm not sure there is enough demand for a simple game like that...there aren't too many people who own "The Pin"...(I haven't met any). But there is no need to reinvent the wheel, the market has shown over and over again that it's comfortable with sub $5K game price. Also pinball makers have demonstrated they can make a good sub $5K game. The days of $8-10k pinballs are coming to an end soon, if these guys are smart they will be looking at how to make 5K games instead of $10k boondoggles.

    #3 8 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    Hmmm. I'm not sure there is enough demand for a simple game like that...there aren't too many people who own "The Pin"...(I haven't met any).

    For clarification, this would still have a nice full size cabinet - not like "The Pin". The end result would need to be *better* than the 80's equivalent. So think of a Bally Playboy - but made today, with better tech and enhancements like LED's, slightly more advanced rules and multiball (possibly). But missing these current DMD game features: custom audio, custom animations/videos, extensive programming/rulesets.

    Additionally - these games would not have a "better" counterpart. "The Pin" was kind of doomed for most pinheads because none of us want to buy a "toy" Iron Man - we want the real deal. This would be the real deal itself - just a "simple" real deal.

    #4 8 years ago

    When I walk into my gameroom I want real commercial grade pinball machines. They provide the feel and style of play I want and love. A "home" game just isn't the same. The "simpler pins" in my home are older Bally SS games. They are light (comparatively), easy to move, and extremely fun. But they are built to play and they have a history. As an example, my Mata Hari had a tax sticker inside from 1987. So 10 years after it was built it was still on route earning money. I have no idea how the game moved the 1500 miles since then to end up in my basement. I don't know who owned it, or what they did with it up until the last owner and me. But I know it was on route taking quarters in for a lot of its life. When it leaves my house, it will be in a lot better shape than when it came in. I am a steward of the game while it is in my house.

    You want a simpler game in your house? Buy an early SS game. Get it running well, set it up nasty, and play the crap out of it. You will be well below the street price you wanted, and you will discover how great those games were. No rules, just right.

    #5 8 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    When I walk into my gameroom I want real commercial grade pinball machines. They provide the feel and style of play I want and love. A "home" game just isn't the same. The "simpler pins" in my home are older Bally SS games.

    You are missing my point - this WOULD BE REAL COMMERCIAL GRADE. The "simple" part is to cut costs to get to a 2K price point. This means less programming, audio, and video -> but a game that is BETTER than the older Bally SS games you have.

    You are actually saying that YOU would want the type of game I'm suggesting. BTW mint examples of popular Bally SS games are not cheaper than 2K anymore. These would be brand new games, with enhanced features via new tech but similar playfield toys and rules to the Bally SS games you like. The only reason I can see that someone would not prefer this is the nostalgia factor you brought up.

    Is "nostalgia" the ONLY reason people find these games fun and worth spending 2K on?

    10
    #6 8 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    You are missing my point - this WOULD BE REAL COMMERCIAL GRADE. The "simple" part is to cut costs to get to a 2K price point.

    Impossible or it would have been done already. Wasn't that Scorgasm thing $2k or so? And that didn't even have flippers or anything.

    If Stern can't get The Pin down to $2k while already using mass produced parts and their existing factory, there's no way there's a business plan that would allow someone to get into the manufacturing business to successfully make a product like this.

    #7 8 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    You are missing my point - this WOULD BE REAL COMMERCIAL GRADE. The "simple" part is to cut costs to get to a 2K price point.

    Parts cost is not the most expensive part of a pinball. Labor and assembly is. Hell, you can't even buy a new cabinet and playfield (things produced at volume) and not come out to around $2000. So I think your premise that making a game simpler WRT to features/toys is going to make it substantially cheaper is wrong. There's a floor price somewhere out there that tech can't get around. That's the price of a cabinet, decaled with some art, along with printed, prepped playfield, and assembly of plastics/mechs, wire harnesses, etc etc etc.

    When you read about playfield swaps here on this forum they are time-consuming. Now I know that's not an assembly line scenario but there is not going to be a $2000 new pinball going forward. There's no profit even if they were magically assembled by elves who work for free.

    #8 8 years ago

    Whoa Nellie has nothing fancy on the playfield and it's a $6500 game. Taking a simple design that's basically a Stern Pro and removing the two plastic ramps and one or two toys they have isn't going to cut the price in half.

