(Topic ID: 217437)

A lotta ins.. a lotta outs - TBL maintenance thread


By sd_tom

2 years ago

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  • Latest reply 12 hours ago by cpr9999
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#501 14 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Did you check the ribbon cable and pins?
If both look good secure with hot glue gun and do same under playfield.
Other option is to take off mini playfield printed circuit board and resolder connectors.

Yes I visually inspected the ribbon cable, its connector, its connection to the board and the underside pin soldering. Nothing looks bad. I also checked the wire harness for any looseness and continuity. Did the same for the 3 pin board connector. Again continuity from top to bottom no suspicious solder points. I almost considered resoldering but was afraid I'd damage the board.

Quoted from cpr9999:

Assuming you unplugged switch connector and verified the wires are seated in the connector? Use flatbladed screwdriver and push wires into connector.
Of course you could test this with ohmmeter for continuity and wiggly the wires to check for intermittent connection.

Did that and all was well.

When the MPF is mounted and the switch has stopped registering again it "seems like" wiggling the connector makes a difference but that doesn't always bring the switch back to life. That slight lift of the MPF does 100% of the time. I now strongly believe this area/part of the main PF is where the pressure is coming from. See attached photo Note how the factory put black electrical tape here? The Orange arrow is where I'm pretty sure I see the connecter getting "bullied" but also there's that screw under the tape that could be pressing the board itself. After this photo I put a layer of electric tape over the entire metal just in case.

I feel like overall the MPF is supposed to be mounted higher. If a pressing of the board or pushing of the connectors can cause a failure, why would DP allow the board to touch anything or be stressed out like this? My other idea is that this same metal partis pinching the wiring. I noticed last time I removed the MPF that the wire harness was very much squashed against the connection itself. There isn't enough wire length to really route it any other way though to ensure that doesn't happen. :/

Metal under MPF (resized).jpg

#502 13 days ago
Quoted from timlah79:

Yes I visually inspected the ribbon cable, its connector, its connection to the board and the underside pin soldering. Nothing looks bad. I also checked the wire harness for any looseness and continuity. Did the same for the 3 pin board connector. Again continuity from top to bottom no suspicious solder points. I almost considered resoldering but was afraid I'd damage the board.

Did that and all was well.
When the MPF is mounted and the switch has stopped registering again it "seems like" wiggling the connector makes a difference but that doesn't always bring the switch back to life. That slight lift of the MPF does 100% of the time. I now strongly believe this area/part of the main PF is where the pressure is coming from. See attached photo Note how the factory put black electrical tape here? The Orange arrow is where I'm pretty sure I see the connecter getting "bullied" but also there's that screw under the tape that could be pressing the board itself. After this photo I put a layer of electric tape over the entire metal just in case.
I feel like overall the MPF is supposed to be mounted higher. If a pressing of the board or pushing of the connectors can cause a failure, why would DP allow the board to touch anything or be stressed out like this? My other idea is that this same metal partis pinching the wiring. I noticed last time I removed the MPF that the wire harness was very much squashed against the connection itself. There isn't enough wire length to really route it any other way though to ensure that doesn't happen. :/
[quoted image]

Based on your comments are the mini playfield standoffs the right height? The mini playfield should have clearance.

#503 13 days ago

I wonder, I think the black taped screw is the heighest point.

Suppose it’s indeed something pushing the pcb it is reasonable to think as this is the heighest point this screw is pushing it. Would be interesting to see what happens if that screw is removed. That plate is fixed with four screws I believe so should be fine to remove one.

13065C26-861D-4E73-8537-81876BB08D35 (resized).jpeg
#504 13 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Based on your comments are the mini playfield standoffs the right height? The mini playfield should have clearance.

Quoted from Rensh:

I wonder, I think the black taped screw is the heighest point.
Suppose it’s indeed something pushing the pcb it is reasonable to think as this is the heighest point this screw is pushing it. Would be interesting to see what happens if that screw is removed. That plate is fixed with four screws I believe so should be fine to remove one.
[quoted image]

Rensh Is there a way to adjust the MPF standoff's height per cpr9999 's question? I see where they attach to the underside of the main PF but am not sure how to adjust them. I would like to try both removing that screw and lifting all standoff's slightly while I have the MPF off yet again.

#505 13 days ago

The standoffs are not adjustable in height. You could try a washer beneath them or between the MpF and the top of the stand-off. Only hope the screws are long enough.

If you move it higher however you have to remember that the Walter ramp is also connected to it as the wire form comes there. Guessing a washer wouldn’t make a big issue for this but tots something to think off.

I would thus start with just removing the screw.

#506 13 days ago
Quoted from Rensh:

The standoffs are not adjustable in height. You could try a washer beneath them or between the MpF and the top of the stand-off. Only hope the screws are long enough.
If you move it higher however you have to remember that the Walter ramp is also connected to it as the wire form comes there. Guessing a washer wouldn’t make a big issue for this but tots something to think off.
I would thus start with just removing the screw.

So I thought I had it fixed with removing that screw but no, as soon as I slowly put the MPF screws back in and test, the issue keeps occuring. For me, the PCB "rests" on that metal piece (which for me is now completely covered in one thin layer of tape so it's not a metal on metal thing). Is that normal? Shouldn't there be clearance so the board, it's connectors, and wiring never get pressure against anything? I don't even have extra washers to raise all 3 standoffs. Plus to your point who knows what other issues that could cause. Can you please post an underside picture of a working, already mounted assembly or look at my earlier pic to compare with one of yours? As I mentioned before even the switch harness wiring gets pinched due to that metal.

