(Topic ID: 33200)

A question for the creators of Predator and BHZA


By QuickSilverShelb

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by spfxted
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There are 125 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 6 years ago

I've been following the creation of these two pins via the threads here on Pinside. I have particularly enjoyed the Predator thread and I have read all 1200+ posts. I am not on the preorder list for either machine. At some point both games will be in the homes of the people who have preordered.

My question is: If these games are deemed a success or even a hit, why wouldn't you all run a second or even a third batch? All your R&D is done so it seems like an easy way to please allot of people and make things a little easier on yourselves from a financial perspective.

I personally am not a huge preorder kinda guy as I like to see the end results before I dive in. This is one thing that I really like about Stern and their willingness to rerun a game that has a demand for it. This is how I ended up with my LOTR LE.

Keep up the good work and I look forward to hearing the final reviews on your machines. I probably will never get to actually play one of your games unless it winds up at the PHOF or you rerun a second batch.

Thanks guys.

QSS

#2 6 years ago

I do not work for either team, but I am pretty sure the Predator liscense agreement is only for 250...

#3 6 years ago

Could the Predator agreement be renewed for another run? BHZA does not have this limitation.

QSS

#4 6 years ago

Not to put words into their mouth, but I think, people are on board for BHZA as an example because it is so limited, as in if you want it, order it. There will 3x as many Tron LE for example as BHZA. So people say will if Tron LE is worth $9k when there is also 900 regular Trons as well. It may be worth a chance on a limited edition. 10x as many Tron pins out there, easy to pick one up on the open market, with 124 total BHZA it may be harder to find after the fact.

Now if jpop said we are just going to make as many BHZA as we can sell. Likely a lot of people would have just wait and see and pick one up later.

I think it's remarkable that JJP was able to presell 1000 WoZ LE pinballs. Don't think that is any easy task.

Part of the reason I'm getting Predator, is because it is limited. I could just get a LOTR or SM for the same price and know what I have and resale etc. but the Predator is a chance it may not be great. So at least it will have rarity. So likely it will hold some value even if it's not as good as say SM. I know I can pick up a SM anytime I want since there are thousands made, if on the other hand it turns out Predator is better than SM for example, how likely will it be up for sale? Not as likely.

#5 6 years ago

Both are promoted as "limited editions" so they are under a moral obligation to their current owners to not just keep producing them. Even if they technically could, they wouldn't want to burn those supporters.

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from QuickSilverShelb:

My question is: If these games are deemed a success or even a hit, why wouldn't you all run a second or even a third batch?

You have to buy a new license package each time.

Let's say you agree to $50 a game, so your first batch comes out to $12,500 for 250 games.

You run those and there are still people who want one.

You call the rights owner and this time they want $60 a game, because obviously you are making money on the title. It's too much headache to for them to license just a few games, so they will only do another 250. So you spend $15,000 this time

Now you start taking orders and find that out of the 100s of people who were "serious" about ordering, maybe 50 send a deposit. The market for Predator has saturated.

You now have effectively spent $300 per machine for the license.

#7 6 years ago

I agree with the previous posts about the promised limited aspects of the machines. In the case of BHZA though, I think JPOP is first, and foremost, an artist. I own one of his previous machines, TOTAN, have polished it up nicely in brass, and can't walk by it without pausing in awe. It's probably not my favorite playing pin, but currently, it would be last of my collection out my door. I think he prefers the small batch, "creations" such as BHZA and MG. I like that and if BHZA is close to what I expect, I'll be a long term JPOP consumer on future creations.

3 months later
#8 6 years ago

yes, but there are 250 confirmed orders and more than 40 on the waiting list. I was following this thing from the beginning but missed out on the preorder. I would love to order one but they are at 250, and trust me Im a landscaper putting my wife through nursing school so 5 large is a large chunk of change but I feel it would be worth it.
It sucks cause I missed the BBB and the LOTR LE when they were 5 grand so stuck on a waiting list
oh well
roger

#9 6 years ago

I was fortunate enough to play a proto type predator at Allentow last year and have a long talk to the guys. That was the final deciding figure for me. I guess you snooze you loose in these situations. Funny thing is I am the one that most of the time waits to long and get shut out. Hope this time I made the rite decision. Here is the game at Allentown 2012. It has come a long way in one year. predator_allentown2012.jpg

-9
#10 6 years ago
Quoted from dannunz:

I was fortunate enough to play a proto type Predator at Allentow last year and have a long talk to the guys. That was the final deciding figure for me. I guess you snooze you loose in these situations. Funny thing is I am the one that most of the time waits to long and get shut out. Hope this time I made the rite decision. Here is the game at Allentown 2012. It has come a long way in one year.

