(Topic ID: 215745)

A new EM


By mrm_4

1 year ago



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  • 46 posts
  • 26 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by SuperDaveOsbourn
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    #1 1 year ago

    Every once in a while a company does a remake of a classic like MM or AFM. I think it would be sweet to see a new EM.

    Who do you guys think should do one, and what EM would be awesome to see re-released?

    #2 1 year ago

    Stern did Whoa Nelly..

    #3 1 year ago

    Clarification: Re-release as an “EM” not solid state. No circuit boards! Just, Jones plugs, reel scores, etc.

    #4 1 year ago
    Quoted from frankmac:

    Stern did Whoa Nelly..

    Is that it? No one has done anything else?

    #5 1 year ago

    I would love to see some of the great Gottlieb wedge heads remade. Volley, Neptune, and Abra Ca Dabra to name a few.

    #6 1 year ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    Clarification: Re-release as an “EM” not solid state. No circuit boards! Just, Jones plugs, reel scores, etc.

    It would cost more then a new modern game to make a em the way they used to.

    #8 1 year ago
    Quoted from Mitch:

    It would cost more then a new modern game to make a em the way they used to.

    I’m not worried about that. I’m just saying how awesome it would be. Imagine going to your local bowling alley and being like “holy shit a 2018 4 Million BC?!!!”

    #9 1 year ago
    Quoted from Mitch:

    It would cost more then a new modern game to make a em the way they used to.

    Maybe not. Nobody says the wiring and relays and score motor have to be done the same way as they where in the 50's 60"s and 70's. Wiring for example could be more modular. More of a plug in system. If labor costs could be cut by at least 50% by a using modular systems it might be possible. You would also need to remove the cost of copper as well, to make it work. Just throwing ideas out there.

    #10 1 year ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    I’m not worried about that. I’m just saying how awesome it would be. Imagine going to your local bowling alley and being like “holy shit a 2018 4 Million BC?!!!”

    #11 1 year ago

    2001 or Centigrade 37 would be nice to see as someone’s NIB post on here.

    #12 1 year ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    Who do you guys think should do one,

    Somebody that needs a huge tax write off. Or wants to run a pre order scam.

    Kidding aside. What we think would be great, isn't always possible. Huge costs and how many will you really sell ? I don't think any manufacturer we currently have can afford the risk.

    Keep dreaming though. Sometimes dreams do come true. I hope yours does.

    LTG : )

    #13 1 year ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    Is that it? No one has done anything else?

    THE PABST
    CAN CRUSHER

    I believe it is a Whoa Nelly reskin for the most part.

    #14 1 year ago

    The next best thing is a Nick Raschilla ( PA) restoration. I have four and it’s closest thing to NIB you will find.

    #15 1 year ago

    This is definitely the post to brag about those budman you should post a few pics!

    #16 1 year ago

    I am traveling today but will post some tomorrow. I the meantime you can see Nick’s collection on Pinball Owners site. He goes by “ specialwhenlit”.... Green Lane, PA.

    #17 1 year ago

    I've always wanted to know why Herb Silvers/Retro Pinball LLC chose to remake King of Diamonds specifically? I’ve not come across a definitive answer. Does anyone know?

    There are other GTB EM games that are just as, if not more, beloved than KoD, and there are certainly games that would be easier/cheaper to manufacture, given KoD's backbox animation unit and centre carousel roto.

    The game was a unique early foray into "remaking" games, and the mix of solid state tech in a EM skin was novel--but untimately, didn't produce a financial winfall for games produced on such a small scale (55 units).

    Photo from IMDB

    #18 1 year ago

    Might be a good idea... You probably could get a small run of EM remakes that were made in China. It might be economically feasible, but the remakes would have to be super popular titles like Atlantis , El Dorado , Royal Flush , Fireball , etc.

    #19 1 year ago

    Why remakes of existing titles? Why not a genuine em on a new theme, but perhaps a 'period' theme to match the analog technology? I'd love a Gerry Anderson themed em - Stingray, Thunderbirds - though whether the nostalgia-pinball/tv-fandom base would be sufficient to buy into that as a viable project is doubtful, and licensing problems would rule it out. I'm a bit surprised that there aren't more one-off 're-themed' em games. Re: cost - I agree, using new production methods (including probably modular) perhaps it might actually (just) be possible to make a viable-ish business plan for production of a new em, but it wouldn't be easy. Back in the day, tooling costs of many parts would have been spread over many titles, for instance. Then again, some really good old games had a relatively limited number of parts. Problem too would be ongoing fixing/maintenance if old style analog switches used. There's no way to set up a network of experienced techs! But we can dream.......

