(Topic ID: 62109)

A lot of "price drops" lately

By ovfdfireman

10 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 124 posts
  • 71 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 years ago by Carl_694
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#51 10 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

newbies are starting to wise up and think before they buy. We had a big rush of brand new people the past year and a half to 2 years. Think many are not being compulsive buyers and think before they buy.

Quoted from BoJo:

A lot of them overpaid too and find out the hard way when they go to sale the machine and don't get anything close to what they paid.

B-I-N-G-O with these two comments...

The last two years have been weird for a few reasons. The "talk" of the place has moved mostly over to these forums from RGP, and the average collector on these forums has been into collecting for a much shorter time than the majority of the people on RGP. A considerable amount of these new collectors do not know how to repair their own machines and believe that every dollar that they put into a machine should pay back twice as much. I remember a thread a year or two ago where people were angry because they bought a new Stern and the resale market on it had dropped. The consensus seemed to be that Stern was failing as a business because after you opened and played the game for a while, only a few increased in price.

The people that jumped in drove the prices up to the point that the majority of collectors can't afford as much as people who started even five years ago, and many of those people overpaid and are now trying to sell and having to either decide to take a hit on their pricing or hold their game waiting for the right buyer. On top of that, we now have two companies regularly adding more titles to the top end.

I think that prices have probably stabilized until those people that purchased either decide they are willing to take a hit on their purchase price, or until something else happens to really drive prices up again.

#52 10 years ago

I think all of the things mentioned are going on but I also feel that given all the new games recently out and the new ones coming out, people will spend on the new ones. I predict we will see far less interest in the B/W from the 90s. I know that is sacrilegious to say but frankly those titles seem pretty shallow compared to the games of today. I have some of the top titles from that era and am very happy playing my deeper much more challenging Sterns. It should not be a surprise to any of us as the same programmers and designers are doing the work and keep improving. Also, starting with Iron Man is a return to the short ball time and addicting game play which was missing from pinball for a long time.

#53 10 years ago

I think all of the things mentioned are going on but I also feel that given all the new games recently out and the new ones coming out, people will spend on the new ones. I predict we will see far less interest in the B/W from the 90s. I know that is sacrilegious to say but frankly those titles seem pretty shallow compared to the games of today. I have some of the top titles from that era and am very happy playing my deeper much more challenging Sterns. It should not be a surprise to any of us as the same programmers and designers are doing the work and keep improving. Also, starting with Iron Man is a return to the short ball time and addicting game play which was missing from pinball for a long time.

#54 10 years ago
Quoted from DnDPins:

I predict we will see far less interest in the B/W from the 90s

I'll only agree with B titles, and titles that aren't designed by Gomez, Borg or Ritchie. I think a lot of people are buying older titles made by these two because they can't afford the new Sterns (johnny mnemonic prices are climbing, and rollergames is now a $1200-$1500 game).

#55 10 years ago

Lot of titles for sale. Seems like that time of year though. Expo right around the corner.

#56 10 years ago

I'm the problem. Sorry everyone. The issue is the design of my house. The other day there was a Road Show locally. A year ago I would have bought it in a minute. From the pics it was in real nice shape, and it was from a local guy who I have met and that has an excellent reputation. But I just didn't have the space. If I could have fit it, I'd own it.

So instead of selling in minutes to me, it sat for a few hours... What??? A reasonably price nice machine sold in hours locally??? Crap, that messes up all the theories. Reasonably priced games still move quickly. And it isn't in my house, so I guess I'm not the problem. Sorry. Nothing to see here.

#57 10 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

I'm the problem. Sorry everyone. The issue is the design of my house. The other day there was a Road Show locally. A year ago I would have bought it in a minute. From the pics it was in real nice shape, and it was from a local guy who I have met and that has an excellent reputation. But I just didn't have the space. If I could have fit it, I'd own it.
So instead of selling in minutes to me, it sat for a few hours... What??? A reasonably price nice machine sold in hours locally??? Crap, that messes up all the theories. Reasonably priced games still move quickly. And it isn't in my house, so I guess I'm not the problem. Sorry. Nothing to see here.

I have to laugh. I passed on a reasonable local lost world recently too. I have too many machines and no space. Last year, it would have lasted seconds from me.

#58 10 years ago
Quoted from DnDPins:

I predict we will see far less interest in the B/W from the 90s.