That pf looks borring and HORRIBLE! Those 2 standups dead-center facing the flippers below the pops? Really? 2 simple return ramps. meh. One vuk. Scoop hidden on the right. Kickout on the left. Unless I'm missing some cool mechs, this looks like the Ro Go of the DMD era.

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

That pf looks borring and HORRIBLE!

I've played it. It's a fun layout.

#12 6 years ago

If Predator were to be available to anyone that wanted one, I would cancel my order now. Part of the fun of being the 'guinea pigs' of a new company is taking the risk and being rewarded with a rare machine. I have limited funds and limited space, and want the cool rare machine. Sure, it may suck, but with only 250 people having one it is so limited that it is still cool. (But it wont be bad. I have faith.)

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

That pf looks borring and HORRIBLE! Those 2 standups dead-center facing the flippers below the pops? Really? 2 simple return ramps. meh. One vuk. Scoop hidden on the right. Kickout on the left. Unless I'm missing some cool mechs, this looks like the Ro Go of the DMD era.

Predator is a work in progress and I highly doubt the finished product will be boring.
http://www.skitbpinball.com/index.html

#14 6 years ago
Quoted from QuickSilverShelb:

I've been following the creation of these two pins via the threads here on Pinside. I have particularly enjoyed the Predator thread and I have read all 1200+ posts. I am not on the preorder list for either machine. At some point both games will be in the homes of the people who have preordered.
My question is: If these games are deemed a success or even a hit, why wouldn't you all run a second or even a third batch? All your R&D is done so it seems like an easy way to please allot of people and make things a little easier on yourselves from a financial perspective.
I personally am not a huge preorder kinda guy as I like to see the end results before I dive in. This is one thing that I really like about Stern and their willingness to rerun a game that has a demand for it. This is how I ended up with my LOTR LE.
Keep up the good work and I look forward to hearing the final reviews on your machines. I probably will never get to actually play one of your games unless it winds up at the PHOF or you rerun a second batch.
Thanks guys.
QSS

Because part of the reason I am willing to risk my money and take the plunge as someone who is pre-ordering is knowing that it will be a rare game. The 'rarity' is part of what they are selling in addition to the game itself, and the rarity has value. If they were to flood the market after the fact, they'd basically be pulling a bait and switch and NO ONE would ever go into a pre-order or limited run of theirs in the future.

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

That pf looks borring and HORRIBLE! Those 2 standups dead-center facing the flippers below the pops? Really? 2 simple return ramps. meh. One vuk. Scoop hidden on the right. Kickout on the left. Unless I'm missing some cool mechs, this looks like the Ro Go of the DMD era.

Kick ass adult theme.....boring it will not be.

#16 6 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Predator is a work in progress and I highly doubt the finished product will be boring.
http://www.skitbpinball.com/index.html

Fair enough, but I've seen a vid and the recent layout above. Is there a lot more going into it? And no way do I like those 2 center standups!

-1
#17 6 years ago
Quoted from dannunz:

Kick ass adult theme.....boring it will not be.

But themr does not a fun pin make. It needs good pinball shots. The current pf seems... uninspired. Have not played it, admittedly.

#18 6 years ago

LOL, glad you actually got some play time on the pin before calling it boring. I know both people who have played the demo version of Predator and done a lot of research on the project that would totally disagree with you StevenP.

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

Fair enough, but I've seen a vid and the recent layout above. Is there a lot more going into it? And no way do I like those 2 center standups!

They're similarly positioned as BSD's 3-bank. I expect this game will rip through newbies pretty good. mwhahahahaha

-1
#20 6 years ago

Makes me sick people are buying pinballs which only hold their valua because of its rarity.

You should buy a pinball only for fun. Those guys are ruining pinball. If one of these is great, then they should make more of them, if licenses make it possible.

Easy money for the producers and more people get to play a great pin. Those few moneyhunters, go get a job that earns better and leave pinball fo people that like to play instead of earn money on it.

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Makes me sick people are buying pinballs which only hold their valua because of its rarity.
You should buy a pinball only for fun. Those guys are ruining pinball. If one of these is great, then they should make more of them, if licenses make it possible.
Easy money for the producers and more people get to play a great pin. Those few moneyhunters, go get a job that earns better and leave pinball fo people that like to play instead of earn money on it.

