Hopefully this one is not too easy, it happened to me when inspecting a machine for purchase.

Gottlieb Atlantis has been in storage for some time but has now been set up - it's a bit dirty and some of the switches need tweaking, but other than that it looks like it's in good shape. Except for one thing, you notice all of the 1,000 point opportunities award you points, but there's no chime. In fact, you observe no movement at all with regard to the chime. The chimes for 100 and 10 are working fine. How to troubleshoot?

1. Check coil, resistance and jump it
2. Check contact on the score relay

This was the prevailing thought at the sale. The seller was a great guy, and an experienced electrician. He first determined that the contacts were all good, and then was able to determine in time that the coil was energizing. Still no movement or sound on the chime.

I didn't know much about the chimes at the time, but we're almost out of things it could be. What's left?

When chimes don’t work #1
check the chime switch on its scoring relay.
#2 check the coil for proper resistance and if it’s the proper coil number.
#3 coil sleeve and plunger are dirty.
#4 plunger return cushion is worn out and sticky holding the plunger down.
#5 coil slip on connector is loose or came off.

I forgot one. The coil plunger plastic tip is worn out or missing.

This is what it was! We flicked the plunger up and down with our hand and didn't notice anything in the beginning, but there was some grime on the plunger/sleeve that was apparently stronger than the coil. I am embarrassed when I think about how much time was spent on the electrical tests when all it needed was a cleaning.

Hi
You probably know the lovely feature "pressing the left flipper button turns on the lights". Bally and Williams pin up to around 1974 - we plug-in or we "plug-in and toggle-on" --- no lights. Then we press the left flipper button and the pin lights up. The socalled Lock-Rely is made pulling - so switches on this relay close - the switches are in the 6VAC circuitry so general illumination is turned on. Later pins - example williams Space Mission turn on the lights when we toggle-on --- no such switches on the Lock-Relay (direct wiring to the lights) - but (strange?) Space Mission still has the Lock-Relay in the pin.

Why ? - what for ?

Hint - when we work on problems / faults in the Start-up of pins - after a test (also means before the next test): We toggle-off the pin and immediately after we toggle-on again. (((Here we also can ask: Why do we do this ?))) Greetings Rolf

The lock relay is usually used to unlatch any latching relays, or other physical things that can get stuck in a 'non-default' position

Hi zacay
You are fast --- I could not finish making a JPG --- You came with the answer --- specifically the Game-Over-Relay MUST be in tripped position to start a new game - to reset the Score Drums etc. We live in different time zones - I will show the JPG by tomorrow. Greetings Rolf

The lock relay in a Williams space mission era machine only does one thing.
When the machine is reset and ready to play and the on/off switch is turned off then on a pulse will be sent to the game over trip relay, putting the machine in game over mode.

Question #1 I’m not sure of the answer. I would say to jumper certain wires on the ball count unit?
Question #2 I think the A switch is to pulse the score reel coil during reset.
The B switch is in parallel with all of the other score reel B switches in the reset relay hold in circuit.
The C switch is the 9th position carryover to advance the 10,000 score reel.

On those games I always just bend the secondary left flipper switch shut..

Hi
I refer to my question (Lock-Relay in Williams pins) in post-57 and the correct answers - zacaj , post-58 --- pinballdaveh , post-60. In my JPG are snippets from the ipdb-schematics "Space Mission" - no switches of Lock-Relay in the 6VAC-circuitry --- the lights turn on when we toggle-on the main power switch. Important to know is "in what state are Bally / Williams / Gottlieb schematics drawn (?)" --- we have power, we start a new game (so it will be a 1-player-game) - start-up / resetting is made - and the ball is kicked over to the shooter alley --- NOW we toggle-off the main power switch. Steppers, Interlock-Relays - example Williams Game-Over-Relay, relays mounted in a bank: This stuff stays as is when we toggle-off - relays that were constantly pulling now let go (as we toggle off) - important example the Williams Lock-Relay. IN THIS state the schematics are drawn. See the JPG - "red 1": The Reset-Relay was active during reset, then was made non-pulling and then we toggled-off. "red 2 and red 3a": The Game-Over-Relay was made to latch (means "in play mode") - these switches are drawn "pin is ready to play, Game-Over-Relay is latched". "red 4": (Remember) We toggled-off, so there is no power in the pin, the pulling Lock-Relay let go due to "no power" - switch is an Normally-Closed switch so it is drawn closed.