I hope so to because they are some of my favorites. Not a WMS/Bally snob and nearly half of my games are Sterns, but the 90's games are still my favorite so the more people dump them for new Stern's and JJP games the happier I get.

#59 10 years ago

I got the rollie on my arm and I'm pouring Chandon and I roll the best weed 'Cause I got it going on

Drop it like it hawwwwt

#60 10 years ago

Ugh. One of these threads. Again.

#61 10 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I'll only agree with B titles, and titles that aren't designed by Gomez, Borg or Ritchie. I think a lot of people are buying older titles made by these two because they can't afford the new Sterns (Johnny Mnemonic prices are climbing, and Rollergames is now a $1200-$1500 game).

I've seen no data to back up this. Citing two data points, both of which I think are dubious at best, does not necessitate a trend. With your numbers cited for Rollergames, I know of more than one Rollergames in the last few months that has not managed to break the $1k barrier.

#62 10 years ago

Let's have this same conversation in February or March and see where we're at. It's Sept 5. Still summer. Still a slow time for pin sales. Certainly not enough data to conclude that prices are dropping across the board.

#63 10 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Lot of titles for sale. Seems like that time of year though. Expo right around the corner.

There is a MUCH longer story here, but last year at this time I was VERY MUCH in the market to get some stuff, and it was slim pickings that were selling ridiculously fast. I ended up making deals for three pins between August and Expo, and almost a fourth. I got two pins at Expo, and I was going to look at a third Wednesday when I showed up, and the seller already sold it to someone else basically the moment he arrived. (Which was fine.)

I've managed to make deals on the same number of machines in the past 30 days, and had another fall through. I have another possible deal on the table too. And the difference is I'm *barely* looking.

Admittedly, this is only one data point, but I talk with a lot of friends who are major collectors (yourself included ) and from what a lot of people have been telling me recently, they are seeing the same stuff this year.

#64 10 years ago

There is a simultaneous thread started at the same time as this talking about how prices keep going up.

#65 10 years ago

As long as people are in the hobby, there will always be collectible games, and some that will increase. But once the frenzy is over or redirected, pricing will stabilize. Maybe even drop a bit on certain titles.

Seems a lot of collectors are redirecting their attention to the newer titles. I remember the days when there were a lot of Bally/Williams ONLY people (often labeled as Stern haters on RGP) but now I am seeing sooooooo many collections loaded with new machines. It's exciting, it's a fun experience to get an NIB.

I would also like to acknowledge the new collectors. With the rush of new collectors, it seemed like we were all surprised at prices. Reality is...... it got competitive, always monitoring for sale ads, and the top rated titles were just snatched up at full asking price in a matter of minutes. More collectors than machines. But the 2 minute sales seem few and far between, titles are now available.

I don't have a crystal ball, but the next 18 months will be interesting either way.

If prices go up? $25000 MM will cause a lot of people to sell. BUT, a lot for sale drops the price again.
If prices drop? People will hold, in hopes to recover, just to finally liquidate (just like inexperienced stock traders)

Sorry to ramble, I am into marketing, and the market. If find the pinball market interesting and at a crossroads. Which way it goes is only up to us and where we spend our $.

Where are you spending your next $7000? "A" title or Stern title? Or somewhere else....

#66 10 years ago
Quoted from ovfdfireman:

Where are you spending your next $7000? "A" title or Stern title?

I like how the "A" title and Stern are mutually exclusive . Didn't you hear, every game that comes out is automatically the BEST PINBALL EVER for at least a few months....

#67 10 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

I like how the "A" title and Stern are mutually exclusive . Didn't you hear, every game that comes out is automatically the BEST PINBALL EVER for at least a few months....

Ha ha, I know right! Best game ever! Not mutually exclusive, just the same price range! I should have clarified!

#68 10 years ago

I think the reason the cheaper titles are selling, while more expensive ones are sitting is *because* of the influx of new buyers. When someone's getting into a new hobby, they're going to try a lesser-priced example so they can see if they'll like it long term. If I were to get into photography, I wouldn't start with one of those $4000+ digital SLR cameras. I'd get a better quality point-and-shoot, then move up from there.

#69 10 years ago

For me I believe that not everybody has unlimited cash flow and the ones that do are getting to the point where they have there MM or there MB and so on. That leaves the rest of us that cant buy them at top dollar so the prices will have to come down if they want to sell. And the bubble will burst.

#70 10 years ago
Quoted from PINBELL:

Is that dollars or pounds?

Euros.

