(Topic ID: 33200)

A question for the creators of Predator and BHZA


By QuickSilverShelb

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by spfxted
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#51 6 years ago

Jonny, I warned you to back off the ponies. They have taken you to a dark dark place.

Plungemaster- I would be in agreement with you if you were referring to the people who purposely buy up a lot of limited/rare machines and then stack them in their garage waiting to cash out on those that didnt get one because they were hoarded. But I am just buying one, and I am going to play it and not hoard it for resell.

#52 6 years ago

Yeah! I agree!!
#55, 67, 82, 91, 101, 105, 200, 201,205, 210

#53 6 years ago

As far as gameplay, I think the layout reminds me most of BSD. As dangerous as they can be, I'm never thinking 'man, this game would be great if it wasn't for those freakin' center spot targets!'. The game is lots of fun. If it's lacking anything it may be speed and flow, which Predator looks like it addresses with the quick return ramps and controllable orbits more like AFM. Put that in with what looks to be a deep ruleset and a killer theme, with music and callouts pulled straight from the movie and I can't see it sucking. Who knows, though.

I also think Predator is such a top movie on so many levels. It mixes action, horror, suspense and sci-fi very effectively. Plus you've got Arnold. I mean, come on.

Brian

#54 6 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

I hope its great. But when you buy one of these, only because its 250 run, hoping the valua stays high, your nothing but a selfish guy, or.... You buy to sell.
Pick the one which fits you.

So you are ok if others take the risk that a game turns out good or bad and you want to be able to buy one cheaper once it's been proven?

Sounds like you are the selfish one.

#56 6 years ago
Quoted from Betelgeuse:

I'm never thinking 'man, this game would be great if it wasn't for those freakin' center spot targets!'

And don't forget, they DID move them because of all the feedback...

#57 6 years ago

I was concerned about Predator being too basic not having toys, magnets, spinning disc or drop target bank etc..

I view Predator pinball machine as somewhat of a throwback to the 80s like the Predator movie. I mean, going back to 1987 it would almost be possible to have seen a game like Predator pinball. But the guts, meaning the computer and the rules are modern. I was not sure if to would be enough going on, but looking at the gameplay videos and how the sound clips and rules go together it looks very much like a fun game.

As for the limited edition, this is a selling point for me, not that I am viewing it for a huge profit if I sell it, but more that a limited number keeps a floor under the potential loss. If it was unlimited or in production as long as it was able to sell, like WoZ there would be new pins or a lot of used on the market. If there is a huge amount such as WoZ any resale would compete with hundreds and hundreds of other resale as well as new pins off the JJP assemble line. Plus, the need to preorder is greater for a limited production as it may do difficult to source one the secondary market so that is why I preordered.

#58 6 years ago
Quoted from sammiesguys:

Im buying Predator to leave it in the box and never play it, ever. Then I'm going to show it to homeless people and tell them how much food it could buy. Then I'm going to kick them in the nuts.
I think a lot of other owners are planning on doing this as well.

Not me. I bought two of them. I am gong to burn one of them in my parking lot to keep the homeless warm. And to make my other Predator even more desirable. Only 249 left.

#59 6 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I was concerned about Predator being too basic not having toys, magnets, spinning disc or drop target bank etc..

I view Predator pinball machine as somewhat of a throwback to the 80s like the Predator movie.

When I spoke to them, I explained I wasn't a big fan of mini-playfields, 4 or more flippers, magnets, etc. They said...us too! So I was real happy that Predator had some cool toys, ramps, kick schwantzes, etc, without all the crazy stuff. I DO like drop targets though....

#60 6 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

3. I want a rare machine. I haven't been buying machines forever to have a collection where I have equity built up so that I can sell one to fund others, or swap machines. I will never have the collection that others have, but at least I can have a rare one that they don't have.

^ THIS. Theme & comparatively low NIB price also. (I'm not wealthy. This will likely be the only NIB purchase I ever make... unless I hit a lottery. And I rarely play the lottery.)
Being a sys11 fan, I also like the somewhat simple layout. Deep ruleset will offset that anyway for longevity. I'm one of those oddballs that will walk right by a TZ or TSPP in a damn hurry to get to FT or DW.
If Predator kicks a$$ & everyone is scrambling to buy HUO down the road, so much the better if I ever want to sell or trade. In fact, I already have two local pinsiders calling dibs on this pin that hasn't even hit my doorstep. If it bombs, and mind you I don't think it will, I'll be able to see it coming & get out since I'm near the end of the production line. Stupid like a fox.
Kudos to Skit-B for getting my attention with their fresh approach to theme & business model. It's like they are making this pin just for me. "A game for Joe-six-pack, by Joe-six-pack."