In mind we film a slow motion video - we toggle-on (an pin with the Game-Over-Relay latched, see above) - we toggle-on, the 110VAC side gets current and produces 6VAC - the lights immediately turn on. The transformer also produces 24VAC --- from the right-upper corner in the JPG power start flowing - "red A" to "red B" then through the coil on Lock-Relay to "red C", "red D", "red E" - a complete circuitry - the Lock-Relay starts pulling in, moves the armature and opens "red 4". Yes, true - but we are in "slow motion" --- at the same time as the Lock-Relay starts pulling ...: At the same time power also runs "red A, B, F, G, H" through the coil on Game-Over-Relay-Trip-Coil, "red I, J, K, D, E" - a complete circuitry - the Game-Over-Relay trips --- because the switch on the Lock-Relay ("red 4") is adjusted to open late.
In this short period of time "Lock-Relay starts pulling, moves the armature, opens 'red 4' " --- in this short period of time the Game-Over-Relay-Trip-side actuates !!! (and by actuating opens "red 2" and closes "red 3a". We then can start a new game - ... Coin-Relay pulls-in and closes "red 5" and through the (now) closed switch "red 3a" the resetting for a new game starts / happens ("red 3b, 3c ... 3j").

I have marked "red 6, red 7, red 8" in the JPG --- what are these switches for ? Greetings Rolf

0Sp-Mi-Work-34 (resized).jpg

Hi
I am brooding over pinballdaveh 's question in his post-40 - actually over the word THREE applications. See the first JPG, on top is the classic "Gottlieb Series Relay" in series with other coils - a Voltage divider. On the bottom of the JPG is a thing to discuss - the resistor is only in use when the Alternating-Relay is not pulling --- and we'd come to the old discussion "preheating the coil or spark-suppressing on the contact-points on the Bonus-Unit".
In the second JPG is an example of a beautyful Bally application - a true resistor in series with an coil. Well, zacaj in his post-41 already have mentioned the "resistor - two coils". Greetings Rolf

0Voltage-Dividers (resized).jpg

0Capersville-Work-01b (resized).jpg

The series relay and the coils in series with it are correct for 2 out of 3.
The resistor answer and description is correct also.
The last answer is when a coil is used in the lights voltage circuitry.
Mostly used in a bonus circuit.
Congrats well done.

I don't think I've run across this case. Do you have an example in mind? Extra credit if there's a schematic on IPDB for it.

Thanks,

/Mark

Check out the target alpha double bonus post. Schematics aren’t available on IPDB for gottlieb machines. Bonus unit scanning will use this type of relay also, z relay?

Hadn't noticed that before. Very interesting. Here it is for those not wanting to find the other topic:
Target Alpha Double Bonus relay coil (resized).jpg
Note that the K/Double Bonus relay coil (A-9746) apparently has a resistance of just 1.8 ohms, compared to a garden variety relay coil (e.g. A-9735) which has a resistance of 14.9 ohms. This coil would draw about (6 volts/1.8 ohms) 3.3 amps while the normal coil would draw about (25 volts/14.9 ohms) 1.6 amps or about half the current.

Hi
when I was contemplating over a question in an other post - the following came up to my mind - see the JPG --- my Shangri La has on top of the playfield three Rollover-Buttons always worth 1 point (in the JPG "red 1, grey 1, blue 1"). The first time the ball rolls over such a button: I get 1 point AND the bumper below (below the Rollover-Button) lights up, stays lit. I am very interested in lighting the bumper --- the bumper lit is worth 10 points, unlit only 1 point. I play and play and notice - seldom to rare - a grace shot/rollover, first time rolling over an Rollover-Button: The bumper below lights up BUT I do not get the point (the one point the Rollover-Button should give). Question: What shall I do ?
A hint: Look up in the ipdb-schematics on page-5 and/or page-6. Greetings Rolf
P.S.: It is quite clear on what question I was contemplating.

0Shangri-La-ipdb-Playfield-Work-Save (resized).jpg

Hi
to the question in post-40 and the posts -65 through -69 --- in the first JPG: a Bally Voltage-Divider - a Lamp and a coil - see the difference to "JPG in post-69, Ampere-Divider" (?).

