(Topic ID: 51207)

A possible LE solution


By bigdaddy07

6 years ago



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  • 90 posts
  • 36 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by heckheck
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    There are 90 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 6 years ago
    Quoted from blondetall:

    Cute pup Rarehero!
    Statsdoc- love your Avatar pic.

    Thanks. You are the first to ever notice it. I just noticed that you are in TN.

    #52 6 years ago
    Quoted from bigdaddy07:

    No. I mean a super addition. One that has all the extra's but not limited to a small run. That was the point of my post.

    I guess I'm confused. Are you saying two 100% identical games, but one is limited and the other is not?

    #53 6 years ago
    Quoted from blondetall:

    Ok, here's a little story about puppies and human nature.
    A test was done by dog rescue groups to see how to better adopt out black dogs/puppies, since they are for some reason overlooked and adopted out less at shelters. They took a set of 8 Labrador puppies out in public, 4 black and 4 brown/chocolate. All the same breed/size/gender, just the color was different. Then they'd show only 5 puppies at a time to people, and ask them which dog they preferred or would want to adopt. The test was that when they showed the 5 puppies, they would show either 1 black and 4 brown, or they'd show 4 black and 1 brown. Over 90% of the time, people picked the color that only 1 was available. It didn't matter if the dog was brown or black, it mattered that it was different and therefore perceived to be the most rare. I'm sure some people had an actual puppy color preference, as do some people who want the LE just for the art package, but most people wanted the 'limited' one. (This comes in handy with dog rescue by the way. If you have a black dog that desperately needs a home, be sure it is the only black dog available for adoption that day and surround it with brown dogs. Instant "limited edition" dog.)
    I guarantee you that I could take 4 premium and 4 LE (without plaques or numbers obvious) pinball machines out in the general public and run the same test, and whichever machine was different would be picked the most. Probably not 100%, because again some people do have a distinct preference about artwork, but with the same gameplay available on both machines, whichever one is seen as the most rare is always going to be in more demand. When you do in fact label it as "limited edition" and tell the exact number made, this just upps the desire. Basic marketing 101. Stern knows this and uses it to create instant demand before the machine is even out, and when the limited editions are all sold out, then people have to 'settle' for the premium. Sadly, this is also why there are so many flippers, because they understand supply/demand as well.
    I honestly would love to see a charity auction with a "super duper extra special limited edition" machine that had the same gameplay but a different art package, with only 1 made. Huge plaque on the back that said "1 of 1" on it. Think of the bragging rights someone could have for that, and all the money that could be raised for charity because you know some people would spend a fortune just to add it to their collection.

    GREAT POST.

    This same scenario could be seen at the tournament at Pin a Go Go this past weekend. There were nine games in the tournament area. On the other side of the guard ropes there were at least 40 games, mostly DMDs, including a few premiums.

    Several people stared and stared at the tournament games. They asked me over and over if they could play "just once". Like there was something magical or special about those games, merely because they weren't allowed to play them (unless they entered the tournament).

    #54 6 years ago
    Quoted from statsdoc:

    Here's the puppy we got a couple months ago.

    you got a Wookie??

    #55 6 years ago
    Quoted from bigdaddy07:

    I guess I'm driving this from the recent MOPLE/METLE experience. In this case it was more than the plaque. It was the cabinet art/backglass/trim that made a decent esthetic difference. The same could be said of BIBLE. Unfortunately, if you want those you’re paying 9-10k for them now or you have to pre-pre-order moving forward. It would be nice to have the option to pay MSRP vs markup for those. But again, I'm coming from a standpoint of a player/collector vs investor. I know there is a growing investor base in this hobby that will wholefully disagree with me. I'm not a big fan of gambling, I just want to have my choice, and that chance to make a sound decision, without getting raped.