    I don't understand where your cost savings are coming in. You say you still want ramps, multiball, an LCD display, swappable playfields, better than 1980s rules, toys... You're already well above The Pin pricing which is your target. You're basically describing something like Iron Man.

    #9 8 years ago

    I like my pins with lots to do simple pins aren't even on my radar.maybe good for a play or 2 not to own especially with no nastalgia factor.

    #10 8 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Impossible or it would have been done already. Wasn't that Scorgasm thing $2k or so? And that didn't even have flippers or anything.

    For the sake of discussion - please just "imagine" it's possible.

    Just because small start-ups have had high costs for simple games doesn't make this an impossibility. Stern games were available for less than $3500 up until about 2009. The type of technology and simplicity I'm talking about here is totally possible in at least one of the price points in the poll. Also, please consider the possibility of $1500 swappable games, with an initial cost of $3500 for the cabinet and game 1.

    #11 8 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    I don't understand where your cost savings are coming in. You say you still want ramps, multiball, an LCD display, swappable playfields, better than 1980s rules, toys... You're already well above The Pin pricing which is your target. You're basically describing something like Iron Man.

    The cost savings could come in a lot of different forms.

    Iron Man has: pretty big ruleset, big custom toy (the monger), DMD, animations, full audio package, and does not have the other cost savings that could be done.

    An LCD display isn't a big cost -> it's the programming, animations, videos, etc. A simple LCD display scheme that is re-used from game to game (to display scores and some graphics) could have an almost zero development cost game to game -> it's only showing scores 95%. A color LCD is < $100.

    Multiball isn't that expensive -> adding 2 extra balls to the game and some logic -> 80's games had multiball.

    A big cost savings would be IF a playfield could be made cheaper -> out of clear plastic with an overlay for the art. This could greatly reduce the cost of the games if it could be done well. CNC all the wood cuts, gluing in the inserts, screen printing the playfield -> adds up the cost.

    IF a company made this at 1 of the price points in the poll (and it was commercial grade) - would you buy it?

    #12 8 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    IF a company made this at 1 of the price points in the poll (and it was commercial grade) - would you buy it?

    I would buy a remake of a top 70s or 80s game at <$3500, if you're telling me you're developing something new and more complex than that even it would sell like hotcakes. I don't think we're going to see even remakes at these prices though.

    Even if the pricepoint was possible, why would Stern cut into their $5500 Pro sales by releasing something of commercial quality for thousands of dollars less? If we're hoping a new manufacturer does this, I'm hesitant to put any hope in anything with new pinball being such a crapshoot. Making an ultra-low cost pinball sounds riskier than anything.

    #13 8 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    The cost savings could come in a lot of different forms.
    Iron Man has: pretty big ruleset, big custom toy (the monger), DMD, animations, full audio package, and does not have the other cost savings that could be done.
    An LCD display isn't a big cost -> it's the programming, animations, videos, etc. A simple LCD display scheme that is re-used from game to game (to display scores and some graphics) could have an almost zero development cost game to game -> it's only showing scores 95%. A color LCD is < $100.
    Multiball isn't that expensive -> adding 2 extra balls to the game and some logic -> 80's games had multiball.
    A big cost savings would be IF a playfield could be made cheaper -> out of clear plastic with an overlay for the art. This could greatly reduce the cost of the games if it could be done well. CNC all the wood cuts, gluing in the inserts, screen printing the playfield -> adds up the cost.
    IF a company made this at 1 of the price points in the poll (and it was commercial grade) - would you buy it?

    Unfortunately you're doing what most people do when complaining about NIB pin prices or the price difference between Pros & Premiums and LE's - you're just looking at BOM. Pinball cost is not determined purely by BOM. There's a factory & all the employees in it. Customer support staff, warranty, engineers, designers, artists, musicians, labor, marketing, management, R&D, etc etc etc ...if pinball could be cheaper, it WOULD - but it just can't! What Stern used to sell games for is irrelevant. They sold more games back then & materials cost less. Pinball sells for the prices it sells for now because THATS what they have to do to stay in business. I mean, you could probably argue that Charlie/Spooky runs the most frugal pinball company, and even their games have to be $6k.