I like the new Finder relays - maybe of interest here https://gfinder.findernet.com/public/attachments/40/EN/S40EN.pdf - on the first page a picture - I use the 40.52 (6VAC, 24VAC) type quite often: Page-6 to about page-10. From page-10 I show in the second JPG technical data - Volts, Amperes, Resistance. Greetings Rolf

0Night-Rider-Work-22 (resized).jpg

0Finder-Relays (resized).jpg

I'm working on a 1947 ESCO Coed and came across a real puzzle for you.

It's a bulb-scoring game with two steppers: a 1000-point stepper and a 10,000-point stepper (that also controls the 100,000-point lights). When I push in the coin chute to start a new game the 10,000-point stepper resets back to zero but the 1000 point score remains from the last game. It turns out that I'm missing a reset coil on the 1000-point stepper unit. Check it out:

20190519_153309_resized (resized).jpg

Here's where the mystery comes in.

1. There's no sign that there ever was a coil there - no bracket, no markings or residue.
2. There aren't any loose wires in the area like you'd expect to see when a coil is removed.
3. The schematic makes no mention of a 1000-point reset coil. I've checked it up and down 10 times.

Is it possible that the game is designed to spot the player X-thousand points at the start of a game as a holdover feature?

It should automatically step that unit to the zero position on game start. No reset coil, just steps around until it hits zero.

Cool cool cool. Gotta keep working on the score motor then.

Next question: The coin mech is really sticky and looks like it might be gummed up with old oil. It moves and works, but it takes a lot of effort. Is there a de-greasing product and/or a better lubricant you'd recommend to loosen it up?

20190519_153347_resized (resized).jpg

I always disassemble and clean off any old grease or lube. You can examine for straightness at the same time and fix if needed (they are frequently slightly bent). Then lube with a drop of 3-in-1 and work back and forth. Should work great for a long while afterwards!

Such a great thread. I’ve got a good question, It took me 2 months of puzzling to get it (seriously) and I think people forget how much of this is Greek to those of us starting out

Gottlieb “Target pool” on the bench. Hit start button and it appears to reset correctly but tilt light is on and don’t even need to put balls in it, nothing works, no targets, not even the flippers. Can’t link the schematic but what would be a set of things to check?

Check the tilt switches, slam switches, and mechanical board bank reset.

There's no substitute for disassembly and cleaning as @bingopodcast suggested, but if that's not your thing, mineral spirits is a great degunkifier. Apply, work the mech back and forth, apply a little more to flush out the gunk, repeat. Works well for many moving metal parts.

There is often a number of switches on one of the power rails that allow the game to do reset related things, but can cut power to game play related things. All of those switches need to be closed for the game to play. Here's an example from El Dorado:
El Dorado power (resized).jpg
Note that the Ball Count unit can control one or more of those switches, so if you don't put a ball into the game, the Outhole relay won't fire, the ball won't get kicked and close the Ball Trough switch, so the Ball Count unit won't advance and the Ball Count unit switch won't send power to the playfield.

If you're lucky you can manually advance the Ball Count unit and you might get playfield power. There could be other open switches too though.

<typo deleted>

You guys are too good. The target pool has 4 tilt switches all of which need to be open. There are a set of well-labeled tilt contacts on the reset unit and a hidden non-labeled contact “under” the reset unit. For me the long term issue was that the tilt light does not go off and the playfield become active until a ball rolls over a shooter lane switch

Took me a loooong time to find that, I thought it was a tilt problem.

Bonus points: the reset process goes through a contact on the end of the giant playfield bank so the game will not successfully reset when the pf is disconnected

2 player made no difference

It was a misalignment on the balls in play unit. When it advanced to the 2nd out it would arc to the 3rd out. Big blue spark!

Answer #1 parallel switch with the other score reels. Always open the circuit will think that the score reel is on zero, no matter what position it’s on.
Answer #2 always closed the circuit will think that there’s a score reel that needs resetting yet, so the reset relay stays pulled in and the score motor continues running.
Answer #3 score reel reset switch
Always open , the score reel will never reset on #s 1-9.
Answer #4 always closed, the score reel will always get pulses to try to find zero position.
Answer #5 carryover switch
Always open carryover from 9-10 points on the score reels will never happen.
Answer #6 always closed
Carryover will always happen no matter what position the score reel is at.
Example: instead of scoring 1 point you would score 11.

