(Topic ID: 242433)

A Pecos Puzzler: Diagnosing EM Pin Problems


By Pecos

69 days ago



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  • 153 posts
  • 22 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 day ago by rolf_martin_062
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Step Up Continuous (resized).png
Step Up - Step Down - Reset Stepper (resized).png
Step Up - Step Down Stepper (resized).png
Step Up - Reset Stepper (resized).png
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Sweet Sioux Double Match (resized).jpg
Sweet Sioux Replay Unit coils (resized).jpg
Lamp socket parts without words bottom (resized).jpg
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Horseshoe Wiper Switch (resized).png

There are 153 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 4.
#101 47 days ago

Tilt ring too far forward?

#102 47 days ago

Did you find one of the few games where there was still a tilt ball? I've never bought a game myself where it was still in place.

#103 47 days ago

Hi CaffeineSlug
You are right - my "Big Deal" had a ball in the housing of the "Ball Roll Tilt". There is a nice site - http://www.stevechannel.com/tiltmechanism.htm see the last picture - when I lifted the front of the pin i lifted so much that the ball did roll "rightbound in the picture". The "stevechannel-text" mentiones "... ending the game in play". In Big Deal it is not like a slam tilt ending a game - in Big Deal it is just like a pendulum tilt tilting.

Hi zacaj
I guess Your "Tilt ring" means the brass plate around the pendulum tilt. Yes Your right - it also could be Tilt ring / brass plate. Here http://www.stevechannel.com/tiltmechanism.htm , second picture we see a "good centered" pendulum tilt --- and we also see the screws to loosen so the brass plate can be moved. Greetings Rolf

#104 46 days ago

Hi
see the JPG - I show it in the Lights section --- my question is "is this stepping 60 - 10 - 70 - 30 - 80 - 20 - 50 - 90 - 40 - 00" the reason for "we say the number match comes random" --- or then: What is the most-important cause for "randomness" - the 2nd-most-important - 3rd-most-important cause ? Greetings Rolf

0Sp-Mi-Work-35 (resized).jpg
#105 46 days ago

"Now, for the next, obvious, questions. It is important to know the answers to these questions when debugging Score Reel problems!

What happens when:

Question 1: Switch 'A' is always open?
Question 2: Switch 'A' is always closed?
Question 3: Switch 'B' is always open?
Question 4: Switch 'B' is always closed?
Question 5: Switch 'C' is always open?
Question 6: Switch 'C' is always closed?"

Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Answer #1 parallel switch with the other score reels. Always open the circuit will think that the score reel is on zero, no matter what position it’s on.

You would think, but my testing shows differently. Please see the table, below. If you see a number other than '0', look for an ALWAYS OPEN 'A' Switch.

Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Answer #2 always closed the circuit will think that there’s a score reel that needs resetting yet, so the reset relay stays pulled in and the score motor continues running.

Yes, almost perfect! OXO will never stop trying to reset the 1000 Point Score Reel, but the Reset Relays pulse, not stay pulled in. This is one of the most frustrating problems because the Score Motor will NEVER stop running. On OXO both of the Reset Relays will ALWAYS be pulsing trying to reset the 1000 Point Score Reel to '0' and the Score Reel will continue to advance to and past '0.' Worse yet, on OXO, the 110 Volt Relay Bank Reset Solenoid is constantly pulsed! Not good. Not good at all. The first place you should look when you have a Runaway Score Motor is the 'A' Switch on the Score Reel that is not set at '0.'

Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Answer #3 score reel reset switch
Always open , the score reel will never reset on #s 1-9.

Yes! But there is more - see table. If the 1000 Point Score Reel NEVER resets to '0' at the start of a new game, check Switch 'B' for an always open state.

Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Answer #4 always closed, the score reel will always get pulses to try to find zero position.

Yes! If the 1000 Point Score Reel ALWAYS advances, even at position "0' at the start of a new game, check Switch 'B' for an always closed state. 'Will It Go Round in Circles?'

Yes! The 1000 Point Score Reel will just go round and round and round until you properly adjust Switch 'B.'

Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Answer #5 carryover switch

Always open carryover from 9-10 points on the score reels will never happen.

Yes! If the 10,000 Point Score Reel NEVER advances when the 1000 Point Score Reel advances from '9' to '10', an always open Switch 'C' is the first place you should look.

Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Answer #6 always closed
Carryover will always happen no matter what position the score reel is at.
Example: instead of scoring 1 point you would score 11.