Quoted from TheLaw:

I don't think think hassanchop is in the UK.

Portugal.

#71 10 years ago
Quoted from fiberdude120:

For me I believe that not everybody has unlimited cash flow and the ones that do are getting to the point where they have there MM or there MB and so on. That leaves the rest of us that cant buy them at top dollar so the prices will have to come down if they want to sell. And the bubble will burst.

I agree with this, but the question is still a matter of when. If there continue to be a large number of new people entering this hobby, the above will not occur until that stops.

Combine that with people who are currently in the hobby who decide to get out (someone else posted a statistic that people tend to change hobbies every 3-5 years on average), and you will see prices drop.

#72 10 years ago

A lot of people also (myself included) will list a game with a price we know is high, since we know a buyer will come in lower. The asking price, wanted price, and selling price are all different things. If you throw out a RS at 3000 and someone bites great. but in reality you know you're going to get considerably less than that.

#73 10 years ago
Quoted from Carl_694:

There is a simultaneous thread started at the same time as this talking about how prices keep going up.

Biased Group B's response to Biased Group A.

#74 10 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

A lot of people also (myself included) will list a game with a price we know is high, since we know a buyer will come in lower. The asking price, wanted price, and selling price are all different things. If you throw out a RS at 3000 and someone bites great. but in reality you know you're going to get considerably less than that.

Yeah, we see listing prices, we rarely see the actual sales price. I know the last pin I bought was 40% less than the seller was initially going to ask, but he knew it was high and that the end price was fair for the condition, plus he was happy to sell to a pinsider who was going to restore it. We just don't have access to that data and only see the asking prices.

#75 10 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Yeah, we see listing prices, we rarely see the actual sales price. I know the last pin I bought was 40% less than the seller was initially going to ask, but he knew it was high and that the end price was fair for the condition, plus he was happy to sell to a pinsider who was going to restore it. We just don't have access to that data and only see the asking prices.

I usually get 70 percent off. You are getting robbed!

Super exclusive ad from the Pinside Marketplace!
#76 10 years ago

LOL. There are about 10 pins that just posted as sold in the last couple hours.

#77 10 years ago

All I know is, this BATWATCH has been haunting DC CL for a looong time, despite AWESOME SHAPE, and I will kind of miss this listing when it's sold.
washingtondc.craigslist.org link

#78 10 years ago

LOL. It won't go away. It's listed right now at BOTH $1700 and $1800. Driving me crazy cause they keep reposting.

#79 10 years ago

AS MACHO MAN said "And the beat goes on..."

#80 10 years ago

1. People's gamerooms are full
2. Stern has been hitting them out of the park lately, taking alot of the new money.
3. Entry level newbies will pay $1400 for the Getaway, but not $2400.
4. Like real estate just was, flippers are paying really high amounts to make a quick $400. Flipping $1000 pin for $1400 - $400 profit is one thing, but $2000 trying to get $2400 is tight.
5. People want too much for their mods on their pins. .30- .40 on the dollar is more like it.
6. Older used pin prices are getting close in price to new Pro Sterns. Want new or old?
7. The economy isn't that great - wait till the stock market and people's homes drop 10% or more and mortgage rates hit 6%. It is coming.
8. Everything will be OK.

Good way to check market is to watch local flippers inventories from now till after Christmas. I am watching one guy with 30 pins! Alot more than he has every had to sell at one time.
We will see.

#81 10 years ago

Both.

#82 10 years ago
Quoted from ovfdfireman:

now I am seeing sooooooo many collections loaded with new machines. It's exciting, it's a fun experience to get an NIB.

It used to be a fun, exciting experience to buy a NIB.

Now its trepidation and stress over how crappy the software is and which mechs won't function correctly.

Yes I'm a bitter, former Stern customer...

#83 10 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

newbies are starting to wise up and think before they buy. We had a big rush of brand new people the past year and a half to 2 years. Think many are not being compulsive buyers and think before they buy.

I think this is true, also with the fact that it's so much easier nowadays to find out what a certain machine is worth. If a newbie finds a machine for sale, all he has to do is Google the machine's name and within a matter of minutes he finds forums like Pinside and RGP and KLOV that will give him a pretty good idea of what the value is. Makes it much easier to make an educated decision from the buyer's perspective. For the seller though, the amount of information that is readily available makes selling machines hard because people haggle over the price!

#84 10 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

the Price Police have something to do with this

I know this is a common joke around here, but seriously...