#61 6 years ago

Skit -B
Makes pinball machines for the American working man cause thats who he is and that's who he cares about

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=jRHULPFE3zo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DjRHULPFE3zo

#62 6 years ago

That reminds me of my favorite closing credits song sung by a homicidal operating system.

[Aperture Science: We do what we must because we can
for the good of all of us except for the ones who are dead.
But there's no sense crying over every mistake,
you just keep on trying 'till you run out of cake,
and the science gets done, and you make a neat (pinball)
for the people who are still alive.]

Someone make me a Portal pin, stat. I will buy and hoard them all.

-1
#63 6 years ago
Quoted from jpop:

it's not about production numbers (or money) it's about making amazing pinball loading with inventive features....as the **standard** game. The UE or Ultimate Edition. So we do not make an LE with a skimped-out low cost model, but just **one** design (One Ring to Rule Them All) with as much crap as we can fit in (afford).
This is how I was taught how to design games at WMS and the only way I really want to work. I think it makes the best pinball for my fans and the community. Jpop

With all due respect, what if TZ or TAF was released with a UE concept in mind? Can you imagine only 250 Twilight Zones or The Addams Families in the world? I know what your shooting for but if you machine turns out to be a winner (at a reasonable price to boot) wouldn't it be nice for the masses to have the opportunity to play and or own it as well? I Just want to be able to play the machine before I jump in and if it's really good, I would like to have the chance to own the "art".

What's so maddening about our society is the constant speculation that influences our emotions and forces our decisions.

I guess I relate this all to Sterns Family Guy when it was released. I loved the TV show Family Guy and I got the chance to play it at PHOF. I really liked it so I purchase one NIB for a reasonable price (mid $4k). I would like to have this opportunity with your machine and I suppose that's why I am a little frustrated. Like someone said in an earlier post "you snooze, you loose" right!

I miss the old days of play it first and if you like it, buy it. I think that was around 2007. C'mon Jpop bring back those Williams days and, if it's good, make a whole bunch of them. Your keeping the Williams spirit in terms of quality, how bout a little Williams "quantity" spirit.

QSS

#64 6 years ago
Quoted from QuickSilverShelb:

With all due respect, what if TZ or TAF was released with a UE concept in mind? Can you imagine only 250 Twilight Zones or The Addams Families in the world? I know what your shooting for but if you machine turns out to be a winner (at a reasonable price to boot) wouldn't it be nice for the masses to have the opportunity to play and or own it as well? I Just want to be able to play the machine before I jump in and if it's really good, I would like to have the chance to own the "art".
What's so maddening about our society is the constant speculation that influences our emotions and forces our decisions.
I guess I relate this all to Sterns Family Guy when it was released. I loved the TV show Family Guy and I got the chance to play it at PHOF. I really liked it so I purchase one NIB for a reasonable price (mid $4k). I would like to have this opportunity with your machine and I suppose that's why I am a little frustrated. Like someone said in an earlier post "you snooze, you loose" right!
I miss the old days of play it first and if you like it, buy it. I think that was around 2007. C'mon Jpop bring back those Williams days and, if it's good, make a whole bunch of them. Your keeping the Williams spirit in terms of quality, how bout a little Williams "quantity" spirit.
QSS

It's like you didn't even read what he said.

#65 6 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

It's like you didn't even read what he said.

I just reread Jpop's post. I didn't imply for him to follow what is "evil" about a pinball manufacturer, I was hoping he would follow what is "good" about a pinball manufacturer. He can take the "good aspects" of listening to the masses and bring it to the masses as well.

That's all.

QSS

#66 6 years ago
Quoted from QuickSilverShelb:

I know what your shooting for but if you machine turns out to be a winner (at a reasonable price to boot) wouldn't it be nice for the masses to have the opportunity to play and or own it as well? I Just want to be able to play the machine before I jump in and if it's really good, I would like to have the chance to own the "art".
QSS

I will bring mine to the masses! I promise I will bring it to Pin festivals and tournaments around.
I do not care about mine losing HUO status. A good machine should be shared. Come and enjoy it. We cannot own all machines we like.