    #14 8 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    Taking a simple design that's basically a Stern Pro and removing the two plastic ramps and one or two toys they have isn't going to cut the price in half.
    I don't understand where your cost savings are coming in. You say you still want ramps, multiball, an LCD display, swappable playfields, better than 1980s rules, toys... You're already well above The Pin pricing which is your target. You're basically describing something like Iron Man.

    you are right, i think there is a very high floor (assembly, marketing, shipping, design, QA, overhead, and more) and removing a ramp or two isn't going to save much overall cost.

    however, i think here are some legit cost-saving vectors, though:
    - no DMD, no digital animations
    - no licensing (but kickass original artwork, unfettered by corporate IP lawyer back-and-forth and dumbing down)
    - shorter development cycle
    - simpler construction (not cheaper or smaller parts, just fewer mechs and plastics and less wiring)
    - fewer custom components

    can it be done? no idea. i'd be psyched if someone pulled it off, though.

    #15 8 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    For the sake of discussion - please just "imagine" it's possible.
    Just because small start-ups have had high costs for simple games doesn't make this an impossibility. Stern games were available for less than $3500 up until about 2009. The type of technology and simplicity I'm talking about here is totally possible in at least one of the price points in the poll. Also, please consider the possibility of $1500 swappable games, with an initial cost of $3500 for the cabinet and game 1.

    The people doing exactly that (swap the playfield type of games) are charging over $7000 for the cab and game 1. However, suspending all of that disbelief and going with the premise... crap, sorry, here it comes... I have no imagination...

    Grab a pen and a notepad and start writing down the costs of things. Start right from a set of legs, and the plywood to bolt them to. Include the bolts, the plates, the levelers, and start adding it up for 100 games where you do all of the labor yourself (you are giving your time away free to the community, right?). Then just start building it on paper. Make sure you know how you are going to paint and clear coat the playfield (and understand the massive cost if you make a tiny mistake in that process), so obviously you need to farm that out. Then the design time (which is free?) because if the shots are not fun, who wants to play it. The sound work (or are we going old school bells). The licensing of, or creation from scratch of all the art and assets.

    Or course you get to add in the savings of scale because you are ordering 400 leg levelers... oh, but 30 of them had bad threads, so 450 leg levelers is enough to not stop production?

    I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but actually doing it is hard. Just shipping a box of 450 levelers is expensive. Building wiring harnesses is time consuming. Having a building that isn't your garage is expensive. Paying someone to sign for the shipments coming in is expensive.

    And I agree, Stern games used to be a lot less expensive, and some of them were freaking awesome. And I will go a step farther, I think with economies do scale, the might be able to do a bare bones game at a similar cost to then... but they would lose money on it. The margin would be nothing, so any hitch in any single game would be a loss of money. A bad board and they take a loss. A worker hits his hand with a hammer and production may stop. That, and if they made it too good, it would impact their full machine sales. Because if I can buy a brand new fun game, why on earth would I even buy the Pro model?

    I'd love to be proved wrong, and I think if someone figures it out they would sell like hotcakes. Fun games, brand new 3k, full commercial feeling? Sign me up, I'd buy it. I just don't see a way to make that profitable, and really, profit is what pays the mortgage.

    #16 8 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    There's a factory & all the employees in it. Customer support staff, warranty, engineers, designers, artists, musicians, labor, marketing, management, R&D, etc etc etc ...if pinball could be cheaper, it WOULD - but it just can't!

    I'm not complaining about current NIB prices. This is just for discussion. Nobody is currently trying to make a game at the level I'm discussing. All the companies have been making full featured, current level pinballs. The # of engineers, designers, artists, musicians, etc. would be much less on a game like this. A company could make a "Firepower Plus" for $3500 - no problem - maybe not a startup (especially for their first game), but a big company could no problem. Currently a complete cabinet with hardware and stickers can be bought retail @ $1500 including profit - this would be a key component to a less expensive pin - how inexpensive can a commercial grade cabinet be made? Do you think a large company, making 1000s of cabinets with possible design alterations (still commercial grade) could possibly get that cost (internally) down to $500.

    This is only for discussion - more from the standpoint of if it happened, would you buy it?
    It probably won't happen - but you never know.

    Think of it this way - Mattel could make a "toy" almost full size, plastic pinball with all the logic of what I've described (Firepower Plus) for $1200. If you can rationalize that possibility -> upgrade to a real cabinet and real playfield components for an additional $1300. Same computer, display, audio, programming - but a commercial grade cabinet and components.