    I agree with this completely. This is exactly where I fit in... I am a huge Metallica fan, have been for over 25 years, and puppets is my favorite album. I love the look of the LE 10x better than the other versions, and since I have only a small space for games and they are highly visible in my gameroom/theater room, the cab art and backglass DOES matter to me. I had an LE ordered first thing the day the pics were released (I didn't want to order before seeing the art), and my distributor cut me a week later when he got cut by stern. Now I'm SOL. I don't care about the "limited" factor, I don't care about the signature or bragging rights or any of that, and the game would not have left my collection until I was 6 feet under, so I don't care about the resale/investment/whatever. The aesthetics are important to some of us, but now I'm missing out on the one I like best due to investors/hoarders/flippers/etc. who don't give a damn about the theme and that pisses me off. I will likely 'settle' for a premium, and I will love playing the hell out of it I'm sure, but every time I look at it across the room I know I'm gonna think, "Damn, I really wish I could have gotten the one I originally ordered"... and that sucks.

    #56 6 years ago

    2900km and 12000CAN and you can buy mine Anidor, or anyone else for that matter

    I'm also a huge Metallica fan and love the LE artwork and bought it first chance I could. I did not buy it to flip, but everything is for sale for the right price...

    #57 6 years ago
    Quoted from tomdotcom:

    2900km and 12000CAN and you can buy mine Anidor

    No thanks. Can't afford the jacked up "current market" prices on these, and even if I could, I don't think I would do it just on principle. I had agreed to buy it at what I felt was a fair price, had sent in my check, and got cut because Stern 'adjusted' their distributors' orders due to the hysteria and I didn't pre-pre order it before the details were released, since as I said I wanted to be sure to order the one that looked best to me. If I liked the pro or premium art better than the LE, then that's what I would have ordered on day 1. For me it's a piece of furniture in a finished gameroom, not just a box in the corner of a dusty basement.

    Now if anyone wants to do a real fan a solid and sell me one at the actual retail price or close to it, then that I would absolutely do. Though for some reason I don't see that happening...

    #58 6 years ago

    I actually want mine, so it's not for sale, unless someone comes and gives me 12kCAN, then it's for sale. Otherwise it will be opened 30 seconds after I get it

    #59 6 years ago
    Quoted from tomdotcom:

    I actually want mine, so it's not for sale, unless someone comes and gives me 12kCAN, then it's for sale. Otherwise it will be opened 30 seconds after I get it

    That was my plan as well...

    #60 6 years ago

    You will forget about the 12k in no time, come on up, make a vacation out of it. BC is gorgeous

    #61 6 years ago
    Quoted from calvin12:

    you got a Wookie??

    LOL It does have that look, doesn't it? I call it a "Muppet dog".

    #62 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    As long as the premiums offer the same features as the LEs, I don't mind that the LEs are, well, limited. You can get the same game with the premium model at a lower cost. Sure, it's lacking a plaque, but you don't play the plaque.
    If they ever start leaving any features out of the premium models that the LEs have, then it's time to really complain.

    Couldn't agree more.

    Quoted from scooter:

    Exactly right,I like it the way it is when they add the premium which they should do for all games.

    I think Stern is doing pretty good with the current LE/Premium model. They didn't have a Premium for X-Men, and that actually turned out to be an ok decision. Avengers has a Premium model, but they won't be selling many of those. Stern has sold a ton of AC/DC Premiums, and they are giving us TWO Premium models for Metallica to choose from.

    #63 6 years ago

    Anidor i got bumped just like you. i got a really good price on the premium and have no le regrets.

    i have since ordered acdc premium and will only order premiums in the future. no interest in the le machines for me.

    i would feel like a real sucker paying a huge mark up for an le in the secondary market, it will never happen.

    i said it before...stern please sell the new star trek le at 9000$ and reduce the cost of the premium and pro by 2%.

    #64 6 years ago

    The LE is evidently the secure sales and profit that Stern can bank on.The Collectors and Flippers grab them up, and everyone else gets the choice of a Premium or Pro model which, of course, does not usually have anywhere near the re-sale value of of the LE.Ever seen a Flipper trying to re-sell an AC/DC Premium at a ridiculous amount? No, because they would be ignored and scoffed at more than usual.
    Rumour has it that Stern is already looking to change the model designations.We shall see......

    #65 6 years ago
    Quoted from vex:

    ...i would feel like a real sucker paying a huge mark up for an le in the secondary market, it will never happen.