-3
#67 6 years ago

I think I'm going to have to agree with the OP on this one, with respect to those who hold different opinions. I think it's sad enough that the older pins are limited in numbers but now we have to have limited numbers on the new ones as well?

I understand that collectors want to have an exclusive item and Jpop wants to create something without creative restrictions and have a personal relationship with his customers, but maybe there's a way to satisfy all of these needs. What if the first small batch of customers get to have some input into the game during development and also recieve a machine that has a plaque or something on it to distinguish it. Then, after this group has their games, why not reproduce it in greater numbers (even at the same price point) so that more people can enjoy it and the work that went into developing the game is allowed to have the greatest possible benefit. If the designers themselves aren't interested (or don't have the resources) to produce more of the title, they could outsource the manufacturing of the second run to Spooky, JJP or whoever.

Seems like most of the people that object to these machines being made in greater numbers want to have something rare because they feel their collection is not good enough or they want the machine they buy to increase in value over time. What if we look beyond our own collections and think about what kind of world we want to live in. Do we want only a few of each machine locked away in people's basements, or do we want as many as possible out in the world for everyone to enjoy: to buy and sell in the future, to trade, to swap, to put on location and take to shows?

Personally, I wish there was a Spirit or a Big Bang Bar, a Magic Girl or a Zombie Adventureland on every street corner...

Now, some people are saying that it's not fair for a few people to have to bear the 'risk' of a new venture while others jump on board later but what if no one was "forced" to risk anything. Those that like a bit of adventure, want to get in early (and can afford to) can do so, get a limited item and a more direct experience with the designer. Others who have to be more careful with their money, or want to try the machine before they buy, wait for the later run. Surely having more options is better for everyone, as everyone is different and in different circumstances.

I believe the work of talented people like Jpop and the Predator creators should be available to as many people as possible. How can pinball really grow if the machines made by the best are kept hidden from a wider audience?

Jpop, I'm glad that you are designing your machines the way you want, to make them the best they can be, but once they are done, why not let more of your fans and the community have a chance to own and play one?

With respect, SV.

10
#68 6 years ago

I think there are some assumptions here that producing machines in quantity ain't no big thing.

You're talking about 2 upstarts, limited budgets, limited staff, it will be a huge accomplishment that these machines see light of day in any quantity. But then to produce hundreds and hundreds, without a factory, that is no small task. I think the Predator guys with their 250 are facing a big challenge already.

SkitB do seem to have plans to grow the business beyond boutique, they've said that after Predator their next pin will have a bigger run. So let these guys walk before they run.

#69 6 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

LOL, glad you actually got some play time on the pin before calling it boring. I know both people who have played the demo version of Predator and done a lot of research on the project that would totally disagree with you StevenP.

Fair enough. I acknowledged that I hadn't played it, but have watched video of demo gameplay and looked carefully at the layout. (Evaluating playfield layouts is a hobby of mine; one of my fave set of pin books is the Pinball Compendium series; I loved going thru the older games in the 1970-82 volume, comparing layouts to the play experience and imagining it on games I haven't played.) I hope it's a lot of fun as I am all for new pin ventures like this; it just seems to be a vanilla layout. I don't see a lot of 'satisfying' shots or cool toys, which has become par for new pins. And I really don't like those 2 standups almost dead center halfway up. If they work with the layout, that's cool, but looks to be a potentially cruel ball drain feature.

#70 6 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I think there are some assumptions here that producing machines in quantity ain't no big thing.
You're talking about 2 upstarts, limited budgets, limited staff, it will be a huge accomplishment that these machines see light of day in any quantity. But then to produce hundreds and hundreds, without a factory, that is no small task. I think the Predator guys with their 250 are facing a big challenge already.
SkitB do seem to have plans to grow the business beyond boutique, they've said that after Predator their next pin will have a bigger run. So let these guys walk before they run.

Agree 100%. Besides the assembly hassles, there is a HUGE up-front cost for ordering a zillion different custom parts from vendors (in quantity), getting artwork printed, etc.