    #17 8 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    Even if the pricepoint was possible, why would Stern cut into their $5500 Pro sales by releasing something of commercial quality for thousands of dollars less?

    Well assuming they would sell way more of these than the $5500, that is why they would sell these types of games. No way of knowing if these types of games at these types of prices would sell like crazy until they get made though. Like I said in the other thread, if Stern plans on making 6 different games a year, this would lend for trying these types of ventures while using the other successful segments of their business to help with any loss or downfall that would come with trying a model like this.

    #18 8 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    I'd love to be proved wrong, and I think if someone figures it out they would sell like hotcakes. Fun games, brand new 3k, full commercial feeling? Sign me up, I'd buy it. I just don't see a way to make that profitable, and really, profit is what pays the mortgage.

    It would be profitable if they sold 30k of them a year. Not sure that is ever possible for one title, let a alone various different ones, but that is essentially what needs to happen for a more reasonably priced game to succeed.

    But, if pinball keeps getting more popular, this might not be so impossible 5-10 years from now. who knows.

    #19 8 years ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    It would be profitable if they sold 30k of them a year. Not sure that is ever possible for one title, let a alone various different ones, but that is essentially what needs to happen for a more reasonably priced game to succeed.
    But, if pinball keeps getting more popular, this might not be so impossible 5-10 years from now. who knows.

    interesting. can you post the cost-benefit and market research you did to come up with such a specific volume of games?

    #20 8 years ago

    Just re-release Star Explorer!

    #21 8 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    interesting. can you post the cost-benefit and market research you did to come up with such a specific volume of games?

    just saying, without seeing the numbers for all their COS and overhead, I would say that if they sold 30k $3,000-$3,500 priced games, they would be in the black. Do you think it would take more sales than that?

    #22 8 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    I'm not complaining about current NIB prices. This is just for discussion. Nobody is currently trying to make a game at the level I'm discussing.

    If they could, they would. Well - Stern did: The Pin is pretty much what you're talking about. Home use, commercial grade. It's either that, or you go to friggin' cardboard and end up with Zizzle for $300.

    Quoted from T7:

    All the companies have been making full featured, current level pinballs. The # of engineers, designers, artists, musicians, etc. would be much less on a game like this.

    Disagree. A modern game usually has has 1 designer, 1 musician, 1 artist....even a simple game is going to need 1 designer, 1 musician, 1 artist. They're not likely going to say "Oh cool, pay me less because the game is simpler." Salary is salary. Of course if you want it cheaper, you could hire freelancers who might take less - but, you get what you pay for.

    Quoted from T7:

    This is only for discussion - more from the standpoint of if it happened, would you buy it?
    It probably won't happen - but you never know.

    No. If i wanted a simpler 80's style game, I'd go buy an existing one for less than $1000.

    Quoted from pezpunk:

    - no licensing (but kickass original artwork, unfettered by corporate IP lawyer back-and-forth and dumbing down)

    A non-licensed cheapie/simple game would guarantee failure. King of Diamonds, anyone? Think Zizzles would have sold if they weren't POTC and Avengers?

    #23 8 years ago

    I'd be in. If it were an open source game, ships flat pack, community supported, ie. programming.

    Parts ship flat pack - cab - this is fairly cheap.
    Driver - beaglebone or similar microprocessor that is open and easily flashed
    programming - Community programmed. You could have infinite versions of code. Like linux apps, you can have a base code repository, then fork for new versions. groups or people can fork their own versions.

    I'm totally in on that. I'd love a game that was $2k ish. It would get those diy'ers in the hobby and satisfy current pin heads. Also allowing custom things to be done more easily.

    #24 8 years ago
    Quoted from northvibe:

    I'd be in. If it were an open source game, ships flat pack, community supported, ie. programming.

    Flat pack pinball in a kit is an awesome idea, there's just no way to support it. Think of all the support Stern and JJP need to hand out for their professionally assembled games. You start letting normal people screw up the assembly on these games and it becomes a nightmare getting them all running. How big is the market for a $2-3k "you're on your own with community support" kit? If something like that ever happens, I'd be in 100%.

    Keep in mind Lost Vegas was going to be $1500 just for playfield, backglass, MPU/sound board, plastics, and some other minor items to modify an existing game. The price will definitely creep up when you add a full cabinet and all the components needed to make a game whole in there.