Also remember when I posted the pic of the ball stuck in the Jesus lane? That was never a wire problem, it still gets stuck. I think the metal assembly mounting itself is off. Otherwise it wouldn't put pressure on the switch connector either.

This is definitely a design issue, perhaps specific to my build.

#507 13 days ago
Quoted from timlah79:

So I thought I had it fixed with removing that screw but no, as soon as I slowly put the MPF screws back in and test, the issue keeps occuring. For me, the PCB "rests" on that metal piece (which for me is now completely covered in one thin layer of tape so it's not a metal on metal thing). Is that normal? Shouldn't there be clearance so the board, it's connectors, and wiring never get pressure against anything? I don't even have extra washers to raise all 3 standoffs. Plus to your point who knows what other issues that could cause. Can you please post an underside picture of a working, already mounted assembly or look at my earlier pic to compare with one of yours? As I mentioned before even the switch harness wiring gets pinched due to that metal.
Also remember when I posted the pic of the ball stuck in the Jesus lane? That was never a wire problem, it still gets stuck. I think the metal assembly mounting itself is off. Otherwise it wouldn't put pressure on the switch connector either.
This is definitely a design issue, perhaps specific to my build.

Assuming these washers are installed on the bottom of your standoffs (if I remember right there are at least 3 standoffs).

001B390C-8702-4710-AEBB-931A2BC9BC79 (resized).jpeg
#508 13 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Assuming these washers are installed on the bottom of your standoffs (if I remember right there are at least 3 standoffs).[quoted image]

Yes all are installed there and under the playfield where the locking nuts attach. All 3 of them have both.

I also see from your photo that you don't even have a screw or hole on the opposite side of that metal guard in question or it's just not in the photo? Do you only have 2 screws+holes on the right side of yours? Mine has all 4. And I noticed that the one under the tape on mine that I removed just now is a flathead whereas all of the other 3 is a round head.

#509 13 days ago
Quoted from timlah79:

Yes all are installed there and under the playfield where the locking nuts attach. All 3 of them have both.
I also see from your photo that you don't even have a screw or hole on the opposite side of that metal guard in question or it's just not in the photo? Do you only have 2 screws+holes on the right side of yours? Mine has all 4. And I noticed that the one under the tape on mine that I removed just now is a flathead whereas all of the other 3 is a round head.

FYI that is a close up picture of Rens picture for illustration.

#510 13 days ago
Quoted from timlah79:

So I thought I had it fixed with removing that screw but no, as soon as I slowly put the MPF screws back in and test, the issue keeps occuring. For me, the PCB "rests" on that metal piece (which for me is now completely covered in one thin layer of tape so it's not a metal on metal thing). Is that normal? Shouldn't there be clearance so the board, it's connectors, and wiring never get pressure against anything? I don't even have extra washers to raise all 3 standoffs. Plus to your point who knows what other issues that could cause. Can you please post an underside picture of a working, already mounted assembly or look at my earlier pic to compare with one of yours? As I mentioned before even the switch harness wiring gets pinched due to that metal.
Also remember when I posted the pic of the ball stuck in the Jesus lane? That was never a wire problem, it still gets stuck. I think the metal assembly mounting itself is off. Otherwise it wouldn't put pressure on the switch connector either.
This is definitely a design issue, perhaps specific to my build.

Regardless of everything I've pinpointed above, in the end a) the PCB needs to be replaced in full and b) someone needs to provide a solution to keep a new one from failing due to pressure or contact. I am still waiting for DP to ship the PCB I asked for multiple days ago.

I can hook everything up as in the the attached photo with the MPF laid down. It's not the connector. It's the inner workings of the PCB that for some reason are incredibly sensitive to "bending." I can hold the connector in place then just ever so slightly push on the areas I've arrowed and the switch stops registering. Do some lifting and it registers again.

PXL_20210501_010633123~2 (resized).jpg
#511 13 days ago
Quoted from timlah79:

Regardless of everything I've pinpointed above, in the end a) the PCB needs to be replaced in full and b) someone needs to provide a solution to keep a new one from failing due to pressure or contact. I am still waiting for DP to ship the PCB I asked for multiple days ago.
I can hook everything up as in the the attached photo with the MPF laid down. It's not the connector. It's the inner workings of the PCB that for some reason are incredibly sensitive to "bending." I can hold the connector in place then just ever so slightly push on the areas I've arrowed and the switch stops registering. Do some lifting and it registers again.
[quoted image]

Have you tried reflowing the solder joints along all points for this switch circuit (connector pins, resistors etc along this path)? Even if they look good, I've had joints that were intermittent. If it's not the switch or the connector itself, it feels a lot like a solder joint or a possible crack in one of the lines traveling along the board. You can test for cracks with a jumper wire and trying your "flex test" again on the board. Good luck with the hunt!

#512 13 days ago
Quoted from mac2444:

Have you tried reflowing the solder joints along all points for this switch circuit (connector pins, resistors etc along this path)? Even if they look good, I've had joints that were intermittent. If it's not the switch or the connector itself, it feels a lot like a solder joint or a possible crack in one of the lines traveling along the board. You can test for cracks with a jumper wire and trying your "flex test" again on the board. Good luck with the hunt!

Right - as I described above- pull the board and look at the solder joints of the connectors. Just reflow them with solder and see what happens.

Nothing to lose here.

#513 13 days ago
Quoted from mac2444:

Have you tried reflowing the solder joints along all points for this switch circuit (connector pins, resistors etc along this path)? Even if they look good, I've had joints that were intermittent. If it's not the switch or the connector itself, it feels a lot like a solder joint or a possible crack in one of the lines traveling along the board. You can test for cracks with a jumper wire and trying your "flex test" again on the board. Good luck with the hunt!