    #20 1 year ago

    To me there is no reason to implement the game logic using relays and switches. You can accomplish vastly more with a $2 CPU. What I appreciate is the charm and purity of the era. Here's my pitch!

    A cabinet with an LCD display and translite. Probably has a knocker and chime box as well. All boards part of the base cabinet. Games are bought as playfields that you drop into the cabinet. Focus is on playfield artwork, layout, fun. Typically unlicensed themes. Open source allows the community to extend and enrich the game.

    This would be a platform that encouraged indie games. The focus would not be on expensive assets like video and music but on innovative layout and game play. That is one thing I love about (especially earlier) EMs, the variety of layouts, flipper arrangements. Solid state logic provides the freedom to implement interesting rules and logic that we could not achieve in old EMs that were limited by how many relays and units could be fit into the machine.

    Of course the question comes down to how much would it cost.....

    #22 1 year ago

    I think William’s 1969 Suspense is such a cool pin. Hope to find one soon

    #23 1 year ago

    It would not have the feel or sounds of an EM (that make it for me at least)
    without score reels or bells and Chimes or the ka-chunk ka-chink of the countdown bonus
    or the ratatattat of score reels resetting.
    What logic powers the game, could be either a mpu or contact & relay stacks.
    Herb's KoD score reels lacked the feel and true sounds of the score reels resetting,
    though I think I remember them trying to reproduce those sounds electronically
    but it was hollow.

    #24 1 year ago

    So, pick your absolute favorite EM and tell us what you are willing to pay for a NIB version?
    ^^^^
    There's your answer.

    #25 1 year ago

    Someone else is building new EMs:

    http://backglass.org/williams/tlpdohw/expo2016/

    Typhoon has been at the VFW pin museum since that Expo. The second game Firefly will be there for the show this weekend (assuming I finish it up in time, which I have to or Clay will kill me!), and then at Expo in the fall.

    #26 1 year ago
    Quoted from dr_nybble:

    A cabinet with an LCD display and translite. Probably has a knocker and chime box as well. All boards part of the base cabinet. Games are bought as playfields that you drop into the cabinet. Focus is on playfield artwork, layout, fun. Typically unlicensed themes. Open source allows the community to extend and enrich the game.

    Sounds familiar! https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/multi-bingo-machine

    My code is open source and with 12 unique playfield layouts to choose from, users can extend or make their own custom games. I've also portioned every single game independently and all code is present in that repo.

    Thanks for the shout out about Robo-Frenzy as well (currently waiting on a couple of parts).

    frobozz' efforts are very exciting - I hope to one day play one of those lost playfield designs! Keep up your excellent work.

    #27 1 year ago

    Bingopodcast, PM me...

    #29 1 year ago
    Quoted from frobozz:

    Someone else is building new EMs:
    http://backglass.org/williams/tlpdohw/expo2016/
    Typhoon has been at the VFW pin museum since that Expo. The second game Firefly will be there for the show this weekend (assuming I finish it up in time, which I have to or Clay will kill me!), and then at Expo in the fall.

    I'd love to see and play those games Duncan, but Allentown is the same weekend and Clay seems deadset against moving it.

    Do you have any plans to ever bring those games to any other shows?

    Thanks,
    Sean Kavanagh

    #30 1 year ago

    Might make sense for Duncan to coordinate with a trusted 'tour guide' for his
    implimentations of another's designs and thoughts. These games finished (full
    artwork package as well) or not need to be played, experienced and reviewed
    by the EM lords that frequent the shows around the US.

    This is the only way to justify long term the project to implement many or some
    of the better designs, to get peer review and considerations along with marveling
    at the 1000s of hours of dedication this man has put into a lot of game designs
    from one genius mind hidden from the world by another genius.

    #31 1 year ago
    Quoted from Stoomer:

    I'd love to see and play those games Duncan, but Allentown is the same weekend and Clay seems deadset against moving it.
    Do you have any plans to ever bring those games to any other shows?
    Thanks,
    Sean Kavanagh

    Well if a game like Firefly starts out at the VFW just because of the timing when it was completed, I'm expecting Clay to drag it to the next Expo to give it a wider audience. So there's that. Once the stable of unmade Harry games gets a little bigger, I can see taking it on a tour of the big shows. I'm very much for getting these things as much exposure as possible.

    ETA: I hope to have the third game (Red Arrow) done in time for this year's Expo too. The playfield is all cut and I have a donor game to build it into. We'll see if I get it done!