I had some time to investigate (reminder: bulb scoring, 1000's step unit should advance to 0 at the start of the game but doesn't) and I have some questions about what I found:

1. The credit step unit advance coil doesn't have an EOS switch, so the coil stays in (and buzzes loudly) when I push in the coin unit (the schematic calls it "shuffle"). Is this supposed to happen?
2. When I shuffle, the score motor doesn't move. Should it?
3. Looking at the 1000's step unit, it doesn't seem to have a cam or switch or any way to stop the coil from firing once it reaches the 0 position.
4. The EOS switch on the 10,000 step unit has a loose wire but there's no indication of where it should connect. Could this be part of the issue?

Again, the 10,000 unit is working correctly. I guess what it boils down to is, how should the system work? What should be happening?

1) no. The credit unit should subtract one. Then let go. Your reset sequence is not working.
2) that depends on if something needs the motor to move (like the 1000s reset). Check your reset relays.
3) these esco games know based on the wiring of the stepper. Again, your reset relays or score motor switches are not correct.
4) probably not - that would impact 10000s reset and advance.

Post #83 answer
Continuous extra balls
Williams grand prix
The extra ball relays hold circuit is controlled by a series/parallel network of switches.
A NC switch on each of the score relays are connected in series to the extra ball relay hold switch.
A. NO switch on the ball index relay is wired in parallel is also in the hold circuit.
List of events
While playing you score an extra ball, the extra ball relay pulls in and stays pulled in because the ball index relay is already pulled in.
After the ball drains the bonus will score, the outhole relay will pull in, release the ball index relay, and kick the ball to the shooting lane.
Now the extra ball relay is relying on the scoring relays to open the extra ball relay hold circuit.
Once ball is plunged the first scoring that fires will be doing 2 things.
The first is the NC switch will be opening the extra ball relay, and the second is a NO switch that will be pulsing the ball index relay back on.
To keep the problem from happening regap the NC switches so that they open right at the start of the relay armature movement to increase the time the extra ball relay has to open.
Also the ball index relay switch for the hold circuit should be checked for a not to close gap. If this is always closed the extra ball relay will never open.

Hi
in post-40 is the question "in what applications does a AC-Relay not use the full coil voltage supplied by the transformer ?". Some text to this are in post-65 through -69, -71. I stumbled over an "application ... DC-Relay ..." - the Williams Grand Prix "Delay-Relay". When one of the spinners spins: The Outhole-Relay and the Top Eject-Relay and the left and right Bonus-Relays are hindered to pull-in --- as the pulling Spinner-Relay makes the Delay-Relay to actuate - and the Delay-Relay opens a switch. See the JPG - as an example I show the Top Eject-Relay hindered to pull-in.

The reasoning, justification, argumentation to "Delay-Relay (DC) does not use the full coil voltage" is a bit whacky: We know that on a car battery when discharging the voltage drops , fully loaded, 100% is 12.75 Volts, 50% is 12.25 Volts, discharged is less than 11.9 Volts. The capacitor on the Delay-Relay is a battery finally discharging - so the voltage to the coil on the Delay-Relay drops means "part-time the Delay-Relay does not consume full voltage". Greetings Rolf

0Grand-Prix-Work-41 (resized).jpg

Post #70
Shangri-la
Rollover button doesn’t score 1 point when rolled over
The 3 rollover buttons each have a NO switch to do 2 functions.
First the button has to pulse the latch in relay, lighting its pop bumper and change the pop bumper scoring.
And the second is to pulse the ones relay.
To accomplish this a make/break switch is on the latch in relay, so when the relay pulls in the m/b switch will transfer its power from the latch in relay coil to the ones relay.
So to get the 1 point during the initial hit of the button, is dependent on how long the rollover button switch is closed, and how quickly the m/b switch on the bank relay can switch to the ones relay.