Quoted from cpr9999:

Right - as I described above- pull the board and look at the solder joints of the connectors. Just reflow them with solder and see what happens.
Nothing to lose here.

I reluctantly but carefully resoldered the switch connector's 3 solder points just now. I thought Id seen improvement all the way through testing as I again pieced everything back together. But nope. Back to square one as soon as everything was back in place. I even ensured this time that the wires weren't getting pinched upon remount of the MPF. I can now only get the switch to trigger by reaching under and pushing/pulling just like before. But even when I get it registering, if I lightly knock on the MPF it goes out again. The connector is not coming loose, it is something sensitive with the board.. I'm at a loss until DP finally sends a new PCB and harnesses. I can't take this thing off and on anymore.

Here's a pic of the solder joints if it helps. Nothing looks wrong to me. This is just before I applied new solder to the top problem switch connector. If you think you see a gap anywhere, I've already filled it since.

PXL_20210428_230028651 (resized).jpg
#514 13 days ago
Quoted from timlah79:

I reluctantly but carefully resoldered the switch connector's 3 solder points just now. I thought Id seen improvement all the way through testing as I again pieced everything back together. But nope. Back to square one as soon as everything was back in place. I even ensured this time that the wires weren't getting pinched upon remount of the MPF. I can now only get the switch to trigger by reaching under and pushing/pulling just like before. But even when I get it registering, if I lightly knock on the MPF it goes out again. The connector is not coming loose, it is something sensitive with the board.. I'm at a loss until DP finally sends a new PCB and harnesses. I can't take this thing off and on anymore.
Here's a pic of the solder joints if it helps. Nothing looks wrong to me. This is just before I applied new solder to the top problem switch connector. If you think you see a gap anywhere, I've already filled it since.[quoted image]

Well, at least you know one more thing that isn't the problem? If you do decide to pull it back apart, next step for me would be to grab a multimeter and follow the tracks along the board from the connector. Check between each pin of the connector and the next piece along its path on the board while flexing it and see if continuity is lost. If they look good, move further along the board to the next soldered in part and check there. You should be able to keep moving along the board till you find one section that is coming in and out when you are bending it and that will be your problem spot. Then it's just a resolder of the bad joint or add a little jumper wire across the bad segment if it's a crack in the trace itself.

Waiting on the new board sounds a lot easier though, some of us just have a lot of time off these days, haha!

#515 13 days ago
Quoted from timlah79:

I reluctantly but carefully resoldered the switch connector's 3 solder points just now. I thought Id seen improvement all the way through testing as I again pieced everything back together. But nope. Back to square one as soon as everything was back in place. I even ensured this time that the wires weren't getting pinched upon remount of the MPF. I can now only get the switch to trigger by reaching under and pushing/pulling just like before. But even when I get it registering, if I lightly knock on the MPF it goes out again. The connector is not coming loose, it is something sensitive with the board.. I'm at a loss until DP finally sends a new PCB and harnesses. I can't take this thing off and on anymore.
Here's a pic of the solder joints if it helps. Nothing looks wrong to me. This is just before I applied new solder to the top problem switch connector. If you think you see a gap anywhere, I've already filled it since.[quoted image]

Assuming those switches go out the main 20 pin ribbon cable connector. Look inside for any bent pins. Or look at ribbon cable.

Weird part is when you push on board it works - points to board. And solder joint - maybe 20 pin connector solder joint issue?

#516 12 days ago
Quoted from mac2444:

Well, at least you know one more thing that isn't the problem? If you do decide to pull it back apart, next step for me would be to grab a multimeter and follow the tracks along the board from the connector. Check between each pin of the connector and the next piece along its path on the board while flexing it and see if continuity is lost. If they look good, move further along the board to the next soldered in part and check there. You should be able to keep moving along the board till you find one section that is coming in and out when you are bending it and that will be your problem spot. Then it's just a resolder of the bad joint or add a little jumper wire across the bad segment if it's a crack in the trace itself.
Waiting on the new board sounds a lot easier though, some of us just have a lot of time off these days, haha!

Quoted from cpr9999:

Assuming those switches go out the main 20 pin ribbon cable connector. Look inside for any bent pins. Or look at ribbon cable.
Weird part is when you push on board it works - points to board. And solder joint - maybe 20 pin connector solder joint issue?

UPDATE 4PM PDT: I took mac2444 's advice and soldered in a wire between 1 and 2. That was painful to say the least. There's barely a pinhead of metal to work with on number 2 and it's almost married to the point next to it. After my first attempt, I could tell the wire was barely attached. And of course upon screwing the PCB back onto the MPF it popped off. I gave it one last ditch attempt and while it's a hack job, I think it isn't going anywhere now. I tested continuity many times at each step, including ensuring I hadn't messed up any other switch's tracelines. If you want a pic, then PM me. I'm not going to post it here because it's as hacky as ever. I protected the wire with electrical tape for good measure. Now everything is back together yet again, so I will continue to test.
There is no visible defect in any traceline. My guess is that its fault must be hiding under the white plastic connector that holds the pins in place but I don't know how to remove that without causing other issues.

What sucks is in the process my upper flipper assembly is now broken (since you have to remove it each time you need to remove the MPF), I will send questions about that in a new post.

TomDK - My PCB was broken from the start (I only received the game NIB 2 weeks ago). And yes I can't believe I'm the only one who's faced this problem. I'm still waiting for DP to ship me a new PCB under warranty. For now I hope my fix holds up.