Yes! Yes! If the 10,000 Point Score Reel ALWAYS advances EVERY TIME the 1000 Point Score Reel advances one position, you should first look at Switch 'C' to see if it is always closed.

OXO Score Reel Switch States (resized).png

This table details OXO's Score Reel stuck switch states. Other pins from this era may be similar. Gottlieb pins prior to the mid 70's will likely behave differently.

It amazed me, still does, how much more complex these stuck switch states are than I thought and how they affect the game start reset process.

I tried to test carefully, but I could have gotten something wrong. Special Points for finding an error!!

#106 44 days ago
Quoted from TopMoose:

I had some time to investigate (reminder: bulb scoring, 1000's step unit should advance to 0 at the start of the game but doesn't) and I have some questions about what I found:
1. The credit step unit advance coil doesn't have an EOS switch, so the coil stays in (and buzzes loudly) when I push in the coin unit (the schematic calls it "shuffle"). Is this supposed to happen?
2. When I shuffle, the score motor doesn't move. Should it?
3. Looking at the 1000's step unit, it doesn't seem to have a cam or switch or any way to stop the coil from firing once it reaches the 0 position.
4. The EOS switch on the 10,000 step unit has a loose wire but there's no indication of where it should connect. Could this be part of the issue?
Again, the 10,000 unit is working correctly. I guess what it boils down to is, how should the system work? What should be happening?

Checking back in with some new info about my reset issues. I've been investigating my Reset relay and here's what I've found:

1. There are four switches in the reset relay and no coil - it's activated only by pushing in the coin chute (the schematic calls it "shuffle"). I've traced the first wire from the reset relay through the Jones plug and directly to the 10,000 Point Reset coil. It is linked directly to the credit unit (RP Reset), just as indicated in the schematic below. Neither unit has an EOS switch, so what's supposed to make the coils stop firing when I hold in the coin chute? Right now when I push in the coin chute and the 10,000 unit resets like it should and the credit unit advances one credit but the coils stay energized until I release.

COEDshuffle1 (resized).jpg

2. On this same part of the schematic, you can see a Reset switch attached to the Meter relay (marked OWI - open when in). This is part of a make-or-break switch.

3. I've also traced one of the Reset relay wires to the 10-50 Reset relay. There's a game feature where the player can build up a score from 10 to 50K and then collect with certain targets. There's a stepper unit that controls this. If the Reset relay switch is activated while the variable score is set to 20K or higher, the 10-50 Reset relay counts back down to 10K. This feature uses the scoring motor and it works fine.

COEDshuffle3 (resized).jpg

4. Finally, there's a switch on the Reset relay that's connected to the Lock Coil relay. This switch re-sets the lock coil after a tilt.

COEDshuffle2 (resized).jpg

That's all the mentions I can find about the Reset relay and none of them connect directly to the 1000 Point unit. Here's what the schematic says about the 1000 Point relay:

COEDshuffle4 (resized).jpg
COEDshuffle5 (resized).jpg

The 1000 Point relay advances when any of the Advance, Reset or 5000 point bumpers are hit and when the 5000 point holes are triggered. These all work fine. I think the second part shows that the 1000's unit disables when the trip tilt is triggered, so a player can't keep scoring points as the ball rolls down the playfield after a tilt. None of these things are connected to the Reset relay, so how would the 1000's unit reset at the start of a game?

#107 44 days ago

See that reset int relay? It's an intermediate relay. Exhibit used two relays to handle their reset situation. One triggered on the trip bank via shuffle and another in the backbox. The one in the backbox turns the motor on and causes the continuous unit to step until it stops at zero.

#108 44 days ago

This particular game makes it a bit confusing by using the same term for two different things.

There are four green "Advance" bumpers at the top of the playfield that increase the 10-50K value and three red "Reset" bumpers at the bottom that decrease the 10-50K value. The Reset Int relay only controls the Reset bumpers (it adds 1000 points and triggers the 10-50 reset coil, decreasing the value by 10K). There is no Reset relay in the backbox.

#109 44 days ago

What relays are in the backbox? Exhibit used pretty standard setups for their games. Where does the reset int relay live? Can you show me that relay on the schem (and what activates it)?

#110 44 days ago

Here's what we're dealing with inside the backbox and under the playfield. The schematic shows how the Reset Int relay works. Thanks for your help with this.