Part of the reason that machines are listing for more and selling for less is that people list machines high so they have room to come down on price. Then someone (who has no interest in the machine anyway) destroys them over the price and everybody's pissed off. The seller then sells for a lower price than he was hoping for and (potentially) loses money.

As a little kid someone once told me, "If both people leave a transaction a little upset, it was probably a fair deal for both. If one is really happy, it was probably a bad deal for the other."

People that bash a seller about over price don't help anyone or anything. IMHO, a seller's price on a machine can be whatever he wants. If it doesn't sell, it doesn't sell. No reason to run somebody into the ground over it. And if you're interested in the machine at a reasonable price, PM the seller and (RESPECTFULLY) offer him something *reasonable*. Strike a deal that is fair for both!

#85 10 years ago

I would have said its only the seasonal issue until seeing the guy trying to sell a nice HUO LOTR and POTC for low prices on another post here. They have been advertised for days now.

With that in mind I'd have to agree with many of the other opinions. We have never had this many new games coming out or near to being out. With Woz, Metallica and Star Trek info hitting the market at the same time as people tiring of their AC/DC, and with so many people still buying Trons from the last run there are plenty of people who have to sell other games to make room for their new ones. Now would be the time to buy. Plenty of posts like this were coming up last year at this time but once winter hit prices went back up again.

#86 10 years ago
Quoted from dmklunk:

And if you're interested in the machine at a reasonable price, PM the seller and (RESPECTFULLY) offer him something *reasonable*.

Therein lies the rub- At what point are you insulting the seller with what you feel is reasonable? Like I said before, I think asking prices just continue to go up while actual sale prices stay fairly static. Sellers raising their asking prices are shooting themselves in the foot, because there are a lot of people like myself that don't feel like they are serious with their initial asking price, so why bother? For me, a *respectful* threshold for negotation is the 10% of asking price range, anything more may come across as an insult.

#87 10 years ago

I hope the ass falls out of this hobby and maybe I, and the rest can enjoy some more disireable titles!!!

#88 10 years ago
Quoted from dmklunk:

I know this is a common joke around here, but seriously...
Part of the reason that machines are listing for more and selling for less is that people list machines high so they have room to come down on price. Then someone (who has no interest in the machine anyway) destroys them over the price and everybody's pissed off. The seller then sells for a lower price than he was hoping for and (potentially) loses money.
As a little kid someone once told me, "If both people leave a transaction a little upset, it was probably a fair deal for both. If one is really happy, it was probably a bad deal for the other."
People that bash a seller about over price don't help anyone or anything. IMHO, a seller's price on a machine can be whatever he wants. If it doesn't sell, it doesn't sell. No reason to run somebody into the ground over it. And if you're interested in the machine at a reasonable price, PM the seller and (RESPECTFULLY) offer him something *reasonable*. Strike a deal that is fair for both!

I could care less what people list them for, my problem is the price pumpers... Dirty WCS with pf wear for $2650? This will sell fast! GLWS (because I own one)...
Drives me nuts... When someone price pumps I check their collection and they usually have the game. Of course their data could be incorrect but the price pumping is crazy and I cant believe that someone would fall for it...

#89 10 years ago
Quoted from pinnyheadhead:

Good way to check market is to watch local flippers inventories from now till after Christmas. I am watching one guy with 30 pins! Alot more than he has every had to sell at one time.
We will see.

Wonder if I know who that might be...

#90 10 years ago
Quoted from dmesserly:

It used to be a fun, exciting experience to buy a NIB.

Now its trepidation and stress over how crappy the software is and which mechs won't function correctly.

What do you mean "now"?

It seems that it has been this way for a long time. So when did the transformation from NIB being a fun, exciting experience turn into trepidation and stress?

#91 10 years ago
Quoted from Snowdale:

I hope the ass falls out of this hobby and maybe I, and the rest can enjoy some more disireable titles!!!

All I know is that I love that ass that is falling out of your profile pic... Thank you.

#92 10 years ago

I think most people find their games on craigslist and craigslist is like a flea market, nobody wants to pay asking prices so seller price their games high so they have room to come down. I also think that the older collectors that have some knowledge about pins know how to get a good deal on a game, fix it and clean it a little, and when they get tired of it put it for sale at ridiculous prices and if they get it cool if not it stays in their collection.
I am in my 40's, been into pins for 15 years and the last few pins I sold where to guys in their early 20's, out of college with a good job. I listed them for high prices and about s@#% when they payed the asking price. But they wanted games that where fully working and clean because they new nothing about fixing and shopping. Now they experienced and don't want the shopped games but want to do it themself.
I personally prefer selling to new guys because experienced guys want to pick apart your game and beat you up over every little thing to get a better price.