PREVIOUS POST:
Alright I've almost got the smoking gun I think. But how do I fix / jump this without ruining the board? Can I literally solder a wire on the bottom at points 1 and 2 to "connect" them? Please reference attached photos with numbering.

1 = The problem pin. There is continuity from the pin itself to its solder joint on the underside.

The issue: **From 1 to 2 there is NO continuity** but there should be. I've traced the whole intended path from top to bottom.

The rest of the way down to the underside solder of the connector pin has continuity. Meaning 2 to 3, 3 to 4 both have continuity.
I see no visible cracks in the tracelines. I will say that as you can see in the photo the finish on the underside has gotten a little warped due to my previous attempts to reflow the 3 pins on the bad connector. Hopefully I didn't make things worse. Maybe I need to lower the temp of my soldering iron when doing this?

More info FYI: There are only two active pins on this connector, number 1 and the one in the middle. The one in the middle's entire traceline has continuity at each point so it is not an issue. The connector next to it that doesn't have any issues, I also traced that as a baseline for my expectations. It's 1-2-3-4 points have continuity all the way down.

BOTTOM:
MPF PCB Tracing (resized).png

TOP:
MPF PCB Tracing TOP (resized).png

#517 12 days ago
Quoted from timlah79:

Alright I've almost got the smoking gun I think. But how do I fix / jump this without ruining the board? Can I literally solder a wire on the bottom at points 1 and 2 to "connect" them? Please reference attached photos with numbering.
1 = The problem pin. There is continuity from the pin itself to its solder joint on the underside.
The issue: **From 1 to 2 there is NO continuity** but there should be. I've traced the whole intended path from top to bottom.
The rest of the way down to the underside solder of the connector pin has continuity. Meaning 2 to 3, 3 to 4 both have continuity.
There are only two active pins on this connector, number 1 and the one in the middle. The one in the middle's entire traceline has continuity at each point so it is not an issue.
BOTTOM:
[quoted image]
TOP:
[quoted image]

Feels great to finally find an issue like that, right?! So, test it by holding a piece of wire there first before soldering to be sure this is your fix. If it is, then yes, carefully solder the wire from #1 to #2 and you should be good to go. Fingers crossed

#518 12 days ago

...if you want to get really fancy, you can try and find the crack along that trace in the board, scratch off the green covering and then add a tiny bit of solder to fix it.....without cooking the board too much. A wire will look ghetto but it is the much easier fix.

#519 12 days ago

You can fix it and if you did not damage it ask your dealer for warranty and a new pcb for the future.
Nobody else with this problem ? What might happened to your pcb ?
However .. great that you find the failure !

#521 12 days ago

Need help sourcing upper flipper parts. The upper flipper assembly is busted from my constant removal and reconnecting while troubleshooting my Right Ramp Made switch and PCB board issue (you have to take the upper flipper out to remove the MPF). The pin that holds the "pawl" has broken in that it just spins at the bottom of the shaft. I tried a different similar screw that I have but it won't hold the flipper in place with enough strength. So the game really isn't playable until I get that replaced. I'll try these steps and report back.

The flipper parts at least I may be able to order from the U.S. and receive next week. Does anyone know which exact type of "pawl" and assembly parts are used here? Looks like a flavor of Williams/Bally that Pinball Life has? Something on this page https://www.pinballlife.com/plungers-cranks-and-pawls.html or one of these kits? https://www.pinballlife.com/flipper-rebuild-kits.html

TBL Pawl (resized).jpg
TBL Pawl Screw (resized).jpg

#523 11 days ago

So all switches in the MPF have continued to work since the PCB fix so that's good. I also have the MPF upper flipper working with a new screw as I wait for the replacement parts.

However just today I've now faced two new game frozen / freezing issues, unrelated to anything I've mentioned prior. I have added both of these to the bug list spreadsheet:

1) Just now after I would say maybe 15 games b/t yesterday and today, this game only being the 3rd since I powered the machine on today), the game locked up / froze entirely, the screen went black, and the majority but not all PF LEDs stayed statically lit (photo attached). I had just triggered car mode in the MPF, but then the ball dropped down the wire ramp. I had ZERO ready so I went for the saucer with the right flipper. When I hit it, the freeze occurred.

I just powered the machine off, waited about 30 seconds and powered it back on. The game then loaded as expected and popped the ball out of the saucer. There was a test issue alert but as soon as I went to the menu nothing was there (I've seen the test issue alert and vanish thing before but I think it's normal when there's a ball in the playfield, not yet in the trough?).

With my description, has anyone else witnessed this?

This description from a while ago sounds like it could be the exact same issue as mine but I didn't see a reply about root cause or resolution: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/a-lotta-ins-a-lotta-outs-tbl-maintenance-thread/page/11#post-6257532

When the game locks / freezes like this is it likely a software bug/glitch or could something physical or electrical be going bad? I will say that the game did lock up in a similar fashion one other time, literally the day I got it about 2.5 weeks ago (so before all the troubleshooting and stuff that I've been posting about recently). I didn't think much of it at the time but since it's happened again I am getting worried.

If it helps to know where I was at in progression: I was on my 2nd ball with 4 of 5 characters completed, completed a char multiball, the normal multiball, one rug mode, a car mode, a couple bowling games. I'll keep playing and see if this happens again. Appreciate any insight.

2) During Rug Mode - Ransom Note, the game froze again in a different way. This time the ball was somewhere I'm not sure. But in any case it stayed on the rug mode accomplishments screen and never returned nor even tried to find the ball. I had to power off and back on again. This was probably my 10th play today. Is this a software or hardware issue? Video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ve_47XIZm2W1mGKAEAlQVWSH0j-DJFsP/view?usp=sharing
I also got "vanishing" test alerts when this happened, just like number 1.
See pic of 1 and video of 2 below.