#71 6 years ago

OK, this is absolutely not smartass (for once) and I'm being sincere. Honestly, how big of a pinball community is there that is willing to pump thousands of dollars into the pin market each year for all these tables if they were all readily available? I know that it is making a comeback due to people my age finally being able to afford them, more virtual tables available on more platforms, retro resurgance, etc. However, there have been NO public places around me to play for the last 15 years save the new arcade that literally opened this past Friday, and they only have 4 pins and already a few bad reviews. NO routes, NO bars, NO restaurants, NO collectors opening up their houses to the public... nothing. Luckily I found one (that's ONE) Pinsider close to me and was able to get some pins from him, otherwise my only option at all is the retail shop that was mentioned earlier that wants over $4000 for a HS2. I have no public place to play, no cheap options, and no hope of resuragnce in this area.

The only way that I can play is to buy them and put them in my house. I'm sure lots of us will open their doors to fellow collectors and let them play, but I'm not spending $5K+ on a machine to put it on the corner to let someone's kid abuse it for the few quarters it may produce in "profit" for me. At $1/play, that's 5,000 games that would have to be played on it to 'break even,' not counting maintenance and obvious wear/tear to the machine in the meantime.

I am pretty sure that the majority of people who are buying the "limited" machines are also putting them into their house and not putting them out on route for others to play. So then, honestly, how many people are out there to pump thousands of dollars a year into buying all the available machines to support hundreds upon hundreds of each to be made? Right now you've got 1 major company (Stern) pumping out 2-3 machines a year, plus JJP, plus SkitB, P3, Heighway, Spooky, etc all in the works to produce more. Let's be realistic and say that there are 7 new machines produced in total by all per year. If you've got 7 machines being produced for "everyone that wanted one" at a conservative cost of $5,000 per machine, that means that your average collector needs $35,000/yr plus the space to put them. That doesn't include money/space for any of the used games, or take into consideration the used market for these brand new games since not everyone keeps their games forever and there will be a big secondary market if tons of games are produced. I don't have the space or $35,000/year to begin to be able to keep up with that. I have to be selective with the little extra money that I have to put into this hobby, and I believe that I'm not the only one in this situation.

When TAF and TZ were made, pinball was a public thing, with public places to play, and a huge market that produced income. Now there are very few actual operators, and if I take their word for it on Pinside alone, they are in it more for the joy/nostalgia/fun instead of pure profit. Between maintenance and high costs of new machines there isn't a ton of profit to be made. Yes, it would be great if all the machines were available to everyone to play. Yes, I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT if there was some place near me with new/used/operating machines that I could go pump quarters into instead of saving up money for 1 pin that I can afford. I honestly have never played 98% of the pinball machines out there, and the ones that I do play reside in my house and my mom's house because we have pumped thousands of dollars into them to be able to do so.

Times have changed, and until arcades are once again a viable money-making public entity that creates a demand for hundreds of multiple machines to be made every year, there simply isn't a market for them. Botique companies are appealing to the smaller masses because the pinball community itself is a small sub-set of the general public. The general public has no interest in pumping thousands of dollars into one game that requires constant maintenance and/or breaks and has to be returned or maintained (see The Pin) when they can get a PS3/XBox/Wii/Vita and play games on it, or simply download Pinball Arcade on their iPhone and pay less than $5 per table. I've told a few friends how much money I've spend just on JP sitting in my house and/or how much my mom has spent on the 4 machines she's bought in the last 9 months, and they think we are insane. Pinball collectors as a general group ARE insane, but that's what makes the hobby interesting and fun.

EDIT- closing thought
Just because we all want to be able to play the newest and coolest machines and have the chance to own one for our very own does not mean that there is a viable market that would support this.

Supply and demand. Period.

(mic drop)

#72 6 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I think there are some assumptions here that producing machines in quantity ain't no big thing.
You're talking about 2 upstarts, limited budgets, limited staff, it will be a huge accomplishment that these machines see light of day in any quantity. But then to produce hundreds and hundreds, without a factory, that is no small task. I think the Predator guys with their 250 are facing a big challenge already.
SkitB do seem to have plans to grow the business beyond boutique, they've said that after Predator their next pin will have a bigger run. So let these guys walk before they run.

This is so true. Skit-B is doing this out of their basement with no deposits ($250 refundable per machine is negligable at best). They are fully self funding this very expensive venture and if they suceed (and I believe they will just based on their drive) it will be a monumental accomplishment.

They are building these machines out of their garage, with no money, no history, no assembly line workers, no purchasing agents to help them get better pricing on materials, nothing but the desire to make us a cool machine with a cool rule set.

I can't believe people would bag on those guys for not committing to make 1,000 or more machines. That just blows my mind. Talk about some serious cry babies. Wow!!!