Hi pinballdaveh
Your answer in post-90 is 100% true. I was contemplating over the question (AC-Relay-Coils not using the full voltage) in post-40, the Gottlieb-Series-Relay came up into my mind --- and then I said "hey, Williams has another solution, instead of using Trip-Coils and 'mounted in series' the Series-Relay" --- Williams has the solution: On the Trip-Relay is a Make-And-Brake-Switch mounted.

I play my Shangri La in five ball mode. Three Rollover-Buttons on top of the playfield - in every ball I hit one (to light the bumper below) - maybe two, maybe all three - lets say a bit less than two so 5 balls times 1.6 equals 8 hits per game. Maybe on every tenth game it happens - I get the bumper below lighted - but I do not get the point.

I asked in post-70 "What shall I do ?" --- first I shall adjust / adapt my description to pinballdaveh 's description (FIRST the bumper below is lighted - THEN the point for rolling over the Rollover-Button is given*) --- second I shall enjoy the beautyfull Williams solution.
given*: the 2nd, 3rd ... time the ball rolls over the Rollover-Button - the M&B-Switch is thrown - I get the point for rolling the ball over the Rollover-Button - as far as there always can be "grace rollovers". Greetings Rolf

Post #3
Machines that have Tilt rollovers
Add Aztec to the list.

Post#8
Final answer to why 1000’s relay stays closed and 1000 score reel stays energized.
Answer: the 1000’s relay has a hold circuit that consists of a NO switch on the 1000’s relay, a NC end of stroke switch on the 1000 score reel, and the player up disc.
As long as the player up disc is positioned correctly the problem is the end of stroke switch is not opening when the score reel coil pulls in, thus not opening the 1000’s relay.

Thanks for posting this - I always wondered how that delay was accomplished!

Hi
to post-3 and post-92 (Unique Tilt-Rollover) - see https://www.ipdb.org/glossary.php#Tilt_Rollover - and https://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?ft=tilt.rollover&sortby=date&searchtype=advanced --- Yes - pinballdaveh 's "Aztec" also - and also Space Mission and Space Odyssey. See the JPG - not so good drawn in the real schematics (my JPG, upper part, encircled red) ; The three-bladed Make-and-Make-Switch in the pin is shown in the schematics at two places as "simple two-bladed Normally-Open-Switch". In the lower right corner on the JPG I show a good, correct drawing of an Make-and-Make-Switch. And so in the lower left corner of the JPG I show "I would like to see this drawing" in the original schematics.
In the pin the switch is mounted on the underneathside of the playfield. Nearest to the wood is blade-wire-yellow, then blade-wire-white-black, then (bottom-most in the pin) blade-wire-blue-white.

I had two reasons (which two ?) to do what I did in my Space Mission --- I unsoldered wire-white-black and taped the bare end of the unsoldered wire, and I unsoldered-wire-blue-white and soldered the wire onto the middle blade. Why did I do these things ? Greetings Rolf

0Sp-Mi-Work-20b-Save (resized).jpg

By unsoldering the white/black wire and tapping it off eliminates the tilt rollover function.
Unsoldering the blue/white wire and soldering it to the middle blade increases the pulse time for the advance relay to pull in.

Conan WHY.gif

Hi
I asked in post-95 and pinballdaveh gave the correct answers in post-96. The story behind (me asking) - as I degraded (reduced in rank) the ultrarare three-bladed Make-and-Make-Switch to be an ordinary two-bladed Normally-Open-Switch and then adjusted this simple switch"tight": No more looooong travel of the upper blade needed - so no more long travel of the "bent wire pressing down on the switch" needed --- now and then I now get a bonus I did not get before this alteration. Greetings Rolf

Hi
another problem / question:
I could buy me an "Williams Big Deal". I drove it to my place - put it together (backbox, legs) - looked at it and said "playfield is way to steep for me" - so I adjusted the leg-levellers to have it less steep. I then cleaned the playfield with a wet towel, put new rubbers on. I plugged in, toggled-on, started a game. The pin did reset and kicked out the first ball --- and TILT - Tilt-Light in the Backglass visible, no action on the playfield. I launched the ball - it came down to the Outhole, Tilt-Light did go off, the pin stepped to next ball, kicked the ball out - and again TILT --- and so on through all the balls till Game-Over.
Question: Did I make a fault - bending some switches when cleaning / putting-on new rubbers ? or what ? Greetings Rolf

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