    I agree vex, I won't pay the inflated prices either. Like I said, I'm sure I'll end up with the premium, and I'll play the heck out of it and love every minute of it, but it just irks me that I'm missing out on (IMHO) the best looking one of the lot due to the hysteria over the precious LE designation...

    #66 6 years ago
    Quoted from vex:

    i said it before...stern please sell the new Star Trek le at 9000$ and reduce the cost of the premium and pro by 2%.</blockquote

    This is an idea I can get behind. But lets start out at 5 and goto 2 if we have to

    #67 6 years ago

    I think I figured it out now. Just block out (in my mind) the fact that there is an LE and focus only on Premiums and Pros. Makes the whole process simple and more pleasant. You just have to mentally convince yourself that the LE is a hoax and that the premium is the well..premium model. Honestly I didn't really care about the whole LE thing until ST but, in this case I had long planned on ponying up for the best one since it would be my first and maybe only NIB and I love SciFi. I'm already getting over it.

    #68 6 years ago

    Personally i think the only issue with what happened with the metallica LE was that the system and market have changed and new practices need to be implemented by distributors. It sucks for the people that missed out but a LE is meant to be LIMITED.
    I can state right now that i myself will NEVER buy a limited edition as I don't get into that whole collectible side of it I just want to play and a premium will do that with the same features.
    In the past the limited really just meant you were paying more as the demand wasn't high enough to make it actually limited but now it means something like it does in other hobbies.
    If something is limited by definition people should want it but not everyone should be able to get it. That's the whole point of making something limited and ensuring in 10 years time it's sought after still. Yeah it sucks when we're talking about pinball machines that may have better art work, but that's the point of it.

    #69 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinmanguy:

    Personally i think the only issue with what happened with the metallica LE was that the system and market have changed and new practices need to be implemented by distributors.

    You mean like not hoarding and flipping? Not sure how that gets implemented unless they cut out ALL of the little guys and go to just a few distributors they know they can control.

    It sucks for the people that missed out but a LE is meant to be LIMITED.
    I can state right now that i myself will NEVER buy a limited edition as I don't get into that whole collectible side of it I just want to play and a premium will do that with the same features.

    So if you're never going to get one, you don't get the art argument, and you only want a premium, why do you care so much that the LE be so strictly limited?

    If something is limited by definition people should want it but not everyone should be able to get it. That's the whole point of making something limited and ensuring in 10 years time it's sought after still. Yeah it sucks when we're talking about pinball machines that may have better art work, but that's the point of it.

    This makes no sense to me. Why should the point of it be so that people can't get the pin they want, with the "best of concept" art package today from the seller who can meet the demand? Is there some law of nature or rule of hobbies that says a company like Stern serving a hobbyist market must turn out many more copies of the model with mediocre art work, because that is "just how it should be", and deny paying customers lined up at preorder time with cash in hand? This is imposed scarcity, not anything to do with actual cost to create the product (as in a high end luxury vehicle, or hand made piece of art). It's completely artificial.

    Over manipulating their market may undo more sales than it creates for Stern. Some people who miss out on an LE that they really thought they wanted say they will just "live with the premium". Some others will be royally pissed and never want to buy another NIB Stern again, instead finding it just as easy to buy something else (and there is lots of competition coming for those hobby dollars, not just JJP, but all the boutique manufacturers, plus all the old stock of pins out there).

    #70 6 years ago
    Quoted from heckheck:

    You mean like not hoarding and flipping? Not sure how that gets implemented unless they cut out ALL of the little guys and go to just a few distributors they know they can control.

    So if you're never going to get one, you don't get the art argument, and you only want a premium, why do you care so much that the LE be so strictly limited?

    This makes no sense to me. Why should the point of it be so that people can't get the pin they want, with the "best of concept" art package today from the seller who can meet the demand? Is there some law of nature or rule of hobbies that says a company like Stern serving a hobbyist market must turn out many more copies of the model with mediocre art work, because that is "just how it should be", and deny paying customers lined up at preorder time with cash in hand? This is imposed scarcity, not anything to do with actual cost to create the product (as in a high end luxury vehicle, or hand made piece of art). It's completely artificial.
    Over manipulating their market may undo more sales than it creates for Stern. Some people who miss out on an LE that they really thought they wanted say they will just "live with the premium". Some others will be royally pissed and never want to buy another NIB Stern again, instead finding it just as easy to buy something else (and there is lots of competition coming for those hobby dollars, not just JJP, but all the boutique manufacturers, plus all the old stock of pins out there).