    #25 8 years ago

    The more I read this and the more people bring up Zizzle and The Pin, like someone else quickly mentioned in the other thread, I can't help but equating this idea to the failed Vacation America.

    http://www.pinballnews.com/news/vacation.html
    http://www.pinballnews.com/news/churchill.html

    Low Price machine with full cabinet, original theme, and cost cutting measures through the wazoo to make this thing cheap. Granted the OP has a few differences in his visualization (coin door, possibly a ramp, 4-player), Vacation America was trying/failing with a ton of ideas that fall into this category.

    1) Original Theme = No Licensing fees
    2) Full Cabinet = Looks like a Pinball machine (though played like a toy... vs. The Pin which played like a pinball, but looked like a toy)
    3) Easy maintenance for newbies. Replace many switches with SS electronics. Giant PC boards under PF instead of billions of wires. No switches, instead replace with Opto/IR sensors.
    4) Have the rules be easy enough for a newbie, but progress long enough to keep intermediate players "entertained" (in theory)
    5) Using inflation, I believe this game was listing around $3000 in today's dollars (which is right where people say a "simpler" pinball needs to be priced below a Stern Pro)

    Though it was an utter failure, isn't this more or less right in line with those in this thread?

    My point is that if Vacation America could've been done less horribly, with maybe a small ramp or toy, better play, 4-player, and better theme/art, isn't a $3000 NIB machine very plausible?

    #26 8 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    Flat pack pinball in a kit is an awesome idea, there's just no way to support it. Think of all the support Stern and JJP need to hand out for their professionally assembled games. You start letting normal people screw up the assembly on these games and it becomes a nightmare getting them all running. How big is the market for a $2-3k "you're on your own with community support" kit? If something like that ever happens, I'd be in 100%.
    Keep in mind Lost Vegas was going to be $1500 just for playfield, backglass, MPU/sound board, plastics, and some other minor items to modify an existing game. The price will definitely creep up when you add a full cabinet and all the components needed to make a game whole in there.

    The support is very lacking. You have community support to get it going, there are no refunds, but any damaged items get replaced during shipping. After that you are on your own. The cpu driver board will have it's own warranty if it is from rasp pi or beaglebone etc. That is the point though. We are cutting corners to save money, and support is a big one. That is done by being bare bones with it. It is a diy, not for the faint of heart. There are plenty of car kits etc and they seem to do just fine...we just need to figure out how to adapt that.

    #27 8 years ago
    Quoted from northvibe:

    The support is very lacking. You have community support to get it going, there are no refunds, but any damaged items get replaced during shipping. After that you are on your own. The cpu driver board will have it's own warranty if it is from rasp pi or beaglebone etc. That is the point though. We are cutting corners to save money, and support is a big one. That is done by being bare bones with it. It is a diy, not for the faint of heart. There are plenty of car kits etc and they seem to do just fine...we just need to figure out how to adapt that.

    I think it would be really cool to have this option for the home collector not afraid to put their own game together. I would love it for sure.

    #28 8 years ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    I think it would be really cool to have this option for the home collector not afraid to put their own game together. I would love it for sure.

    Ya! DIY is making a come back! I also think the talent we have in the hobby can take this and run with it. There would be no limits what someone or a group could come up with for "code". Hopefully it could be open sourced and people would just be donating time to improving it. With the lack of license and paying programmers you have a self sustained and driven machine with endless code variants. I like the idea of doing my own code, but then swapping to someone else's. Same layout could play completely different.

    #29 8 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    A non-licensed cheapie/simple game would guarantee failure. King of Diamonds, anyone? Think Zizzles would have sold if they weren't POTC and Avengers?

    Licensing is cheap in the scheme of even a $2,000 machine (Roger Sharpe has said that all licenses he's seen were "far less" than $100 per machine), and you get ready-made artwork and sound to offset some of that cost. And a decent license will boost sales, as there will always be at least a few buyers who are swayed by their love of the theme. The rationale for doing an original, unlicensed theme has to be largely artistic (no approvals necessary and you get the satisfaction of making a product that's 100% yours), not financial (you'll never sell as many games as you would have with a decent licensed theme).