Game Freeze Issue 1:
TBL Locked Up (resized).jpg

Game Freeze Issue 2 (link to video): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ve_47XIZm2W1mGKAEAlQVWSH0j-DJFsP/view?usp=sharing
Photo:
TBL Frozen During Rug Mode Ransom Note Pic (resized).jpg

#524 11 days ago

When it comes to freezing I typ ask to check the following:

1) make sure both the usb cables are connected to the USB ports on the right side of the PC. That’s the USB2 section of the PC. If they are already on the right you can always try on the left (which is usb3) but recommend is right side.
2) make sure there are no stuck switches
3) replace the cable running from PC to Proc. (UsbA to usbB, like 2.5-3 meter long). Don’t use an Alibaba quality ….

Rel 055 gives also the possibility to export a log file in the software menu. This can give a further clue to what happened. If you see problems to initialize Proc items 1 and 3 should get extra attention.

If a ball is on the playfield when booting its normal to see an error message which indeed dissapears as soon as you open the testmenu.

#525 10 days ago
Quoted from Rensh:

When it comes to freezing I typ ask to check the following:
1) make sure both the usb cables are connected to the USB ports on the right side of the PC. That’s the USB2 section of the PC. If they are already on the right you can always try on the left (which is usb3) but recommend is right side.
2) make sure there are no stuck switches
3) replace the cable running from PC to Proc. (UsbA to usbB, like 2.5-3 meter long). Don’t use an Alibaba quality ….
Rel 055 gives also the possibility to export a log file in the software menu. This can give a further clue to what happened. If you see problems to initialize Proc items 1 and 3 should get extra attention.
If a ball is on the playfield when booting its normal to see an error message which indeed dissapears as soon as you open the testmenu.

Rensh After 3 plays today the game froze again. This time it happened early on when I hit the Jesus ramp. The screen went black and the game locked up like I mentioned before. I just looked at all of the USB connections you mentioned. Everything is as secure as it has been. No switches are stuck. I've only owned this machine for 2 weeks, so why would you recommend I swap USB ports and replace cables? Not to mention this is an intermittent issue. How exactly do I "export a log file in the software menu"? I have no idea what you mean by "If you see problems to initialize Proc items 1 and 3 should get extra attention." Please clarify...

#526 10 days ago

In the originals the PROC to MPF connector is janky on the power pins (larger gauge ones on the corner). They later sent out some zip ties to sort of help but if that hasn't been further upgraded in new games then would look at that for intermittent issues.

#527 9 days ago

I had issues consistently with my game locking up early on. After upgrading to code .55 seemed to go away but may be coincidental as I've been raising and lowering the pf a lot to adjust my own right ramp upper switch and try to sort out the right flipper issue I'm having.

#528 7 days ago

Hi all
My TBL is causing me an ulcer. It's a lemon. Has never played without issues. Installed code .55 and it seemed to improve a bit for a while. Remaining problems:

- After booting, the test report says "3 issues". I push the test button in the door to see what the issues are, but the test button itself does not respond. So it's impossible to see what the issues are. After turning off the game again and rebooting, it reports 1 issue: Stuck Rug mode switch. I clear the switch, then it works again. This kind of problem is not reproducable, it just seems to happen randomly.

- After a normal ball drain, the game randomly goes into ball search mode, doesn't find the ball and stops giving balls.

- The game seems to have mechanical issues putting a ball into the shooter lane. It hardly ever works at the first try so the coil plunger keeps repeatedly trying to kick a ball up and after a while it finally manages to do so. Sometimes it stops trying and the game freezes.

- Sometimes after a ball drain it just freezes up. I checked the ball trough plugs and optos, no issues reported there.

- It doesn't play all the song clips. Never heard "the man in me" by Bob Dylan for example. Yesterday I wanted to take a video of a 4 player game, 5 balls each, to demonstrate how it only plays the same 4 song clips over and over. I couldn't finish the video because the game froze up again mid play, no more ball kicked up into the shooter lane.

What could the issue be? Compromised motherboard? I'm not a computer tech and am more familiar with vintage games.
Thanks for any help
Kaspar

#529 7 days ago
Quoted from lagoontrap:

Hi all
My TBL is causing me an ulcer. It's a lemon. Has never played without issues. Installed code .55 and it seemed to improve a bit for a while. Remaining problems:
- After booting, the test report says "3 issues". I push the test button in the door to see what the issues are, but the test button itself does not respond. So it's impossible to see what the issues are. After turning off the game again and rebooting, it reports 1 issue: Stuck Rug mode switch. I clear the switch, then it works again. This kind of problem is not reproducable, it just seems to happen randomly.
- After a normal ball drain, the game randomly goes into ball search mode, doesn't find the ball and stops giving balls.
- The game seems to have mechanical issues putting a ball into the shooter lane. It hardly ever works at the first try so the coil plunger keeps repeatedly trying to kick a ball up and after a while it finally manages to do so. Sometimes it stops trying and the game freezes.
- Sometimes after a ball drain it just freezes up. I checked the ball trough plugs and optos, no issues reported there.
- It doesn't play all the song clips. Never heard "the man in me" by Bob Dylan for example. Yesterday I wanted to take a video of a 4 player game, 5 balls each, to demonstrate how it only plays the same 4 song clips over and over. I couldn't finish the video because the game froze up again mid play, no more ball kicked up into the shooter lane.
What could the issue be? Compromised motherboard? I'm not a computer tech and am more familiar with vintage games.
Thanks for any help
Kaspar

Hi,

Firstly, I'd send this all to Rens via email at: support@dutchpinball.com

The game does not have licensed music from the movie so there is no Dylan or any other tracks off the soundtrack. There is a hack to add these but it's pretty complicated and can mess up your hard drive if you aren't a solid programmer. There are probably also copyright issues.