I was going to reply to this in material, but then, quite suddenly, I came to my senses.

10
#22 6 years ago

I have tried to reply a few times also, but kept editing myself so much I just gave up. Oh well, back to screwing over all of pinball because I want a cool rare pin in my tiny personal collection, that I dont intent to ever sell (so value doesnt really matter) but can guarantee it will get the heck played out of it. (insert evil laugh here.)

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Makes me sick people are buying pinballs which only hold their valua because of its rarity.
You should buy a pinball only for fun. Those guys are ruining pinball. If one of these is great, then they should make more of them, if licenses make it possible.
Easy money for the producers and more people get to play a great pin. Those few moneyhunters, go get a job that earns better and leave pinball fo people that like to play instead of earn money on it.

Hopefully the game doesn't hold it's value *only* because of its rarity. Hopefully it's a great game. If it's not a great game, people won't buy the next one, which may in fact be produced in unlimited numbers. If they don't produce a solid game, it's game over for them.

-2
#24 6 years ago

I hope its great. But when you buy one of these, only because its 250 run, hoping the valua stays high, your nothing but a selfish guy, or.... You buy to sell.

Pick the one which fits you.

14
#25 6 years ago

If you put down the money to buy one then you have every right to play the hell out of it and/or sell it for a profit. Those that are in on a companies first pin are taking a risk and hoping that the pin rocks and of course you want the price to hold or rise. Not sure why anyone would have a problem with that.

#26 6 years ago

I joined the Predator Posse not because of the Pin's rarity. I signed up because:
- I find the project interesting and the theme appeals to me.
- I love the communication between the fans and the designers. As if as we were belonging to a community. This is a great base to improve games before final release and even once released.
- The price and the paiement schedule are reasonable.

Having said that, putting an upper limit on the production does make sense to me. Not only because, yes, I confess, I like belonging to an "exclusive" club, in which membership is not dictated by highest income but by Faith... Also as it is Skit-B's first pin, they probably put an upper limit to what they can achieve in term of production. Scaling up again one order of magnitude to reach JJP's expected production is obviously not easy.

-5
#27 6 years ago

I dont have a mayor problem with that, although i think pinball prices are so high cause, this is one of the reasons.

But i have a problem with people that have problems with if this machine will be great, and they can make another run on it, some say that they would cancel immediatally.

I just dont understand why would you even care if they would produce another few hundred, if your not planning to sell.

Only selfishness can be a reason.

And why would anybody who says he will never sell his pin even care about the valua of that pin?

Why even bring valua up as a reason to buy a pin when you will never sell. It just makes zero sense.

#29 6 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

It just makes zero sense.

Neither are you in this thread.

#30 6 years ago

If originally not announced to be a set number produced then I see no problem with it.
If announced as a limited addition and then change the number mid game is just bad business. IMO

As for the game the two center targets were a turnoff to me as well but did not stop me from signing up. Adult themed pins can be really fun. Hunt mode was the clincher for me. UV paint and regular on PF just seems cool all by itself.

#31 6 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

I dont have a mayor problem with that, although i think pinball prices are so high cause, this is one of the reasons.
But i have a problem with people that have problems with if this machine will be great, and they can make another run on it, some say that they would cancel immediatally.
I just dont understand why would you even care if they would produce another few hundred, if your not planning to sell.
Only selfishness can be a reason.
And why would anybody who says he will never sell his pin even care about the valua of that pin?
Why even bring valua up as a reason to buy a pin when you will never sell. It just makes zero sense.

I have a painting that I made, its hanging on my wall. I could sell the painting to someone, who would likely display it for his/her friends and family. Would the buyer deserve ridicule from you? My point being, who cares what motivates people to make buying decisions, its their money.

#32 6 years ago

Okay ignore button.

#33 6 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Only selfishness can be a reason.

Selfish is you wanting other people to take the initial risk. Later on, you can come in and scoop up the second helpings. LAME. If you want a chance at a limited game, then put your money where your mouth is.

#34 6 years ago

I signed up for a Predator because it is one of my favorite movies.
#34

15
#35 6 years ago

Blondetall's top 10 reasons for buying a Predator pinball:

10. I like pinball, pinball is cool.

9. I like Predator, Predator is cool.

8. I like the idea of a smaller company who is actually catering to the wants/needs of the players. (Also, they are putting up with our pony silliness, and that's cool too.)