    #30 8 years ago
    Quoted from fosaisu:

    Licensing is cheap in the scheme of even a $2,000 machine (Roger Sharpe has said that all licenses he's seen were "far less" than $100 per machine), and you get ready-made artwork and sound to offset some of that cost. And a decent license will boost sales, as there will always be at least a few buyers who are swayed by their love of the theme. The rationale for doing an original, unlicensed theme has to be largely artistic (no approvals necessary and you get the satisfaction of making a product that's 100% yours), not financial (you'll never sell as many games as you would have with a decent licensed theme).

    Sure, but Sharpe negotiated those not saying it couldn't be done, but you are also talking about a company like stern or JJP which would sell 5k+ machines and this run would probably be less....

    #31 8 years ago
    Quoted from fosaisu:

    Licensing is cheap in the scheme of even a $2,000 machine (Roger Sharpe has said that all licenses he's seen were "far less" than $100 per machine), and you get ready-made artwork and sound to offset some of that cost.

    i think anyone that's followed TBL or TH has seen that having "ready-made artwork" doesnt actually save any time or money.

    #32 8 years ago

    [edit haha i deleted this post because i thought it was pointless but it got two thumbs up so i'll edit it back in...]

    The Pin was a toy, and Vacation America was corny and ugly. Neither really represent this concept.

    #33 8 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    A big cost savings would be IF a playfield could be made cheaper -> out of clear plastic with an overlay for the art. This could greatly reduce the cost of the games if it could be done well. CNC all the wood cuts, gluing in the inserts, screen printing the playfield -> adds up the cost.

    In quantities of 1000+, conventional finished playfields are $200.

    Maybe direct digital printing could save a little money?

    #34 8 years ago

    I think the poll needs a "I would not buy a simpler pin" option to be more reflective of where everyone stands.

    #35 8 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    The Pin was a toy.

    The Pin is a super fun toy.

    #36 8 years ago

    Many have hit the point in this thread again and again.

    The misguided thought here is that
    no ramps == simple

    My Zizzle has two ramps. It has some pretty good programming and rules, too. If it were full size, it would probably be reasonably enjoyable.

    If it were full size it would need higher voltage, stronger coils, and better wiring. Since the under the playfield coil assemblies are mostly cheap plastic, stronger coils mean they'd need to be made of metal.

    With stronger coils the above playfield components need to be stronger to withstand ball hits. It adds up quickly.

    Anyway, if I'm giving up precious space for a pin, it better be a real one. There are plenty of great system 11, DE, SEGA and WPC games that can be had all day long for under $2k.

    It's a great idea but it's not grounded in reality.

    #37 8 years ago

    There seems to be no shortage here of people with deep pockets. That's cool...more power to you!
    It's a great idea, making a modern affordable game. But even if they sold them for $1500.00, well that's still too much for a toy for a working class schmuck like myself.

    Besides, I don't care what anybody says, they would never be quite as good as a modern commercial machine.

    I could use the same amount and buy a few nice EM's, which I think I'd rather have anyway.

    #38 8 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    i think anyone that's followed TBL or TH has seen that having "ready-made artwork" doesnt actually save any time or money.

    I wonder if the delays on TBL and TH aren't a result of inexperience working with license holders and/or an attempt to push the license "to the limit" in order to make the end-product look as close to the designer's original concept as possible. If the latter, that's an admirable goal and no doubt will result in a superior final product, but not necessarily a good way to maximize profitability. Stern manages to chug along, pumping out licensed playfields/cabinets without massive delays (though the results admittedly often feel uninspired). Stern is not airing its dirty laundry on Pinside, so maybe its back-and-forth with license holders is just as tortured and time consuming as what we've seen with DP and JJP. But somehow I doubt it.

    #39 8 years ago
    Quoted from Reality_Studio:

    I think the poll needs a "I would not buy a simpler pin" option to be more reflective of where everyone stands.

    That's pretty much the first option in the poll: "I would not buy at $2000 or more"

    If you are implying that you would want: "I would not buy this at any price, no matter how low" -> please choose option 1 as it still applies to you.

    At this time there are 11 votes that would NOT buy, and 26 votes that would at various other prices. So I think you're off when you say where "everyone" stands. Just because a few people are more vocal, doesn't make their votes count more than 1.

    #40 8 years ago

    I think there would be a problem with perception.
    Too many potential customers would view it as "not a real pinball machine" no matter how real it is.
    Look at the Gottlieb/Premier "street level" games. Those were real arcade pinballs that just had fewer features to save cost. Not good sellers, and not really well regarded even now.
    I admit that it would be a barrier with me. I would keep looking at it and thinking "It's not a real pinball machine", no matter how cool it is. It's gotta be arcade/route ready.