    #32 1 year ago

    This is basically one way of how to build a new (sort of) EM, pinball machine or other, do it yourself with spare used parts from cannibalized machines.

    You could also do the opposite of what others have done to EM's, take an SS game and turn it into a EM. Revenge!!

    The easiest to transform would be the early SS pins that they never made an EM version of, but should have. They are basically just EM's with SS running gear anyway. Unfortunately with licensing issues, these could never be mass produced as the price tag would be too high, but you could avoid all that and just do it yourself with a one off. Anyone can do it! Just like it's probably just a blown fuse, only now it's just figuring out the logic! Easy!

    Some cool examples:

    1979 Gottlieb Pinball Pool
    1979 Gottlieb Totem
    1981 Gottlieb Black Hole
    1982 Gottlieb Haunted House, an EM with 3 playfields, now how cool is that!

    1980 Bally Nitro Ground Shaker

    #33 1 year ago
    Quoted from SuperDaveOsbourn:

    Might make sense for Duncan to coordinate with a trusted 'tour guide' for his
    implimentations of another's designs and thoughts. These games finished (full
    artwork package as well) or not need to be played, experienced and reviewed
    by the EM lords that frequent the shows around the US.
    This is the only way to justify long term the project to implement many or some
    of the better designs, to get peer review and considerations along with marveling
    at the 1000s of hours of dedication this man has put into a lot of game designs
    from one genius mind hidden from the world by another genius.

    I hope you're not saying it should be done by committee? I don't do committees. I'm not a bullheaded jerk like Clay (I say that as a dear friend!), but I don't do committees. I'm the one pouring the tanker truck full of money and time into this project for no reason other than for the good of pinball history, so I'll be the one steering it along.

    #34 1 year ago
    Quoted from oldtowner:

    Why remakes of existing titles? Why not a genuine em on a new theme

    Just make it yourself.

    Gottlieb Hot Rod

    #35 1 year ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    Just make it yourself

    Looks like a rethemed GTB Mustang/Bronco to me.

    #36 1 year ago
    Quoted from pinwiztom:

    Looks like a rethemed GTB Mustang/Bronco to me.

    This was at MGC. It's much more than that. The art looked great in person, but this one had totally new rules programmed on a P-ROC I'm pretty sure the owner said. It was very cool to play.

    #37 1 year ago
    Quoted from frobozz:

    Someone else is building new EMs:
    http://backglass.org/williams/tlpdohw/expo2016/
    Typhoon has been at the VFW pin museum since that Expo. The second game Firefly will be there for the show this weekend (assuming I finish it up in time, which I have to or Clay will kill me!), and then at Expo in the fall.

    So Duncan, is there any plan to put all these old designs in a book or on-line or IPDB or something where nerds like us could look through them? I know I would love to take a gander through them.

    #38 1 year ago
    Quoted from spiroagnew:

    I've always wanted to know why Herb Silvers/Retro Pinball LLC chose to remake King of Diamonds specifically? I’ve not come across a definitive answer. Does anyone know?

    Simple: Herb has been refurbishing and selling games for years. His #1 most requested and sold EM was (at the time) KOD. He had done so many, the donor games were drying up. At least at a reasonable return for what he has to put into each one in labor and new parts. With Backglass, Plastic Sets, and Playfield art already done (and at his disposal), he wanted to make new games from scratch. With "demand" higher than "supply", and some of the major development items already done, that is why KOD was used as the first game.

    At the time, I would have personally chosen El Dorado or even Fast Draw. But both would have required creating Drop Target parts/tooling that no longer existed. Of course, from Concept to completion, KOD took 10 years so the market had changed a bit and my personal choices probably would have been a bit more desirable over KOD (my personal opinion). Everyone has their favorites and thinks others may share the same choices. But you never actually know the market until you have an actual game to sell. If any "old" remake has a chance, it will be Eight Ball Deluxe. But only time will tell if that one every becomes a reality

    It was Herb's desire to make the second game Bank-A-Ball. Some of you may have seen his "Prototype" wood rail BAB. But instead, I wanted to do Queen of Hearts. The game would have actually been built like a Wood Rail and had a greatly reduced BOM compared to KOD. And priced accordingly. Additionally, due to its size and weight, would have been "ship-able" via UPS in 3 standard shipping boxes. Essentially being very much like "The Pin".

    #39 1 year ago
    Quoted from RazerX:

    So Duncan, is there any plan to put all these old designs in a book or on-line or IPDB or something where nerds like us could look through them? I know I would love to take a gander through them.