7. Achievements! Husband is a gamer, and this (to my knowledge) is the first pinball with PS3/XBox-esque achievements. That way he can keep track of how badly I'm kicking his butt or vice versa.

6. I am one of 250 people taking the initial risk in a brand new company. I'm not new to pinball but am new to actually owning them, and to me it is an adventure. I will proudly point to my machine and say "I got one of the first."

5. Being one of the first 250, I am taking a risk. If the machine never gets made, sucks, etc, then I've wasted my money and/or time spent waiting on this machine when I could have been buying other titles and playing them in the meantime. For now, there's no real option of buying another machine because I'm saving up for Predator.

4. Even if I wanted to buy other machines, I'm in a pinball desert. I could take that same $5000 and go to the local pin shop and get (I'm not kidding here) a Williams High Speed 2 ($4195 plus tax) or 5/8ths of a POTC ($7995 plus tax.) There is only one Pinsider close to me, and my parents have already bought most of his collection when he sold anything. I work 2 jobs and can't drop everything to chase CL ads when the local retailers are already circling them, and anything I get I have to ship in. I've already been laughed at for paying what I did for my first pin, JP, but at the time eBay and shipping were my only option. I'd like to not be screwed for once, and a $5000 NIB rare machine sounds pretty darn good to me.

3. Yes, I want a rare machine. I haven't been buying machines forever to have a collection where I have equity built up so that I can sell one to fund others, or swap machines. I personally have 2, and I paid a premium for them because I got them in the last year. I will never have the collection that others have, but at least I can have a rare one that they don't have.

2. Yes, if they were to make as many Predators as they could sell, I would drop my pre-order right now. You know why? Because then I could buy something else, play it for awhile, wait to see how Predator ranked or was received, and get one eventually/later. Not because I wouldn't want the machine, but there's absolutely no incentive to get one now if I can always pick one up later. I'd love a WOZ too, but since JJP is dead set on it being the greatest pin ever and making a literal ton of them, I can wait. If WOZ was limited to 250 and Predator was being mass produced, I'm be standing in the other line right now. Doesn't mean that I don't want both. But I have something called a degree in business that says there's this thing called supply and demand, and I'd like to be on the right side of it.

1. I am female. I am at times irrational, selfish, and an enigma. I don't shop for girly things, I don't do pedi/manicures, and I don't collect purses or shoes. I hate paying high prices, yet I like nice things. I analyse everything that I buy to make sure it is the best deal. I drive my BMW roadster to the local grocery store then use coupons on groceries to maximize my savings. I work 2 jobs. When I truly want something, I get it. Also, my maiden name is Jones, and I really do like it when people try to "keep up" and then whine when they can't.

#36 6 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

1. I am female. I am at times irrational, selfish, and an enigma. I don't shop for girly things, I don't do pedi/manicures, and I don't collect purses or shoes. I hate paying high prices, yet I like nice things. I analyse everything that I buy to make sure it is the best deal. I drive my BMW roadster to the local grocery store then use coupons on groceries to maximize my savings. I work 2 jobs. When I truly want something, I get it. Also, my maiden name is Jones, and I really do like it when people try to "keep up" and then whine when they can't.

Gotta love it!

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

Blondetall's top 10 reasons for buying a Predator pinball:

Well put Blondie, well put! Couldn't have said it any better.

13
#38 6 years ago

Well our concept was making a small run of games, truly limited. like orange county choppers. not a manufacturing plant with deadlines deciding design. If we change something (ie: redraw art) and it takes another month, then that is what is **best** for the game. As these games will be here 25 years from now. Price, quality, speed...pick any 2?

Also we know all our customers by name and not just serial numbers. we care about their input, ideas and suggestions and frustrations. it's not about production numbers (or money) it's about making amazing pinball loading with inventive features....as the **standard** game. The UE or Ultimate Edition. So we do not make an LE with a skimped-out low cost model, but just **one** design (One Ring to Rule Them All) with as much crap as we can fit in (afford).

This is how I was taught how to design games at WMS and the only way I really want to work. I think it makes the best pinball for my fans and the community. Jpop

#39 6 years ago
Quoted from jpop:

Also we know all our customers by name and not just serial numbers. we care about their input, ideas and suggestions and frustrations. it's not about production numbers (or money) it's about making amazing pinball loading with inventive features....as the **standard** game. The UE or Ultimate Edition. So we do not make an LE with a skimped-out low cost model, but just **one** design (One Ring to Rule Them All) with as much crap as we can fit in (afford).