20190602_003350_resized (resized).jpg
20190602_003417_resized (resized).jpg
COEDshuffle7 (resized).jpg

#111 43 days ago

That's interesting... Odd that they changed the name on this game!

The reset trip that immediately throws is standard. But it should trigger another relay that holds in until the game zeroes. Have you figured out what the motor switches do? One should advance the 1000s. That one should get power from - somewhere - and that is the problem area. Looking at the snippet, the 5000 relay is required for powering the 1000s stepup, since I was wrong about the int relays on this game... Perhaps posting the entire schem would help. Feel free to PM if you'd like.

#112 43 days ago

PM Sent.

There are only three motor switches:

1. The one furthest back is the "pulse" switch, which is connected to the 5K, 5K Hole, 50K and 10-50K relays.
2. The middle one is only open on pulse 5, which I think stops the cycle.
3. The closest one only closes on pulse 4.

20190602_105144_resized (resized).jpg
20190602_105159_resized (resized).jpg

#113 43 days ago

Finishing up our tour through the Score Reels, there is one more important switch that is used on most, but not all Score Reel Units. What is it and what does it do?

#114 43 days ago

The remaining switch is the end of stroke switch (EOS switch).
This is a NC switch that is in the hold circuit to the score reel’s score relay.
When a score relay pulls in, it stays pulled in thru it’s NO hold switch, the score relay pulls in the score reel . Once the score reel pulls all the way in the NC EOS switch opens, releasing the score relay and completing the sequence.
The score reels that don’t have a EOS switch don’t have a score relay to energize them.

#115 43 days ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

The remaining switch is the end of stroke switch (EOS switch).
This is a NC switch that is in the hold circuit to the score reel’s score relay.
When a score relay pulls in, it stays pulled in thru it’s NO hold switch, the score relay pulls in the score reel . Once the score reel pulls all the way in the NC EOS switch opens, releasing the score relay and completing the sequence.
The score reels that don’t have a EOS switch don’t have a score relay to energize them.

Sorry, no, but good information about the EOS switch.

We’ve already covered the EOS switch. There is another switch that we haven’t covered.

#116 43 days ago

Post #104
Random match number
I would say that the manufacturer set up the match # lights this way so players can’t guess what # will come up at the end of the game.
If the match # was sequential a player might be able to guess if the match # will be either a odd or even in respect to playfield alternating lights, thus increasing their odds of matching.
The more free games you give away, the less money the machine makes.
But however you look at it you have a 1 in 10 chance of matching.
So after your game is done and the match # is ready to come on you have to ask yourself a question.
Do I feel lucky well do ya punk?

#117 43 days ago

The only other switch might be the score reel wiping disc switch.
On some gottlieb machine score reels, a switch next to the EOS switch, called an isolation switch is used in the replay scoring circuit.

#118 42 days ago
Quoted from Pecos:

Finishing up our tour through the Score Reels, there is one more important switch that is used on most, but not all Score Reel Units. What is it and what does it do?

Quoted from pinballdaveh:

The remaining switch is the end of stroke switch (EOS switch).
This is a NC switch that is in the hold circuit to the score reel’s score relay.
When a score relay pulls in, it stays pulled in thru it’s NO hold switch, the score relay pulls in the score reel . Once the score reel pulls all the way in the NC EOS switch opens, releasing the score relay and completing the sequence.
The score reels that don’t have a EOS switch don’t have a score relay to energize them.

Quoted from Pecos:

Sorry, no, but good information about the EOS switch.

We’ve already covered the EOS switch. There is another switch that we haven’t covered.

Quoted from pinballdaveh:

The only other switch might be the score reel wiping disc switch.

Yes! Also known as a Horseshoe-Shaped Contact Wiper Switch, or a Contact Ring, or many variations thereof.

Here is another picture of OXO's Player One Score Reel showing the Nylon Ratchet and Cam, top side.

DSCF4304 (resized).JPG

And here is a picture showing the bottom of the Nylon Ratchet and Cam with the Horseshoe Wiper Switch attached.

Horseshoe Wiper Switch (resized).png

Noticing it was dirty, I cleaned the copper traces with Mothers Mag and Aluminum Polish. It does a great job of polishing up the metal! If you look closely, you will see the wear where the copper contact wipe against the copper traces. This OXO has more than 76,000 plays and maybe millions of times that this Racthet and Cam has rotated!