Why don't all of you who are complaining contact Skit-B and ask them what you can do to help them. I've done that, as have others...you want them to suceed and make more machines...see what you can do to help them.

#73 6 years ago

Well said, blondetall. I will add that, near me, there are quite a few collectors. One of the things we try to keep to a minimum is having duplicate games. When you put so much time and $ into a collection, nothing sucks more than 3 guys within 5 miles having the same games. There are soooo many games out there to choose from and it looks like soon there will be a lot more. It would be kind of boring if everyone had the same lineup. Every time my friend up the street gets a game, I don't go 'oooh, now I want one too!'. I'm just glad to have the opportunity to get some serious game time in on it.

#74 6 years ago

Yes! Finding more and more people close to me that have pins!

#75 6 years ago

(Chattanooga is really pretty. We have a river, and mountains, and the fastest internet in the nation. And somehow we're supposed to be mentioned in Iron Man 3. Y'all move on down here so I can play your games.)
Oh neat. I just realized I can see my office in this pic.

image.jpg

#76 6 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

Oh neat. I just realized I can see my office in this pic.

I think I see a truck loaded up with sex toys heading out across one of those bridges too!

#77 6 years ago

You're mistaken. I drive a Vibe. (seriously, he he)

#78 6 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

Oh neat. I just realized I can see my office in this pic.

Circles and arrows, please...

#79 6 years ago

How are those Vibes rated ?

#80 6 years ago

Ted, are you bringing me a pinball machine to work? Awesome. To find me, just go across the bridge on the right, up the hill to the $200M campus that looks like our logo, and make any pinball noise. I'm one of 6000 cube jockeys here. I'll find you.

I love my Vibe. I use it daily. (To get to work and back, you dirty-minded boys.) Unless I'm driving the roadster, which is paid for by job #2... and now we're back to vibe talk again.

Wait a minute, I think we got off track here... back to your reguarly scheduled pinball discussion.

campus.jpg

#81 6 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

That reminds me of my favorite closing credits song sung by a homicidal operating system.
[Aperture Science: We do what we must because we can
for the good of all of us except for the ones who are dead.
But there's no sense crying over every mistake,
you just keep on trying 'till you run out of cake,
and the science gets done, and you make a neat (pinball)
for the people who are still alive.]
Someone make me a Portal pin, stat. I will buy and hoard them all.

#82 6 years ago

Nice looking complex! I was only saying Vibes rated because I like the way it sounded...

#83 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

You have to buy a new license package each time.
Let's say you agree to $50 a game, so your first batch comes out to $12,500 for 250 games.
You run those and there are still people who want one.
You call the rights owner and this time they want $60 a game, because obviously you are making money on the title. It's too much headache to for them to license just a few games, so they will only do another 250. So you spend $15,000 this time
Now you start taking orders and find that out of the 100s of people who were "serious" about ordering, maybe 50 send a deposit. The market for Predator has saturated.
You now have effectively spent $300 per machine for the license.

Alternatively, once the machine is done, they can re-theme it fairly easily, like what Stern did with Family Guy/Shrek.

#84 6 years ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

What if the first small batch of customers get to have some input into the game during development and also recieve a machine that has a plaque or something on it to distinguish it.

Seriously? I'm risking 5k on Skit-b for: a) something they're already doing (buyer input) and b) a Plaque? (again something they're already doing).

I'm paying 5k because it's a limited run, because it will possibly incorporate some out-of-the-box thinking in the software/rules, because it will use hand-drawn art and because I think the theme is a great choice.

Quoted from solarvalue:

Then, after this group has their games, why not reproduce it in greater numbers (even at the same price point) so that more people can enjoy it and the work that went into developing the game is allowed to have the greatest possible benefit.

The work going into this game *is* having it's greatest possible benefit to the buyers and to the creators: it's their jumping off point to launch a new company.

Quoted from solarvalue:

If the designers themselves aren't interested (or don't have the resources) to produce more of the title, they could outsource the manufacturing of the second run to Spooky, JJP or whoever.

Because there's nothing more a pinball company wants but to help their competitor succeed.

Really?

Quoted from solarvalue:

Seems like most of the people that object to these machines being made in greater numbers want to have something rare because they feel their collection is not good enough or they want the machine they buy to increase in value over time. What if we look beyond our own collections and think about what kind of world we want to live in. Do we want only a few of each machine locked away in people's basements, or do we want as many as possible out in the world for everyone to enjoy: to buy and sell in the future, to trade, to swap, to put on location and take to shows?