Some of these may just be switch issues but I'd be tempted to reinstall the .55 code. In the menu you can roll back to .54 and see if this changes any of your issues as well, that would surely help the troubleshooting.

The coil that sends the ball into the shooter lane may not be hitting the ball in the center and hence it doesn't have the power it should. Watch it through the coin door and see if this is the case. You can try and align this better to get a clean launch.

There does sound like an issue with the ball trough switches but I'd try the software chance first to be sure.

#530 6 days ago

I am working on a FAQ regarding the freezing issues switches none responsive document with some tips and tricks to try out. Made a concept which is now with Barry to read it over. Hope to be able to post it tomorrow, even it its just a concept.

The songs is something I cant help you with. Not all the songs of the movie are in it is all I can say. But if you own the songs on a personal CD, eg thus have the license to use them, and know you way around a PC a little .....

A switch issue is also reported if you turn the game off with a ball in a VUK for instance. After booting the VUK is cleared and error dissapears. However, this doesnt explain why you cant enter the testmenu. This one puzzles me.

After a ball drain freezing, do you mean the the drained ball is not seen or the whole TBL freezes? Can you still go into testmenu?

In regard to shooterlane follow Mac2444 idea.

#531 6 days ago

Hi mac2444 and Rensh

Thanks for the tips and feedback. Well, then the sound clips issue is solved. I could have sworn having seen an online video somewhere of the TBL game being played with a whole bunch of different music in the background, among it the Dylan song. Anyway, so I can tick off that one.
I'll check on the switch issues like mac2444 suggests.
Rensh: What's a VUK?
"After a ball drain freezing": I mean the game keeps playing the music etc. The next ball just isn't kicked back up into the shooter lane, the flipper buttons don't work. It's not that the game stops completely or the screen goes black. Maybe a trough switch/opto issue, I'll look into it.
Another question: The kickout guide where the ball comes up into the shooter lane has an extendable pullout metal flap that just sits passively in there. What's that for?
Thanks

Kaspar

#532 6 days ago

Vertical Up Kicker .. the think popping the ball to the MPF.
On the left this is the Saucer.

Check on the coindoor switches if a cable is interrupted .. are all switches in the coindoor dead ? Can lower/raise the sound volume ?

#533 6 days ago
Quoted from lagoontrap:

Hi mac2444 and Rensh
Thanks for the tips and feedback. Well, then the sound clips issue is solved. I could have sworn having seen an online video somewhere of the TBL game being played with a whole bunch of different music in the background, among it the Dylan song. Anyway, so I can tick off that one.
I'll check on the switch issues like mac2444 suggests.
Rensh: What's a VUK?
"After a ball drain freezing": I mean the game keeps playing the music etc. The next ball just isn't kicked back up into the shooter lane, the flipper buttons don't work. It's not that the game stops completely or the screen goes black. Maybe a trough switch/opto issue, I'll look into it.
Another question: The kickout guide where the ball comes up into the shooter lane has an extendable pullout metal flap that just sits passively in there. What's that for?
Thanks
Kaspar

Check these ribbon cables- did they come out?

55E7D25E-F711-470B-A286-E05B1577A652 (resized).jpeg
#534 6 days ago
Quoted from lagoontrap:

Another question: The kickout guide where the ball comes up into the shooter lane has an extendable pullout metal flap that just sits passively in there. What's that for?

Thanks
Kaspar

You can manually move it upwards to keep the balls in the ball trough when you set the playfield in upwards position. I do reccomend however to remove the balls if you set playfield upright.

#535 5 days ago

It’s still ‘just’ a concept but I promised to share it this weekend so you can see my work in progress on the feeezing etc FAQ at

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k0snmzydewcwg7u/Freezes%20hangups%20switches%20not%20responsive%20issues%20FAQ.pdf?dl=0

If you have any questions let me know.

#536 5 days ago

I'm on 0.55 and have lost music a couple of times after a rug mode began. Music returned on next ball.
The last rug mode was "The Ringer," but still not sure how it is happening. It could be when a car and rug mode are both active, but again, not sure the root cause. This would occasionally happen with the older firmware.

I also had an instance this week where I entered a rug mode, but the ball stay trapped under rug, while the playfield stayed dark. I had to manually tilt the game to give up the ball. This fixed the issue.

20210503_215140 (resized).jpg
#537 5 days ago
Quoted from highdef:

I'm on 0.55 and have lost music a couple of times after a rug mode began. Music returned on next ball.
The last rug mode was "The Ringer," but still not sure how it is happening. It could be when a car and rug mode are both active, but again, not sure the root cause. This would occasionally happen with the older firmware.
I also had an instance this week where I entered a rug mode, but the ball stay trapped under rug, while the playfield stayed dark. I had to manually tilt the game to give up the ball. This fixed the issue.
[quoted image]

The music bug is a known and annoying one. Programmer is still puzzled what is causing this.

Than the rugmode issue. Could it be the ball was not seen to have entered the rug? Did the rug close?

#538 4 days ago
Quoted from Rensh:

The music bug is a known and annoying one. Programmer is still puzzled what is causing this.
Than the rugmode issue. Could it be the ball was not seen to have entered the rug? Did the rug close?

Hi Rens. Yes, the rug closed. So strange. It has only happened once. I will try capturing log info next time.