DSCF4294 (resized).JPG

It is rare, but this switch can break. Since it is hidden, you will never notice that it is broken until you realize that certain scoring features no longer work. But what does this Horseshoe Wiper Switch do? When this question is answered, we can determine the symptoms that you will see when the Horseshoe Wiper Switch is broken or maladjusted (also rare).

Quoted from pinballdaveh:

On some gottlieb machine score reels, a switch next to the EOS switch, called an isolation switch is used in the replay scoring circuit.

Being Gottlieb illiterate, I would like to know more about this switch.

#119 42 days ago
Quoted from Pecos:

But what does this Horseshoe Wiper Switch do? When this question is answered, we can determine the symptoms that you will see when the Horseshoe Wiper Switch is broken or maladjusted (also rare).

On the higher score reels it's used for awarding a credit/EB at score threshholds. On the lowest score reel it's used in conjunction with the match unit.

#120 41 days ago
Quoted from Pecos:

As I was thinking about the points of failure on a lamp and lamp socket, I realized that I didn't know the name of all of the parts. I went looking for them and found a few, but not all of them. So, please help me and the pinball world out and name the 'proper' parts of a #44/#47 lamp and 'bayonet' lamp socket.

I guess I'm not going to get any interest in answering this question so will try to do so myself.

Lamp socket parts without words bottom (resized).jpg

Lamp and socket parts without words (resized).jpg

A. Contact - AKA tip, tit, nipple (get your minds out the the gutter, guys!)
B. Bayonet Pins - AKA nubs
C. Glass Pinch - AKA stem
D. Filament
E. Bulb - AKA envelope
F. Base - AKA cap
G. Bracket
H. Barrel - AKA socket
I. Contact
J. Spring
K. Insulator
L. Terminal
M. Insulator
N. Connector AKA tab, lug

One of my pet peeves is when people call these #44 and #47 lamps 'bulbs.' Bulbs are either something you screw into a kitchen lamp socket or the glass 'envelope' of the lamp!

#121 41 days ago

OXO questions
#1 with a 19 relay latch in bank, is that the longest bank of any EM pinball machine?
#2 with that long bank mounted down the middle of the playfield, how would you rate the difficulty of changing lamps on the XO grid?

#122 40 days ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

#1 with a 19 relay latch in bank, is that the longest bank of any EM pinball machine?

The schematic for Gottlieb's Egg Head (another tic tac toe game) shows 23 Bank or trip relays. It's hard to confirm from the ipdb photo: https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=758&picno=15124

#123 39 days ago

Wow great find. That bank looks like an electrical work of art.
The Egg head machine probably has the most coils for a single player machine and OXO has most coils for a four player machine.

3 weeks later
#124 15 days ago

Question on Grand Prix. Out of the blue my game no longer kicks out the ball at the end of ball 2 and at the end of ball 4.

Example, start game.
Plunge ball 1. The bonus counts, and ball kicks to the shooter lane and advances to ball 2.
Plunge ball 2. The ball drains, nothing happens at all. (Note - If I lift the playfield, and manually reset the outhole switch, the bonus counts down and the ball kicks to the shooter lane while advancing to ball 3.)
Plunge ball 3. The bonus counts, and ball kicks to the shooter lane and advances to ball 4.
Plunge ball 4. The ball drains, nothing happens at all. (Note - If I lift the playfield, and manually reset the outhole switch, the bonus counts down and the ball kicks to the shooter lane while advancing to ball 5.)
Plunge ball 5. The bonus counts, and the game ends.

I know very little about EM's, so hopefully this is something simple

#125 14 days ago
Quoted from djreddog:

Question on Grand Prix. Out of the blue my game no longer kicks out the ball at the end of ball 2 and at the end of ball 4.
Example, start game.
Plunge ball 1. The bonus counts, and ball kicks to the shooter lane and advances to ball 2.
Plunge ball 2. The ball drains, nothing happens at all. (Note - If I lift the playfield, and manually reset the outhole switch, the bonus counts down and the ball kicks to the shooter lane while advancing to ball 3.)
Plunge ball 3. The bonus counts, and ball kicks to the shooter lane and advances to ball 4.
Plunge ball 4. The ball drains, nothing happens at all. (Note - If I lift the playfield, and manually reset the outhole switch, the bonus counts down and the ball kicks to the shooter lane while advancing to ball 5.)
Plunge ball 5. The bonus counts, and the game ends.
I know very little about EM's, so hopefully this is something simple

Check the make break on the alternator relay. This determines which side pays off and if it's open on one side it won't start the end of ball countdown. Looks like it's Brown Red on one side, White Brown on the other and Brown Yellow on the other side of the switch

p.s. it's good to be back in this thread

#126 14 days ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

Check the make break on the alternator relay. This determines which side pays off and if it's open on one side it won't start the end of ball countdown. Looks like it's Brown Red on one side, White Brown on the other and Brown Yellow on the other side of the switch
p.s. it's good to be back in this thread

Will do. Also, I learned today through reading other threads that the issue might be with the right bonus unit. The left bonus unit is responsible for balls 1/3/5 and the right bonus unit is responsible for balls 2/4. I have some things to check later this week and I will report back.