    I get the artwork argument, and personally I think an LE shouldn't have completely different artwork to a premium but should be distinguished in other ways like the plaque, different trim, power coated, maybe upgraded speakers and the like. My point though is that the problem arose out of distributors thinking they were guaranteed more than they took orders for, not pointing blame anywhere as I don't know how the misunderstandings happened but in the future if everyone is clear on how much stock they are getting we shouldn't have people who thought they had orders missing out.
    Yeah limited edition things are a seller created collectible item which I find to be stupid, but the point of them is still that they are being made to be rare and made so that people miss out on them and that's what people are paying for.

    #71 6 years ago
    Quoted from tomdotcom:

    I did not buy it to flip, but everything is for sale for the right price...

    No truer logic has ever been said.

    As for LE's. I don't care if my TF is an LE or not. Don't care if AC/DC is premium or not. Plays the same regardless. That's all I care about. I do like having my TF all one color tho. Would I pay extra for it. No. Unless you only own one game, and it's the showcase of your living room. who really sees the cabinet anyway?

    #72 6 years ago
    Quoted from statsdoc:

    Here's the puppy we got a couple months ago.

    Not a puppy, but here is the dog my wife just rescued. Previous owners poured bleach in his eyes and many other terrible things. He is still as nice as can be!

    On topic: I agree with Neo on this one. Chato.jpg

    #73 6 years ago

    Are you guys calling it Limited Addition on purpose? If so, that's funny. If not, I don't get it

    #74 6 years ago

    Do a search on JJP WoZ number of LE's and see how that turned out.

    Even better...do a search on JJP and the number of Hobbit LE's and see how that was taken.

    LE is limited, not sell a sh!tload to appease more people. Stern listened to everyone's whining and made a premium... Has the exact same features but different artwork and trim. Want the LE still?....pay the price, 'cause its LIMITED.

    #75 6 years ago
    Quoted from Max_Badazz:

    Do a search on JJP WoZ number of LE's and see how that turned out.

    It turned out fine, they sold 1000, with plenty of time for people to jump on the train, people are still clamouring to get one, but at least they had a decent chance. They are selling more regular ones too. Didn't hurt their business.

    Even better...do a search on JJP and the number of Hobbit LE's and see how that was taken.

    Jack upped the number to 1500. Even more opportunity for people to get the game they want, on both sides of the Atlantic. From what I understand, these are pretty much about to sell out, so running 1500 LEs didn't hurt the business again.

    LE is limited, not sell a sh!tload to appease more people.

    Nothing wrong with doing this. It may piss you off, but Stern doesn't need to please you any more than they need to please me. If they up the LE run a couple hundred to feed a few more prebuyers on popular titles, that would be perfectly acceptable business practice. It's their decision, there's money on the table for them, I suggest they grab it! Better in their coffers than letting the flippers have it.

    #76 6 years ago

    >>It turned out fine, they sold 1000

    I'm not talking about sales, I'm talking about the bitchfest that happened here on Pinside about how WoZ LE is a game that has 1000 copies floating around and blah blah blah complain complain. Now multiply the anger by 2 and you get more people angry with the 1500+ Hobbit "LE's" blah blah blah complain complain. There was a lot....and I mean A LOT of grumbling about this discussion, so I will not beat the dead horse again.

    >> It may piss you off, but Stern doesn't need to please you any more than they need to please me.

    Exactly, so why change? Why have this thread discussion? Stern is doing fine as is (which has been said already). Either pay a hefty premium for a small number of LE's or be happy with a premium. They listened and created a model that has all of the features but not a LE art package with a run as needed total.

    Like a fine alcoholic drink, do you want the bar to water it down so they can serve more people (and have those people not fully enjoy it), or serve less people and give them the correct amount of booze? Maybe not the best comparison, but you can get my point.

    >> Better in their coffers than letting the flippers have it.