    Jay is adding the info on them to ipdb as they come into existence. I should probably get him the drawings to add to those listings. I sometimes have "the binder" with me when I'm at Expo, and at their request I've made copies of that binder for a couple of pinball designers just so they could have Harry inspiration close at hand... but no, the plan is for these to be released to the world in fully-built fully-functional 3 dimensional form, not just trapped as drawings on paper like they have been for so many years.

    #40 1 year ago
    Quoted from frobozz:

    Jay is adding the info on them to ipdb as they come into existence. I should probably get him the drawings to add to those listings. I sometimes have "the binder" with me when I'm at Expo, and at their request I've made copies of that binder for a couple of pinball designers just so they could have Harry inspiration close at hand... but no, the plan is for these to be released to the world in fully-built fully-functional 3 dimensional form, not just trapped as drawings on paper like they have been for so many years.

    Would be awesome if you could get those on IPDB. Would love to see em. Thanks for sharing!

    #41 1 year ago
    Quoted from CactusJack:

    Simple: Herb has been refurbishing and selling games for years. His #1 most requested and sold EM was (at the time) KOD. He had done so many, the donor games were drying up. At least at a reasonable return for what he has to put into each one in labor and new parts. With Backglass, Plastic Sets, and Playfield art already done (and at his disposal), he wanted to make new games from scratch. With "demand" higher than "supply", and some of the major development items already done, that is why KOD was used as the first game.
    At the time, I would have personally chosen El Dorado or even Fast Draw. But both would have required creating Drop Target parts/tooling that no longer existed. Of course, from Concept to completion, KOD took 10 years so the market had changed a bit and my personal choices probably would have been a bit more desirable over KOD (my personal opinion). Everyone has their favorites and thinks others may share the same choices. But you never actually know the market until you have an actual game to sell. If any "old" remake has a chance, it will be Eight Ball Deluxe. But only time will tell if that one every becomes a reality
    It was Herb's desire to make the second game Bank-A-Ball. Some of you may have seen his "Prototype" wood rail BAB. But instead, I wanted to do Queen of Hearts. The game would have actually been built like a Wood Rail and had a greatly reduced BOM compared to KOD. And priced accordingly. Additionally, due to its size and weight, would have been "ship-able" via UPS in 3 standard shipping boxes. Essentially being very much like "The Pin".

    I saw it. The rotating target in the center I thought was a cool feature.

    I thought I wanted the remade KoD until I played it. I think it was a combination of the fact that it just didn't have an EM feel, and I didn't care for the mylar playfield at all. You guys gave it your best effort and the technological part of it was really well done, but the game just didn't do it for me. Maybe also because I never really thought KoD was all that in the first place. I owned one and I didn't keep it all that long. I've never been much of a fan of those carousel roto targets anyway, or roto target games in general.

    Maybe BAB would have been better, but still, to me an EM is the clunks and clicks and racket and without it, even though it LOOKED like an EM, it didn't have the feel.

    #42 1 year ago

    I thought KOD was a good choice. It was definitely one of the best wedgeheads of the 60's, going forward great art sells, so I would think about Centigrade 37, Abracadabra, or a super low production game like Strange World.

    #43 1 year ago

    Raschilla pics as requested

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    45C8CD8F-E6FA-4C7A-A74B-8AC3DE7121F6 (resized).jpeg

    #44 1 year ago

    More pics. When he is finished, the game plays as beautifully as it looks because of the thorough manner in which he restores. It’s not in his bones to skip a step or do a job half baked. Nick Raschilla is a good guy to boot.

    4D397988-66B2-4416-AACD-067B382E17FB (resized).jpeg

    2529F910-073D-424F-978B-2823E8741694 (resized).jpeg

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    DC7DBD1E-383F-4D1F-AE34-D3395F9A0CAB (resized).jpeg

    #45 1 year ago

    Fireball 3 would be worthy. 4 locked balls, multiple spinners,2 player.

    #46 1 year ago

    Dunkinator, I appreciate your time, the effort to document and of course your red-hair personality.
    What was effectively left for dead is now yours, the curator, the GOD of old and past, not-to-be,-yet-to-be
    pinball designs by selection, committee or otherwise is your choice. If you do nothing with it, your choice
    and the world knows other than a few mentions this stuff exists. But with help from others, dedicated
    hobbyists as yourself and a little trust it might not only get done quicker, but more appropriately better.
    Committee? I don't think so, how about folks working together and making it happen all in this lifetime?

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