#127 14 days ago

This would be a good time to talk about bonus units.

What do bonus units do?

What are the two kinds of bonus units?

Please explain how each type works.

#128 14 days ago
Quoted from Pecos:

This would be a good time to talk about bonus units.
What do bonus units do?
What are the three kinds of bonus units?
Please explain how each type works.

100s, 1000s and 10000s?

#129 14 days ago
Quoted from Pecos:

What are the two kinds of bonus units?

The ones that count down to award the bonus and the ones that can award the bonus while retaining the value?

#130 14 days ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

100s, 1000s and 10000s?

You could probably call these 'types.' But I am thinking about how each works. Each type works differently and has different functionality.

Might as well throw this out there while we are talking about stepper units.

What are the four types of stepper units used in EM pins and what function(s) does/do each type perform? What do I mean by 'functions'? Hint: Two of the four types of stepper units are used to keep track of bonus points.

Explain how each stepper unit type works, mechanically.

#131 14 days ago

Step Up Step Down Stepper: has a coil to allow single increment steps up and another for single steps down. Used for bonus counts and anything where the system needs to perform an action for each

Step Up Reset: steps up like the previous but the other coil lifts the brake off of the gear to allow a full reset in a single action. Used for actions that count up a finite amount of times like a coin or player unit

Continuous: Has a step up coil only. Cannot step down. Used for match units, spinner units.

That's 3, I'm missing the 4th

#132 14 days ago

The 2 types of step units used for bonus are the single step up/ single step reset
The other type of bonus unit uses an additional coil to change the single step reset to a full one pulse resetting.
Another variation of the single step up/ single step reset is the single step up/ full return reset.
Mostly used in ball count units for replay style machines.
The last is the continuous rotation style.
This type only has one coil for advancing rotation, no reset.
Mostly used in 00-90 or match units.

#133 14 days ago

Gottlieb's Sweet Sioux has a stepper with three coils. One to take a step back, one to take a step forward, and a third to step forward 2 steps.
Sweet Sioux Replay Unit coils (resized).jpg
You can barely make out all three coils in the top of the IPDB image: https://ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2475&picno=29390&zoom=1

That's probably not the missing 4th stepper type, but it's unusual nonetheless.

There are also Score Reels and steppers used as Alternators in some games, but they're basically continuous steppers.

/Mark

#134 14 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Gottlieb's Sweet Sioux has a stepper with three coils. One to take a step back, one to take a step forward, and a third to step forward 2 steps.
[quoted image]
You can barely make out all three coils in the top of the IPDB image: https://ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2475&picno=29390&zoom=1
That's probably not the missing 4th stepper type, but it's unusual nonetheless.
There are also Score Reels and steppers used as Alternators in some games, but they're basically continuous steppers.
/Mark

Is this for a double special?

#135 14 days ago

I remember some early machines had a jack for 10 replays for a double match. I’ve been wondering how they got that done.

#136 14 days ago

Yes I believe it's used for a "Double Match", although as far as I can tell you either get one credit per match, or 11 credits (1 plus 10 extra) per match:
Sweet Sioux Double Match (resized).jpg
When enabled, the 5 pulses from the Score Motor 1A switch fire the "Add 2 Replays" solenoid on the Replay Unit which gives you the 10 extra credits.
Thanks to www.inkochnito.nl for the adjustment card.

#137 14 days ago

You guys are good!

Stepper Units are amazing analogue devices!

  • If you are playing ball 2 in an EM, the Stepper Unit is a memory device. It remembers which ball you are on. The computer analogy is non-volatile memory.
  • At the end of ball 2, the Stepper Unit is a processor. It processes the next ball. The computer analogy is a CPU or processor.
  • At the start of a new game, the Stepper Unit repeats the process. The computer analogy is software that loops or repeats part of the code.
  • The four stepper types:

      Step Up / Step Down

    Quoted from Cheddar:

    Step Up Step Down Stepper: has a coil to allow single increment steps up and another for single steps down. Used for bonus counts and anything where the system needs to perform an action for each

    Quoted from pinballdaveh:

    The 2 types of step units used for bonus are the single step up...