As far as music bug, it has only happened 3 or so times. I wonder if it has to do with multiple modes running simultaneously. Not the end of the world since you can still play out the ball.

#539 3 days ago

Does anyone have this intermittent right speaker hiss and sizzle? Right speaker only. It seems to show up randomly after the game has been powered up for a little while. If I power off and back on it goes away (until it returns again within an hour or so of being powered back up). It's been suggested that its a wrong wiring issue or a cabling issue which it is not. If it were, it wouldn't be intermittent nor just go away after power off/back on. I just happened to be able to take a decent video of it happening today while in sound settings and just testing the launch audio. If music were playing it would be constant. In this example you can hear the hiss/sizzle when the sound effect plays then trails off. Note this was an issue right out of the box NIB just a few weeks ago, before the speaker lights you see in the video were installed. I fear that its a board/capacitor problem. Appreciate any advice or other things to check.

#540 3 days ago

Now to my Jesus lane / VUK issues. I get both rejects often when its shot at any given velocity and the ball stuck when it's a lightly hit shot up the lane. Are these wires supposed to be lead through here? I think they are from the MPF PCB since I see no lead from the main PF to them/a way to move them. As you may have seen from my earlier MPF problems posts I am not taking the MPF off again until I receive a new PCB. If these wires do not belong being lead here, that would very much help to know. What's crazy if it is the wires and not some defect with the metal parts of the assembly, you'd think the ball finder plus nudging and such would drop it down to the left. But it doesn't. When it gets stuck I can even see the ball finder jumping the ball ever so slightly. Also I can tip the machine in any direction or nudge it and the ball still will not come loose. It has to be manually removed by way of my magnet tool.

The offending wires are for 2 of the MPF PCB switches. They are routed in a way that they become obstacles in the Jesus lane. The stress put on them also puts tension on their connectors. There's not enough wire length to route them behind this part pictured below. They are wedged...

Can someone take a pic like what I have to show whether or not the wiring is supposed to be here or instead behind everything?

PXL_20210511_034303408~3 (resized).jpg

Regardless, I'm willing to bet it's not the wiring as much as it's really sitting there with no way to budge because of the metal guide that Rensh recommends removing. This is from his earlier post about that. I'm guessing that the red circle I added is where the ball has settled when stuck:

Rensh VUK pic with circle (resized).jpg

BALL STUCK:
VUK Ball stuck (resized).jpg

WIRING JUST AFTER PULLING BALL OUT:
VUK wires right after ball removed (resized).jpg

WIRING AFTER TRYING TO PULL IT BACK (not much difference since there's little to no leeway here to pull them back):
VUK Wires pushed back (resized).jpg

#541 3 days ago

Here you have pictures from new built.

Clearly the wires are obstructing the ball path and need to be closer to the botttom of the MPf. You could try carefully pulling the wires from the top for which you only need to remove the bowling roof.

The removal of the metal part is not for the wires. That’s for users to try who get rejects because the ball is bouncing back from the end back in the Jesus lane.

86C819DF-8DA5-4884-9485-6E7F44FB1CC2 (resized).jpegA91A34CD-58BA-49D4-96D4-1BBB7CF9DA32 (resized).jpeg
#542 3 days ago

Rensh I now have yet another new problem. All of a sudden NONE of the stepper motors are functioning: Rug, Bowling, or Car . For all 3, *nothing* happens in any of the 3 respective stepper motor tests (yes, with the 48V switch enabled) and all 3 *don't move at all* during gameplay. The rug doesn't even do its normal calibration movement when the game starts. During gameplay shots are not registered either, however the rug hit, car hit, and bowling switches *do* register in the switch test. For bowling, I can get bowling to start, the game places the ball in the arm but the arm does not even try to rotate L/R. There are no issue alerts in the menu except for the EOS Bowling Left switch stuck but that's because it's currently all the way to the left. I can manually move it to make that alert disappear. I hope this indicates that some wiring has simply gone loose but I don't see anything disconnected. Can you please advise areas to check and if you need pictures of anything specific? Thank you.

#543 3 days ago
Quoted from timlah79:

Rensh I now have yet another new problem. All of a sudden NONE of the stepper motors are functioning: Rug, Bowling, or Car . For all 3, *nothing* happens in any of the 3 respective stepper motor tests (yes, with the 48V switch enabled) and all 3 *don't move at all* during gameplay. The rug doesn't even do its normal calibration movement when the game starts. During gameplay shots are not registered either, however the rug hit, car hit, and bowling switches *do* register in the switch test. For bowling, I can get bowling to start, the game places the ball in the arm but the arm does not even try to rotate L/R. There are no issue alerts in the menu except for the EOS Bowling Left switch stuck but that's because it's currently all the way to the left. I can manually move it to make that alert disappear. I hope this indicates that some wiring has simply gone loose but I don't see anything disconnected. Can you please advise areas to check and if you need pictures of anything specific? Thank you.

Sorry to read this.

I am wondering if the 12V to the stepper motor fuse F06 is failing. Can you check this fuse pls under the playfield?

D9B653A8-D7F1-4169-9A52-7A1C374665D4 (resized).jpeg
#544 3 days ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Sorry to read this.
I am wondering if the 12V to the stepper motor fuse F06 is failing. Can you check this fuse pls under the playfield?
[quoted image]

YUP! Right before I read your reply I noticed F06 has blown. I will have to order some new fuses. Any idea why this would have happened? Thank you so much! I'll report back.

#545 2 days ago
Quoted from timlah79:

YUP! Right before I read your reply I noticed F06 has blown. I will have to order some new fuses. Any idea why this would have happened? Thank you so much! I'll report back.