    Why can't the flippers buy more? If they make more, flippers will buy more. No change in resale value. Now what happens if the game is a flop (yes Stern makes flops)? Resellers have a ton of LE's that won't sell. Stern sold theirs, they get their money, but piss off people stuck with the high price no-longer-LE's labeled as LE's. Stern keeps the number lower, and they are covered

    >>Jack upped the number to 1500. Even more opportunity for people to get the game they want, on both sides of the Atlantic. From what I understand, these are pretty much about to sell out, so running 1500 LEs didn't hurt the business again.

    Yes, Jack sold out the LE's......buy now at X price or pay the same or more for a regular later (all presale timeframe, not later as in a year later after release on the 3rd run or something). I haven't seen Stern come out and say that. Kind of like blackmail if you ask me .......which for the record I have no problem with the way he sells them, but its not a good comparison for saying Stern should change. Again, another dead horse beating topic

    #77 6 years ago
    Quoted from Max_Badazz:

    >>It turned out fine, they sold 1000
    I'm not talking about sales, I'm talking about the bitchfest that happened here on Pinside about how WoZ LE is a game that has 1000 copies floating around and blah blah blah complain complain. Now multiply the anger by 2 and you get more people angry with the 1500+ Hobbit "LE's" blah blah blah complain complain. There was a lot....and I mean A LOT of grumbling about this discussion, so I will not beat the dead horse again.

    Believe it or not, Pinside is like 10% of the pinball universe. The loudest, noisiest, ugliest 10% (give or take RGP, which is a ghost town), but still only a small part, with an ENORMOUSLY overinflated opinion of its collective importance.

    Lots of keyboard commandos. I could care less what righteous indignation bitchfest it starts here if Stern makes more LEs. Stern can make more money, more people can get the pins they want. I hope it happens and I'll be sure to tune in for the elitist moaning if it does.

    #78 6 years ago
    Quoted from heckheck:

    Believe it or not, Pinside is like 10% of the pinball universe. The loudest, noisiest, ugliest 10% (give or take RGP, which is a ghost town), but still only a small part, with an ENORMOUSLY overinflated opinion of its collective importance.
    .

    So what are you, the OP, and this thread doing differently than the other side? Complaining that there's not enough LE's? Again going back to your earlier thread: ".. Stern doesn't need to please you any more than they need to please me..", then why change if some people representing 10% of the pinball universe want more LE's because of flippers, high price, etc etc? Does Stern want to "potentially" make some extra money by watering down the LE's or stay as is and do what they are doing now which seems to be working or people would not start threads like this?

    #79 6 years ago
    Quoted from Max_Badazz:

    Does Stern want to "potentially" make some extra money by watering down the LE's or stay as is and do what they are doing now which seems to be working or people would not start threads like this?

    We'll see what they do. I'm hoping one thing, you obviously the other. Hopefully mine makes more business sense to them. More $$ (not just potential dollars actual ones) usually makes more sense...

    #80 6 years ago
    Quoted from heckheck:

    We'll see what they do. I'm hoping one thing, you obviously the other. Hopefully mine makes more business sense to them. More $$ (not just potential dollars actual ones) usually makes more sense...

    I never said I wanted one side or the other....and they are potential.....any proof that they will/won't make more money? There's more to this equation than "they will make more money if they make more LE's". Don't you or anyone else complaining over the LE's being limited think that maybe.....

    .....just maybe..........

    .....just super maybe they know what they are doing?

    Once again, I don't give a crap about LE's, if I want one, I will buy one, if I don't, I won't. I just find it annoying that everyone here wants to run Stern instead of just accepting how they are right now....which is producing games at levels for everyone.

    And I have the same feelings for the threads on the # of JJP LE's as well...maybe Jack knows what he is doing at his company.

    #81 6 years ago

    Fair points.

    I don't want to run Stern, I just hope they considering what has/is happening in their market, and are further tweaking their formula. Marketing strategies evolve. Companies change them all the time to try to maximize profits. What they are doing is working. Doesn't mean they can't do something else that works even better (for them and the majority of their customers).

    What I do want is an LE (a Star Trek LE specifically) and I don't want to pay the equivalent of a scalper (flipper) to get one, I want to pay Stern. I'm willing to preorder, all I need is for there be enough supply to go around, we'll see.