Ah yes, the "think of pinball's future!" argument. (cue endangered species plea to humanity music).

But then you combo it up with the fragile ego/small penis collector argument. Well played. (I'm starting to think we're being trolled.)

To answer the first, you seem rather naive about what it takes to bring a product to market. You seem to have this perspective that you're the kid and skit-b is the parent, and they could give you candy but just choose not to. Like they've got a whole warehouse full of candy and they just decided to give it to only a few special kids.

On the second, I've heard this "collectors rocking themselves to sleep with their A-list pins" argument so many times... what do haters rock themselves to sleep with? A smug sense of superiority, I guess. (I hear that'll be worth 10k by Christmas.)

Quoted from solarvalue:

Personally, I wish there was a Spirit or a Big Bang Bar, a Magic Girl or a Zombie Adventureland on every street corner...

As they say, "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

#85 6 years ago

Its just a mather of opinion. Some dont understand why you would like to have a rare pin, when many many others could enjoy it too. (Its a pinball, an entertainment machine, not a Van Gogh)

But..... I do understand the argument that you guys took the risc, thats a fair point which i do understand.

But what if this pin will be unbelievable great. 250 made and sold for 4k.

Would you guys then have a problem if they gonne sell another 500 for lets say 8k? Same pin,twice the price. Nothing new.

I think it would sell. You guys have a mayor win, and more great machines on the planet. Is that not what we all want?

Skittb could make a great profit.

If that happens, 750 predator pins in the world. Is still very very rare on a 7 billion populated planet.

Would you still have problems with that Blonde?

Ps. Somebody told me that i want to be in, and thats why i started this discussion. But thats not the case, i will never ever have 4k for a pin unless the lottery hits me. It is just my opinion and i am not a player in this)

#86 6 years ago

I'd have a problem with SkitB getting done with their 250 run then re-running another 500 Predators MOSTLY because that would delay their #2 pin, which they already have the ideas and code for. The reason they are starting with Predator being a run of only 250 is so that they (literally Some Kids In The Basement, a few dudes in their garage putting these together without millions in presale money, company buildings, factory workers, investors, etc) can prove what they can do and use any money that is profit towards building the company and brand. That way, when pin #2 comes out and people see what they did with Predator, there is a greater demand, they can make more than 250, and they can actually make a profit. There WILL be more than 250 made of pin #2, I can basically guarantee you that. But as a small start-up company they have to keep their first venture managable and small enough so that they can actually deliver it. Not only physically deliver it, but deliver a kick-ass pin despite everyone saying that a few guys in a garage can't do it, and do it so well that their machine is desired and wanted as much as or more than all the other available pins for sale, both used/resell and NIB.

Also, it isn't $4,000. Right now they are looking at $4,750, but even that isn't set in stone because they are working on making the best machine with the best products they can, and could very well go up. (Which means even more people would drop off the list.) In every update we get they are explaining exactly what products they are choosing and why. It could change. Let's also bring in the fact that when they stated that they had "sold out" and the intial 250 machines were claimed, there was a waiting list of at least 40 people at one point. Once they asked for a $250 deposit (which they literally took a vote on to ensure that we were ok doing so, and told us exactly what it was for- to get products that they could buy cheaper than rent in the long run since they would need them for production) then a lot of people dropped off. March 15th was the deposit deadline, and in the last few days many people have come back on the main thread with "Yay! I got on the list!" We haven't even gotten to the "half down due when your number comes up" part, which will see even more people dropping off if/when they cant come up with the money, or because they are not impressed with the reviews of the first machines delivered to customers.

I hope it is absolutely a kick-butt machine, simply because that is what they are going to have to deliver to get these 250 produced, paid for, and out the door. I really really hope that they get these 250 sold and people want more, because that means that there is hope for their company and that they are doing something right, and can move on with their second pin. I see absolutely no reason that running another set of them would benefit them in any way, because those of us who are on the Predator list have already asked if we can get our same machine # reserved for the second pin, meaning they've got sales waiting when they move to pin #2. You know what they said when we begged for first shot? That they would be glad to do it if we wanted it and asked for it, but that seemed like pushy marketing to them and they didn't want to push that on us. They are trying to put their machines where their mouth is and actually prove what they can do, and let the machines do the talking.