#93 10 years ago
Quoted from dmklunk:

Then someone (who has no interest in the machine anyway) destroys them over the price and everybody's pissed off.
No reason to run somebody into the ground over it.

All the Price Police are not the same; you're showing us in a very negative light. Someone has to combat the Price Pumpers. An epic battle raging for thousands of years.

"Hey good luck with your WCS sale for 2k bro, someone offered me 5k fir mine but i was all like, no way duuuude! It's worth way more than that. If WCS came out today it would be an 8k game!"

#94 10 years ago
Quoted from shimoda:

Wonder if I know who that might be...

I call him rarely and he kind of does the carrot on the string to a horse kind of thing with his pricing, just alittle too high. I haven't bought one from him though. I don't think he is a bad guy or will try to trick you with a patched up poor pin though. He has 30 pins for sale and usually only has around 12-15. He is banking on them all gone by New Years. If the market drops 25% with long sale times people like that are in trouble. We will see by Christmas.

#95 10 years ago
Quoted from t2:

I think most people find their games on craigslist and craigslist is like a flea market, nobody wants to pay asking prices so seller price their games high so they have room to come down.

Most of my experience doesn't likely apply as I am an Em guy and they are still cheap for the most part. I'm not buying and selling multi-thousand dollar games. Dealing on craigslist is always interesting though. You wouldn't believe what people will offer sometimes. Selling a working em for $500-$600 and get multiple offers in the $100-$200 range. I would expect maybe one ballsy crackpot but there are usually quite a few. Maybe raising prices weeds out the characters.
Alex

#96 10 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Let's have this same conversation in February or March and see where we're at. It's Sept 5. Still summer. Still a slow time for pin sales. Certainly not enough data to conclude that prices are dropping across the board.

That and in my area I haven't really noticed much price drop at all. However, it always seems to be on the high side anyways.

#97 10 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

That and in my area I haven't really noticed much price drop at all. However, it always seems to be on the high side anyways.

Same here Dude. No sign of pins dropping in price around here. Would also add that there appear to be a shortage of pins being sold around here too.

#98 10 years ago
Quoted from ralphwiggum:

Therein lies the rub- At what point are you insulting the seller with what you feel is reasonable? Like I said before, I think asking prices just continue to go up while actual sale prices stay fairly static. Sellers raising their asking prices are shooting themselves in the foot, because there are a lot of people like myself that don't feel like they are serious with their initial asking price, so why bother? For me, a *respectful* threshold for negotation is the 10% of asking price range, anything more may come across as an insult.

10% rule seems silly. The actual market value of the game is a *respectful* threshold. If a seller is way overpriced the buyer should be honest in their assessment of the game and make a fair market offer. Seller can take it or leave it. There's nothing personal about making an offer based on the market.

#99 10 years ago
Quoted from jgreene:

10% rule seems silly. The actual market value of the game is a *respectful* threshold. If a seller is way overpriced the buyer should be honest in their assessment of the game and make a fair market offer. Seller can take it or leave it. There's nothing personal about making an offer based on the market.

That's the thing.... What's the "market"? It isn't a concrete object, it is a geographically based moving object based on a ton of factors.

I completely understand the seller can take it or leave it, but I am not going to waste my time (or the sellers) with an offer that is drastically different than what is advertised.

If the seller is within approx 10% of what I feel my local market is, then I feel like the seller is reasonable with some understanding of the local market.

#100 10 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

What do you mean "now"?
It seems that it has been this way for a long time. So when did the transformation from NIB being a fun, exciting experience turn into trepidation and stress?

I think its been that way pretty much since they introduced the downloadable updates. Some initial releases were pretty good and others were crap. Some crap got good updates reasonably quick and others haven't. Some were abandoned with significant things left undone. Of course opinions of software quality and game completeness are subjective.

I suppose problematic mechs and other QC stuff has been around for a long time but the rapid, large rise in prices have magnified beta release problems. Since downloadable software and the introduction of LEs which cause people to rush purchases before the games are finished, Stern (and JJP) haven't felt it necessary to provide a finished product. Follow through has come from dedicated employees or the desire to sell additional pins in further runs.

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