    #82 6 years ago

    I have an idea how about if you’re not all sugar plum and bubble gum keep your opinions to yourself. Even though this is a discussion forum, we sure don't want anyone coming up with different ideas or opinions, because that may be construed as whining or bitching.

    I'm also sure none of us could ever ever have an idea or thought that Stern values or hasent already thought of and tossed in the trash. So, why are we even posting here? Let's just shoot each other pics of our gamerooms.

    #83 6 years ago
    Quoted from heckheck:

    Fair points.
    I don't want to run Stern, I just hope they considering what has/is happening in their market, and are further tweaking their formula. Marketing strategies evolve. Companies change them all the time to try to maximize profits. What they are doing is working. Doesn't mean they can't do something else that works even better (for them and the majority of their customers).
    What I do want is an LE (a Star Trek LE specifically) and I don't want to pay the equivalent of a scalper (flipper) to get one, I want to pay Stern. I'm willing to preorder, all I need is for there be enough supply to go around, we'll see.

    I'm honestly not disagreeing with you, but trying to stay neutral on my posts..... it's just that there's no way they can make both sides happy (LE is limited and worth a ton OR lots of LE's bringing the price down and the rarity but more get one).

    #84 6 years ago
    Quoted from bigdaddy07:

    because that may be construed as whining or bitching.

    It is:
    ............whahhhh there's no more LE's and the flippers charge too much
    or
    ............whahhhh my LE is no longer super limited and not worth as much because everyone has one

    Since both sides have a point and nothing will help both sides, then why continue to start threads on this stuff. We all get it.

    #85 6 years ago
    Quoted from Max_Badazz:

    Since both sides have a point and nothing will help both sides, then why continue to start threads on this stuff. We all get it.

    This is a discussion forum, that's what we do, discuss things and it may not always be suitable for you. You have the freedom to avoid threads that contains topics that annoy you. That would be much better than vilifying others that have an different point of view that you’re tired of listening to.

    #86 6 years ago
    Quoted from bigdaddy07:

    That would be much better than vilifying others that have an different point of view that you’re tired of listening to.

    Ok, so I voiced my opinion to discuss....what's the issue then?

    I am not starting new topics on this....I am not taking a side. Yes, you can do what you want on a forum. However don't expect everyone to agree/disagree with you. I have no issues if people disagree with me. You should not have an issue with me saying to stop beating dead horses. I can say something like...."Don't post a topic if you don't want to hear all opinions"

    Sorry if you don't like what I said...but I hardly ever comment on hot topics and yours was the one I did

    #87 6 years ago
    Quoted from Max_Badazz:

    Ok, so I voiced my opinion to discuss....what's the issue then?

    LOL...I don't know. I feel like we took a wrong turn somewhere. Anyway..how about that STLE? That suckers gonna be hard core pimp!

    #88 6 years ago
    Quoted from bigdaddy07:

    LOL...I don't know. I feel like we took a wrong turn somewhere. Anyway..how about that STLE? That suckers gonna be hard core pimp!

    No wrong turn.....I never got hot headed. I am just putting a third opinion/side out there. I'm not trying to start a pissing match with anyone

    #89 6 years ago
    Quoted from heckheck:

    What I do want is an LE (a Star Trek LE specifically) and I don't want to pay the equivalent of a scalper (flipper) to get one, I want to pay Stern. I'm willing to preorder, all I need is for there be enough supply to go around, we'll see.

    I truly feel that STLE won't be the mess that METLE was. Metallica sold the game hard to its fans....they wanted it, too - not just pinball collectors. Overseas metal fans wanted it. Even if ST is awesome - it's still a "movie theme" ...as popular as Tron LE got - you could easily get them a few months after it came out for a normal price. Avengers was one of the biggest movies ever, and you can still get LE's. Hardcore Star Trek fans aren't really going to care, IMO....they'd probably rather have a STTNG lol.

    #90 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    I truly feel that STLE won't be the mess that METLE was.

    I hope not. Right now after the MOPLE aftermath rush, the distributors I've talked to won't take more preorders until they hear what Stern has to say. Understandable. We'll see how it unfolds over the next few months.

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    pinballmod
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