      Step Up / Step Down / Reset

    Quoted from pinballdaveh:

    ...single step reset
    The other type of bonus unit uses an additional coil to change the single step reset to a full one pulse resetting.

    Yes! This is the missing fourth choice and is used on Grand Prix!

      Step Up / Reset

    Quoted from Cheddar:

    Step Up Reset: steps up like the previous but the other coil lifts the brake off of the gear to allow a full reset in a single action. Used for actions that count up a finite amount of times like a coin or player unit

    Quoted from pinballdaveh:

    Another variation of the single step up/ single step reset is the single step up/ full return reset.
    Mostly used in ball count units for replay style machines.

      Step Up Continuous

    Quoted from Cheddar:

    Continuous: Has a step up coil only. Cannot step down. Used for match units, spinner units.

    Quoted from pinballdaveh:

    The last is the continuous rotation style.
    This type only has one coil for advancing rotation, no reset.
    Mostly used in 00-90 or match units.

    In summary, the four types of stepper units are:


    • Step Up / Step Down

    - Used primarily for counting up and counting down bonuses. Also used by the Credit Unit to increment and decrement the number of credits.


    • Step Up / Step Down / Reset

    - Used primarily for Bonus Units. In addition to counting up the bonus while the ball is in play and stepping down the bonus, either from on-playfield bonus collect or at when the pinball reaches the Outhole, it can reset the bonus to home, removing any earned bonus. For some games like Fan-Tas-Tic, the bonus can only be collected when the ball is in play. If you don't collect the bonus when the roulette wheel spins, it's No Bonus For YOU!

    It works a little bit differently on Grand Prix. It is one of only a few games with two bonus units. As has already been mentioned, the Collect Bonus when the ball reaches the outhole is for the left bonus on balls 1, 3 and 5. The right bonus is rewarded at the end of balls 2 and 4. But what happens to the other bonus unit? It might have bonus values on it. This is where the reset function comes into play. It is reset to home position and all bonus is lost.

    It is interesting to note that most, but not all bonus ladders start at '1000.' Williams games are notorious for this. Tilt the game and you lose this and any other bonus you have built up.


    • Step Up / Reset

    - Steps up one step at a time. Instead of stepping down, this type of stepper resets the stepper unit to 'home' position. This type of stepper unit is used for ball counts, resets at start of new game, and player units, resets at start of a new ball.


    • Step Up Continuous

    - Steps up one at at time and continues going 'round and 'round like a clock. Used for Match Units and Score Reels.

    Quoted from Cheddar:

    Continuous: ...Used for ...spinner units.

    Yes! Grand Prix has two Spinner Units. The Left/Right Spinner Units goes 'round and 'round until they reach the home position. Then, the Bonus Unit, Left or Right, advances one step.

    Does it go 'round in circles? Yes, it goes 'round in circles but it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere but back to the start!

    Quoted from zacaj:

    The ones that count down to award the bonus and the ones that can award the bonus while retaining the value?

    I'm not sure if this type of bonus unit exists, but it sounds like a cool idea. Why don't you put a patent on it zacaj?

    Quoted from MarkG:

    Gottlieb's Sweet Sioux has a stepper with three coils. One to take a step back, one to take a step forward, and a third to step forward 2 steps.

    Sweet Sioux Replay Unit coils (resized).jpg

    You can barely make out all three coils in the top of the IPDB image: https://ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2475&picno=29390&zoom=1

    That's probably not the missing 4th stepper type, but it's unusual nonetheless.

    There are also Score Reels and steppers used as Alternators in some games, but they're basically continuous steppers.

    /Mark

    That's interesting! Thanks for chiming in on a Gottlieb stepper unit that is different from the typical stepper units.

    Quoted from Cheddar:

    Is this for a double special?

    Quoted from pinballdaveh:

    I remember some early machines had a jack for 10 replays for a double match. I’ve been wondering how they got that done.

    Quoted from MarkG:

    Yes I believe it's used for a "Double Match", although as far as I can tell you either get one credit per match, or 11 credits (1 plus 10 extra) per match:

    I vaguely remember seeing this in my early Williams pins. Ahh, yes, here it is. From IPDB for Stop 'N' Go: "Double match feature can be set for 2, 5 or 10 replays."