This is how I was taught how to design games at WMS and the only way I really want to work. I think it makes the best pinball for my fans and the community. Jpop

Well said....amen brotha!

#40 6 years ago

JPop- I totally would be in your line too if I could afford it, but then I'd have to get a 3rd job.

#41 6 years ago

we have a payment plan and are flexible! I wish the games were lower cost, we are looking at this for the future. But people want "extras" and "quality". we use very "little" china-made stuff also, all sourced and built in the USA like 90%. so it's gonna' be more money. I work 7 days a week, join the club! Jpop

#42 6 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Makes me sick people are buying pinballs which only hold their valua because of its rarity.

You should buy a pinball only for fun. Those guys are ruining pinball. If one of these is great, then they should make more of them, if licenses make it possible.

Easy money for the producers and more people get to play a great pin. Those few moneyhunters, go get a job that earns better and leave pinball fo people that like to play instead of earn money on it.

You mad, bro? Is it because you didn't get in?

#43 6 years ago

I am purchasing for a lot of the same reasons listed above, but my primary reason is due to Predator being the first rated R movie I saw with my father...that holds a certain sentimental value to me and is what really pushed me over the edge to buy prior to playing (which I've never done before - and, frankly, it is a bit scary as gameplay / fun is what primarily fuels my purchases).

I also really respect what the fellas at Skit-B are doing...I'm actually kind of jealous of those guys to be honest. Working almost literally out of their garages and having a damn good time building something they are extremely passionate about. (Don't get me wrong - I am sure there is a lot of BS that they have to deal with too. )

Oh and the fact that it is rare, well, that doesn't hurt either.

#44 6 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

7. Achievements! Husband is a gamer, and this (to my knowledge) is the first pinball with PS3/XBox-esque achievements. That way he can keep track of how badly I'm kicking his butt or vice versa.

This is awesome in so many different ways!

#45 6 years ago

I bought both Predator and BHZA first and foremost because the theme/games appealed to me and I think they're something I'll really enjoy.

Second, their limited nature forced my hand somewhat. If I don't buy now, I'll never have the opportunity to own one (at a price I'm willing to pay).

I totally understand jpop's philosophy though. He doesn't want a factory. He wants to make custom "choppers". that is the perfect analogy.

15
#46 6 years ago

Im buying Predator to leave it in the box and never play it, ever. Then I'm going to show it to homeless people and tell them how much food it could buy. Then I'm going to kick them in the nuts.

I think a lot of other owners are planning on doing this as well.

#47 6 years ago

Adult theme. Adult theme. Adult theme. Both Stern and JJP are currently on a path where we may never see a true adult theme out of either again. I want a machine in my collection where I am not following the yellow brick road or assembling a team of comic book characters.

Predator is a theme long over due and the boys in their garage seem to really be tuned in to what other players like themselves want out games. I think it is going to be a great players pin.

#48 6 years ago

Dang it, sammiesguys, I totally forgot to put that on my list. Yes, I'm pretty sure "leave it in the box and never play it" was in some agreement we all made when we got on the list. Also, if I ever do open it, I'm going to go one step further and deny that homeless guy the box too. Because I'm selfish like that.

#49 6 years ago
Quoted from sammiesguys:

Im buying Predator to leave it in the box and never play it, ever. Then I'm going to show it to homeless people and tell them how much food it could buy. Then I'm going to kick them in the nuts.
I think a lot of other owners are planning on doing this as well.

I was thinking of getting a really minty MM and dressing it up in bondage gear. Then do a video of me in a gimp suit waving a blow torch in front of it. Then have a girl with long fingernails, a huge belt buckle, chrome bracelets, rings on every finger; start a four player game, play a couple balls, slap the lockdown bar and the coin door a bunch of times, and then leave all the rest un-played. Then have a little kid put a slice of pizza and soda on the glass and flipper chimp it for a few minutes. Finally, take it outside and leave it in the backyard while grey clouds are gathering and lightning is going off in the distance. The whole family piles into the car and goes off to play video games.

I bet some sickos would really get off on that.

#50 6 years ago

I have a strong feeling you guys dont agree with me. Fair enough, thats what this forum is all about.

Discuss different opinions. You can think of me as an idiot, or dumb, or you can just disagree. But thats just how i feel, and i know i am not alone.

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