First step is to replace the fuse. Than see if it blows again. Because yes, why did it happen? Sometimes fuses themselves also fail but usually there is a cause.

Suppose it blows again a next step could be to unplug all three steppermotor and connect one by one to see which steppermotor blows the fuse.

But again, start with replacing the fuse. You could try to swap it with a similar rated fuse like F10 if you wanna know fast. It will disable the 5V to the MPF but for a test this should be fine.

#546 2 days ago

Now to my Jesus lane / VUK issues. I get both rejects often when its shot at any given velocity and the ball stuck when it's a lightly hit shot up the lane. Are these wires supposed to be lead through here? I think they are from the MPF PCB since I see no lead from the main PF to them/a way to move them. As you may have seen from my earlier MPF problems posts I am not taking the MPF off again until I receive a new PCB. If these wires do not belong being lead here, that would very much help to know. What's crazy if it is the wires and not some defect with the metal parts of the assembly, you'd think the ball finder plus nudging and such would drop it down to the left. But it doesn't. When it gets stuck I can even see the ball finder jumping the ball ever so slightly. Also I can tip the machine in any direction or nudge it and the ball still will not come loose. It has to be manually removed by way of my magnet tool.

Regardless, I'm willing to bet it's not the wiring as much as it's really sitting there with no way to budge because of the metal guide that Rensh recommends removing. This is from his earlier post about that. I'm guessing that the red circle I added is where the ball has settled when stuck:
[quoted image]
BALL STUCK:

I think you are right that it is sitting on that removable plate at the end of the Jesus ramp. Looks like there is just enough gap to hold the ball if it's at the right speed. If you bend the plate a little bit this will be resolved. I'd even give it a little slope back towards the VUK to help make the shots count instead of coming back down

#547 2 days ago

So after all the random issues that some of these games have as each one is hand built and unique I find it more and more obnoxious how the most recent and current flippers are using the list of “improved parts” for the newer machines as some sort of sales pitch advantage as though it makes the game worth more.

#548 2 days ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Here you have pictures from new built.
Clearly the wires are obstructing the ball path and need to be closer to the botttom of the MPf. You could try carefully pulling the wires from the top for which you only need to remove the bowling roof.
The removal of the metal part is not for the wires. That’s for users to try who get rejects because the ball is bouncing back from the end back in the Jesus lane.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Rensh I'm sorry but I have to disagree. From all I've troubleshot, the wires + the metal part can create this ball stuck issue and likely the rejects issue as well. It's not one or the other. There is no extra length in the wires to put them in any other position, so they will *always* obstruct the ball path. Mine are already as close to the bottom of the MPF as possible. Removal of the metal piece just reduces the chance that the ball will get stuck when the wires are in play because doing so gives more room for the ball to drop. IMO, this is clearly a design problem. The MPF PCB wires both shown in my pics and yours lead in front of that metal square piece on the MPF (which is the stepper motor I assume?). This leaves them not only as a potential catch for the ball in the Jesus lane but also they get smashed against the main PF metal parts, causing crimping, indents in the rubber of them, and stress on the MPF PCB connectors (which I now believe is a likely cause of the break in the PCB trace I had initially, right where the pins connect to it). No matter what, they also get hit by the ball anytime you make the Jesus lane. Why are the wires not longer and lead behind all of these parts, perhaps through some wooden recess in the rear of the MPF in order to prevent all of the resulting issues their current placement causes?

#549 2 days ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

So after all the random issues that some of these games have as each one is hand built and unique I find it more and more obnoxious how the most recent and current flippers are using the list of “improved parts” for the newer machines as some sort of sales pitch advantage as though it makes the game worth more.

There is one way to avvoid this.
Wait with an purchase until the market is "feet". Than buy a game and you will have all impoved parts.
*IF* you buy a brand new car it will be the same: For important security callbacks you have to go to the garage and they will update with parts. All other is supported with a warranty. After the warranty it is your problem. Some years later a facelift shows up with, hopefully, all bugs sorted out.
Why should it be other on a pinball machine ?

You buy what actiual is the "state of art". Improvements will be supported by the manufacturer .. or not.
I think this is quite normal and DP is, my experiences, more accomodating that other manufacturers on the market.

#550 2 days ago
Quoted from timlah79:

Rensh I'm sorry but I have to disagree. From all I've troubleshot, the wires + the metal part can create this ball stuck issue and likely the rejects issue as well. It's not one or the other. There is no extra length in the wires to put them in any other position, so they will *always* obstruct the ball path. Mine are already as close to the bottom of the MPF as possible. Removal of the metal piece just reduces the chance that the ball will get stuck when the wires are in play because doing so gives more room for the ball to drop. IMO, this is clearly a design problem. The MPF PCB wires both shown in my pics and yours lead in front of that metal square piece on the MPF (which is the stepper motor I assume?). This leaves them not only as a potential catch for the ball in the Jesus lane but also they get smashed against the main PF metal parts, causing crimping, indents in the rubber of them, and stress on the MPF PCB connectors (which I now believe is a likely cause of the break in the PCB trace I had initially, right where the pins connect to it). No matter what, they also get hit by the ball anytime you make the Jesus lane. Why are the wires not longer and lead behind all of these parts, perhaps through some wooden recess in the rear of the MPF in order to prevent all of the resulting issues their current placement causes?

Tim, I can't see it being the wires. I haven't heard of anyone else having an issue with them at all. I think it's pretty unlikely that you have the only machine where these wires are a problem even with you having taking the mpf on and off so many times. If you really think there is an issue there just hold them tight to the board with some non-conductive tape and se if anything changes.

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