    Thanks for bringing up the topic!

#138 14 days ago
Quoted from Pecos:

I'm not sure if this type of bonus unit exists, but it sounds like a cool idea. Why don't you put a patent on it zacaj?

Bally uses them on games with bonus collect (but not reset). Old chicago, bow and arrow, etc.

#139 14 days ago

What type of bonus unit has 2 coils, but it isn’t a step unit. And there isn’t any bonus ladder indicating lamps on the playfield.

#140 13 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

The ones that count down to award the bonus and the ones that can award the bonus while retaining the value?

I was thinking about how this might work. The bonus unit can't step down like the 'typical' bonus units because then it wouldn't remember the bonus points. I have an Old Chicago so I popped the top to see how it worked.

This is a Williams OXO bonus unit:

DSCF4329 (resized).JPG

And this is a Bally Old Chicago bonus unit that remembers:

DSCF4324 (resized).JPG

Look at all of those wires! I watched as the bonus was given and found that it was the score motor that counted out the bonus. First, it counted out the 1-5 bonus points, then the counting stopped, and then the 6-10 bonus points were awarded. This makes sense since the score motor can pulse only 5 at a time. This stepper unit is a Step Up/Step Down type, but it only steps down only at the end of the ball, and it doesn't step at all when the on-playfield bonus is collected! It's quite clever, actually. This is an entirely different way of awarding bonus points and one that I wasn't aware. I didn't dig into it any further but this must be how it is able to remember how many bonus points to give more than one time during one ball.

This is a third type of bonus unit and fifth type of stepper unit.

250 Super Bonus points each for zacaj and markg!

#141 13 days ago

Basically we have been talking about the electro/mechanical workings of a step unit. The rivet disc and wiper are an independent part of the step unit. But it still comes down to its a single step up/ single step down step unit regardless of what happens on the rivet disc. I agree that it might be a 3rd type of bonus unit, but it’s not a 5th type of step unit.

#142 13 days ago

Along with old Chicago and bow and arrow, add delta queen to the list.

#143 13 days ago

Not sure I'd count that as another whole stepper type... It functions the same as others, just has different connections.

Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Along with old Chicago and bow and arrow, add delta queen to the list.

Nip It as well. I assume many others. Never seen it on a non-bally pin though.

#144 13 days ago

Hi Pecos +
me (too or me alone (?)) do complain a bit --- post-127 was asking about Bonus-Units, later on then discussing steppers. I know

AA - continuous steppers*** like Score-Drums or Number-Match-Units
BB - single step resetting steppers (of course also single step stepping-up) like conventional Bonus-Units or Replay-Counters
CC - total reset steppers (...) like many Coin-Units or Bally/Williams Player- / Ball-Count Units
DD - a single step resetting stepper (...) with an third coil for a total reset when needed / wanted like the Bonus-Unit on Fan-Tas-Tic or Grand Prix (or ???)
When the focus is on "Bonus-Unit, how do they work" then the two mentioned steppers (BB DD).

When the focus is on "features of any kind - the variety of --- what did the manufacturers invent": I then ask "what is the definition of 'Bonus' "
- is it "we play good, build up a Bonus-Ladder, when loosing the ball we then get the bonus as a supplement" - then BB and DD
- is it "whatever the manufacturers call(ed) 'Bonus' " - then BB, DD, also continuous stepper***,AA - example Fun Fest https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=972&picno=45245&zoom=1 "Outhole scores Target Bonus", when loosing the ball - whatever is happen to be lit on the "Bow" above the text on the playfield (in the ipdb-picture 3000 points bonus) we will get as bonus points. Can we call a Number Match Replay also a "Bonus" - also AA
- is it "whatever we may call 'Bonus' " it then even can be something with no stepper involved --- see Surf Champ, https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2459&picno=46671 , we start with all five rollover buttons (bottom of the pic) lighted - the ball rolls over - the button toggles off the light and a light (on the right in the pic) lights up in that line upwards --- when ever the ball rolls into the Eject-Hole: We get 100 points for every unlight light in that line upwards / we get 1000 points for every lit light in that line upwards --- is this "getting bonus" ? This goodie works with Bank-Relays and the turning of the Score-Motor - no stepper involved.