As my husband said to me earlier... A lot of times small niche companies will do a limited run on their first product they produce. The limited run is to help insure the product will sell out. Keeping the product on a limited run and not re-running it rewards the people who took the risk and bought that first product. If the product is crap then there is still the rarity factor. If it is great, not re-running the product can be seen as a "thank you for believing in us". Leaving it as a limited run in SkitB's case is critical to the success of the company.

#87 6 years ago

Oh, I forgot about the "running more at $8K" thing. Them selling more machines at a higher price would benefit me in absolutely no way whatsoever. As I've stated, I have no intentions of reselling my machine, hence the "I don't care about the value." If I was out to make money on it, and the price point went up to $8K, then I'd have a perceived value of $8K instantly and that would be seen as a benefit... if I were planning to sell it. Which I am not. I'm going to play the heck out of it and decorate my lounge around it.

But as you've stated, you can't afford the $4K+ version and aren't even a player in this, so why would you want a pin that you desire to immediately go up that much more in price as well? These "many others" that you want to enjoy the pin as well, where are they? Do they have $8K to spend on one if/when more are made? And if so, why didn't they get one of the original 250 since from what I can tell over 30-40 people on the wait list just advanced to the main list of having one. Do you/they just want someone else to buy them and put them on location somewhere so that you can maybe put a few quarters in it and play a few games now and then? That seems kinda selfish too... to make a company bear all the risks of making more machines and pissing off their initial buyers who helped get them started, and then wanting someone else to buy them/maintain them, just so that you can play them because you can't afford one on your own now.

And honestly, I do know how you feel on that point of wanting to play machines that you don't have access to. I'd love to be able to play a MM, or a TOM, or a NGG. But you know what? There's nobody around me with one, I can't afford one, and therefore I don't have one. I play my virtual version if there's one available and I play the machines that I do have. I don't sit around wishing that someone would rerun all the old machines that I can't have at a price point that I couldn't afford to pay anyway. I get jealous of the people that can afford the huge collections and get whatever they want. Like you said, it's an entertainment machine and very much a luxury, and I know that I feel lucky to be able to even own the 2 that I personally have.

#88 6 years ago

Last 2 posts...................ditto!

#89 6 years ago

Ted, I'm still at work, and I still don't see you anywhere nearby with that pinball you were supposed to bring me. Probably because you're too busy waiting around for me to type a ton of stuff, then say 'ditto.'

#90 6 years ago

You know me too well!

#91 6 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Its just a mather of opinion. Some dont understand why you would like to have a rare pin, when many many others could enjoy it too. (Its a pinball, an entertainment machine, not a Van Gogh)
But..... I do understand the argument that you guys took the risc, thats a fair point which i do understand.
But what if this pin will be unbelievable great. 250 made and sold for 4k.
Would you guys then have a problem if they gonne sell another 500 for lets say 8k? Same pin,twice the price. Nothing new.
I think it would sell. You guys have a mayor win, and more great machines on the planet. Is that not what we all want?
Skittb could make a great profit.
If that happens, 750 Predator pins in the world. Is still very very rare on a 7 billion populated planet.
Would you still have problems with that Blonde?
Ps. Somebody told me that i want to be in, and thats why i started this discussion. But thats not the case, i will never ever have 4k for a pin unless the lottery hits me. It is just my opinion and i am not a player in this)

I think you really just making these comments to stir up the pot and act the part of an Internet troll.

Otherwise, you are just someone who expects others to take the risk and pay the price of development. If things turn out well, you feel like you have the right and others have the obligation to make the results of that risk taking available to you at no cost. Symptomatic of problems that plague entrepreneurship in our economy.

Your prior comments suggest that you would not be a buyer of additional games at a higher price. You're just trying to justify your argument that these new creators should make their product available to everyone despite how the initial run of games was marketed.

#92 6 years ago

Why am i trolling, we just have a discussion. I give arguments, and blonde give me some back. Nothing wrong with that.

Blonde, you make so many assumptions which are wrong. I think you dont get my point. But ok, i leave it here. Some people cant handle a discussion with people with opnions which are not theirs.

#93 6 years ago

This discussion seems to be going around in circles doesn't it? Skit-B is making 250 Predator pins. That is a fact that has been handed down directly from them to their future customers (those actually putting money down to buy them). I get that you don't like the fact that it is limited run plungemater but that is just the way it is.