    #41 8 years ago
    Quoted from RCA1:

    I would keep looking at it and thinking "It's not a real pinball machine", no matter how cool it is. It's gotta be arcade/route ready.

    What if it WAS arcade/route ready -> but at the level of 1985 (but a little better)?

    Would that still not be good enough to buy?

    #42 8 years ago

    The only way you can make a say $3500 REAL pinball game is to do it in China. I'm thinking it might be hard even then. The game has to be good/ to be adopted, crappy pins can be had for less than a grand even right now.

    #43 8 years ago

    The only real way to do it is to make the games UPS shippable.

    As soon as you have to start paying 1/6 the cost of the machine to ship it, you are taking a big hit.

    That is why The Pin was the perfect dimensions - just a c hair under the size limit for UPS.

    #44 8 years ago

    A Kiss Pro sells for about $4.5K plus shipping - brand new game, lots of tech, audio, video, lots of rules, lots of programming and licensed. Do you not think that they could make Mata Hari or Firepower and sell it for 3.5K or less?

    #45 8 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    Do you not think that they could make Mata Hari or Firepower and sell it for 3.5K or less?

    Of course they could.

    The Pin is MUCH more complicated, a licensed theme, and could be delivered to your door for $2,500

    #46 8 years ago

    There needs to be a vote for not interested. Naturally everyone wants cheaper pins but how much are you willing to give up? In order to make a super cheap pin, it would have to have a lot more plastic (no wood), very little mechs, dirt simple code, no license theme, and very limited art/design. Why even bother when you could pick up a good used game for same price or cheaper? If Stern rolled out something like this, there would be no mercy from the pinside crowd.

    #47 8 years ago
    Quoted from jawjaw:

    There needs to be a vote for not interested.

    Why can't you just choose "Not interested at 2K or more"? Doesn't this still apply?
    I didn't want to "Split the Vote" unnecessarily. All "Not Interested" votes can simply be placed on the first option.

    #48 8 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    Aurich started an interesting thread, but the discussion focused more on "on location" pins.
    This thread is for discussion of a "Simpler Pin" for home use, at a lower cost -> Say 2K - 2.5K street price.
    We could discuss if it would be possible to make at this price, and would it sell at this price point.
    EDIT >>> IMPORTANT - This would NOT be like "The Pin". This would be FULL SIZE, COMMERCIAL GRADE, BETTER THAN 1980's SS GAMES. Think full size, updated Bally Playboy with LEDs, color LCD, enhanced rules, plus multi-ball, available as a NIB game.
    - Games similar in style to Mata Hari, Fire Power, Flash, Playboy
    - still include ramps and multiballs
    - simple display (still on an LCD) - no need for custom animation
    - simple audio - not a big extra expense per game
    - re-usable cabinet - drop in a new playfield, and update the code -> new game for 1.5K
    - rules could be slightly enhanced -> Mata Hari on steroids -> muti-ball with loop jackpots
    Keys to keeping the cost down...
    - Cabinet cost needs to be controlled - $500 internal cost would be good if possible - is it possible?
    - Cheaper playfield costs -> idea -> plastic playfield using an overlay that masks insert lights
    --- still clearcoat over the overlay -> would this play any different than a wood clearcoated playfield?
    --- simpler switches - no slots cut into playfield
    - Cheap toys -> magnets, spinners, bash toys, saucers, scoops, ramps, lighting effects
    - drop targets?

    Respectfully, I don't see a market for this? The people who wants machines in the home....have an idea of what they are looking for (either NIB or the nastagalia of owning a pin when they were a kid). Anything beyond on that....is going to be a tough sale. A person who isn't so familiar with pinball, isn't going to drop 2.5k for a machine in the home.

    #49 8 years ago

    I can't even stand playing Pro models, when I know there is a better Premium version out there.

    #50 8 years ago
    Quoted from nephasth:

    I can't even stand playing Pro models, when I know there is a better Premium version out there.

    Exactly! These would not be cut down versions of some other Pinball you could buy. They would be one of a kind 80's style games that would be NIB and be BETTER than their 80's counterparts. This would be like buying an improved NIB FirePower today. The rules would be much simpler than today's games and they would still be a blast to play - in perfect NIB condition.

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