I'd call Bonus-Unit when an BB / DD is involved --- other stuff I'd call "a nice feature on a specific pin" - and a Bonus-Unit can be used for "an nice added feature" - think of Double-Bonus / Triple-Bonus / also collecting bonus with Ball in play (my SS Sinbad) / getting as many points as there are bonus on the ladder - the manufacturers invented a lot of nice features. Greetings Rolf

#145 13 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

DD - a single step resetting stepper (...) with an third coil for a total reset when needed / wanted like the Bonus-Unit on Fan-Tas-Tic or Grand Prix (or ???)

Silver Bonus stepper on Prospector as well.

I think there are some games with CC style end of ball bonus steppers

1 week later
#146 4 days ago

Hi
a constructed story --- I like to play my XYZ-Pin - I can make 10 points, 50 points and 1000 points and there are five targets on the playfield I can make 100 points. I do get my 100 points when the ball hits the target "bulls eye shot" - but now and then on a "grace shot" I do not get my 100 points. Why ? Greetings Rolf

#147 4 days ago

Is a grace shot a light hit on a target?
If a target doesn’t score when hit, either the score motor is running giving another score, or the target switch is gapped to far, the switch is dirty, or the target is a make/make switch and the 100 score is the 2nd make blade of the switch.

#148 3 days ago

Hi pinballdaveh
(post-146) "bulls eye shot" and "grace shot" I got from a dictionnary german-english --- Yes, I had a "light hit on a target" in mind. You are right - all You mention may be the cause - I enumerate Your answers (post-147)
AA Score-Motor is running giving another score
BB Target Switch is gapped to far
CC Switch is dirty
DD Target is an make-make-switch and the score is the 2nd make blade of the switch

This topic (see post-1) is something like "chat and learn about EM-Pins" - so I add remarks (for whoever is interested in the problem) to

AA actually whenever the motor is running helping on whatever feature. See the JPG "orange", switches on motor-3D and motor-1C actuate immediately (actually after 15 degrees of turning), motor-3D turns off the lights to many features to inform us "does not / will not work", motor-1C cuts connection "actuating Points-RELAYs", in the JPG we see it for the "N-10-Points-Relay": "encircled green" - simple contacts on the playfield do not give points - we are not informed about, "encircled brown" - slingshots do work but we get no points, "encircled blue" - the working hand in hand of bumper-relays and bumper-units do work - just no points because of motor-1C opening when the motor runs - we are informed because motor-3D cuts the lights.

BB no additional info

CC no additional info

DD nice You came up with --- see here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=35534 on the left, above text "Advance Bonus" there is a bent wire - rollover switch, below on the underneathside of the playfield is such an Make-and-Make-Switch and original in the pin is "2nd make blade" triggers the add bonus feature. The 1st make blade original is for to trigger the "Unique Tilt Rollover Feature" Space Mission also have, see here https://www.ipdb.org/glossary.php#Tilt_Rollover .
I was angry sometimes not getting (caused by DD) my "Advance Bonus" so I threw out the "Unique Tilt Rollover Feature" and wired the switch as a simple TWO-bladed switch to trigger me the bonus.

AA, BB, CC, DD all true --- but I had another cause in mind --- what else can cause the fault ? Greetings Rolf

0Far-Out-Work-35 (resized).jpg
#149 3 days ago

Target switches aren’t gapped close enough for a grace shot. If they were vibrations would close the switch causing extra scoring?

#150 3 days ago

The Four Stepper Unit Types:

  • Step Up/Step Down Stepper from a Williams OXO
  • Two Solenoids
  • Bonus Unit

Step Up - Step Down Stepper (resized).png

  • Step Up/Step Down/Reset Stepper from a Williams Grand Prix
  • Two Solenoids and One Coil
  • Bonus Unit

Step Up - Step Down - Reset Stepper (resized).png

  • Step Up/Reset Stepper from a Williams OXO
  • Two Solenoids
  • Ball Count Unit

Step Up - Reset Stepper (resized).png

  • Step Up Continuous
  • One Solenoid/Coil

Here are three very different Step Up Continuous Stepper Units:

Williams Mini-Match Stepper from a Liberty Bell. This stepper unit uses a coil and an armature instead of a solenoid and plunger. It is hard to work on, at least it is for me. I don't recommend disassembling unless absolutely necessary!

Mini Match Head On (resized).png

Mini Match Side (resized).png

Score Reel Unit from a Williams OXO

Step Up Continuous (resized).png

Match Unit With Bell from a Williams Expo

Match Unit With Bell (resized).png

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