As Tigerlaw points out they had an up hill battle just to get the point they are at now. They are charging a more then fair price for their first labor intensive project when compared to other manufactures. Other manufactures that are mass producing pins are now charging up to $7500-$8000 for new pins which is a steep price to pay IMO. So we should be applauding their effort not criticizing them for not making thousands of them on their first go at it.

Quoted from StevenP:

I don't see a lot of 'satisfying' shots or cool toys, which has become par for new pins.

I find it hard to predict what a satisfying shot is until I actually play the pin and hit the shot. As far as toys they have not been revealed yet but Back Alley Creations are making them which is the same company that made the toys for WOZ. Making conclusions regarding a pin that you have not played or even seen the final version of is presumptuous IMO.

#94 6 years ago

Predator and BHZA will be sold or resold in the future, it's no different than Tron LE or XM LE or BBB. If someone wants to sell it it will be sold at a profit or loss. Lots of people have lost money on XM LE. Not every game will be like Tron LE or BBB.

If you want a Predator or Tron LE after they are sold out, place a want ad or look out for the for sale threads.

Chances are if you can't afford a BHZA on resale, than likely you can't afford one now. If you want a BHZA get on the wait list someone might drop out, it doesn't sound like people want to buy one, just that they want them to be unlimited production in case it turns out to be the next Tron LE or whatever, it souds like some people are complainig because they can't afford the new game, guess what i cant afford a new Ferrari. i dont hate Ferrari for making expensive cars or i dont hate people that can afford to buy them. Guess what not everyone can afford a $10k pin or even if they can, not everyone will buy one as they think you can get two other pins for the same cost.

I don't hate Tron LE or people that own Tron LE because they are selling for $10k. I can take my $10k and buy a Tron LE or buy a BHZA; or a take $10k and buy a Tron pro and a Predator. Or buy 4 games like T2, BOP etc...

If you miss out on one game there are thousands of others. If I get Predator, than I can't get SM or IM, I've used up that $5000 and the room on Predator so can't get the SM or IM or whatever. Not everyone can buy every game they want. So you miss out on Predator, either get Skit-B next game or get Stern StarTrek or JJP Hobbit or get a used TZ or whatever.

#95 6 years ago

The Dude Abides

#96 6 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Why am i trolling, we just have a discussion. I give arguments, and blonde give me some back. Nothing wrong with that.
Blonde, you make so many assumptions which are wrong. I think you dont get my point. But ok, i leave it here. Some people cant handle a discussion with people with opnions which are not theirs.

OK. So you are not trolling for a response. In that case, we get your point but don't agree with it. So I think we can handle the discussion. Perhaps you can't accept that we don't agree with your position.

I'd ask what assumptions Blonde got wrong but I don't think she did misunderstand you. You're basically saying that we are wrong because we don't agree with you. Again, self centered and indicative of why you think you are entitled to the benefits of other people's risk taking.

Agree to disagree and let it drop.

#97 6 years ago

Apparently I don't get your point. I am discussing, and I'm giving you plenty of facts. I haven't even gotten hateful or called you names, except for selfish, which you called everyone that is on the BHZA and Predator lists. Heck, I even told you that I agree with you on a point.

Please tell me the assumptions that are wrong. Because I don't see any. From where I'm standing your point is that everyone that wants one should be able to have one. You've been stating this over and over, despite now saying that you can't afford one anyway and that if they re-ran them at a price point double what the initial investors paid that somehow us original buyers should be ok with that because our machine value would go up. Yet you also say that one of the big problems with pinball machines today is the high prices. So yes, you are correct, I'm totally confused at what you are saying. I can handle discussing just fine. Hell, I've written way too many words for half the people on here to even read (TLDR) because I had the evidence to back them up. I've got degrees in business and marketing along with multiple certifications on both areas and 10 years of business experience working retail, corporate, and running my own sales business. Oh, and I'm female, so I can argue anything. So please, tell me again how wrong I am. In detail this time.

#98 6 years ago

...

aint-got-time-to-bleed.jpg

#99 6 years ago

Wait... I just realized that maybe I'm being punked by Kevin/SkitB. Maybe, just maybe, they are testing to see how loyal their customers are. Did I pass the test Kevin? Do I get my Predator now? Because I seem to be drinking AND serving the SkitB Kool-Aid today in high quantities.

(Don't forget my pony.)

#100 6 years ago

Ditt...oh never mind...

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