I have to say that I like all of the A list pins and don't think any are "turds" .
There are a few I wouldn't want to own or own again even though I like them for the occasional play.

TZ because I play it the same way every time and although the shots are great they are limited in number.
MM and CV because just never lit a spark with me and there are other 2 flipper fan based games that I prefer.
LOTR because it holds onto the ball for too long. This combines with the depth of the game to make it a bit of a trudge.

It is all relative though and like I said I still like them all.

CV is not a favorite of mine. It looks great but not enough shots for me. TZ looks great also but not enough flow and it seems so methodical.

I think the TOM and TOTAN games are beautiful but I do not miss playing them.Too much repetition.

I can answer this,, Terd's huh !! MM wasn't to my Expectation ,, CV ( Sucked ) and CC it was ok but i could see me sell-n it Quick . I owned MB for a month . ToM got Old Quick , SS , Beautiful but got repetitive , STTNG I didn't Like @ All .. TOTAN is like ToM. ----- ,, TZ is a Keeper !!

..My BSD in my opinion is Better than any above & it still Woop's my but !!

That BSD keeps haunting me. My pin-pusher sent me a BSD coaster the other day.

The one thing I love about pinball and I love about this forum is that opinions can vary so much from machine to machine.

IE. The 2 most mentioned pins in this thread so far are TZ and BSD. I love the theme of BSD and the look is great! However, the layout irritates me and thus makes it a pin I would never own.

TZ is the pin I am chasing with all of my effort right now....

This is precisely why I would always recommend people try as many games as possible before writing them off because of bad reviews (you may find YOU like it) or just buying a game because of good reviews...

TG

All pins get boring/stale/repetitive really, that's why we need more and more. You can't have just one. You need at least 3 or 4 to keep things fresh, preferably 10 or 20 is better though

Star Trek Next Gen has never done it for me. The music is so overused it's obnoxious, particularly the end of ball bonus music and the skill shot music. The modes don't do anything for me, the video mode is just a pattern, and the cannons block the very drainy outlanes from view, so you're basically Tommy nudging half the time. I see the huge production values of the game but it just doesn't grab me.

TZ for me too...glad I'm not the only one. I just can't get into it with all the stop and go.

Yup, sounds about right. Game gets stale, move over 2 feet.

out of the "A listers" CV really didn't do it for me, zonky theme killed it i think because Totan looks amazing and it has similar elements.

Dang... so I guess I spent 60 hours polishing a turd

Oh well, I admit that TZ is a turd I like to play with. Taste it!

TZ is probably mine as well. Just don't have fun whilst playing it.

It took me a week or two of owning and playing TZ to fully appreciate it. I love it now, but sometimes I have to walk away from it for a little while to play different game styles. I always go back to it though, and the joy is still there.

On topic, CV leaves me a bit flat. Love the look of it though.

MM has to be the most overrated pin to ever be created.

haters... you're all haters!

Is BDK considered A-list? I probably like that one a lot less than most people.

I disagree. It's just the most overpriced.

I was going to add that to my first comment.

I never really understood that sentiment, it's not like there are 20,000 units our there with a huge owner/fan base to pump the "ratings" up. In other words, there are a lot of people (non-owners) that think it ranks up there among the best.

Having said that, I didn't care for TZ (despite the great theme), BUT I certainly understand why so many people do and it's justified in being an A-lister.

Easy A-List Turds for me include TAF and IJ.

Oh yea, looks like we all had our haterade today.

OOH MY....

I don't think that TAF, CFTBL, TSPP, IJ and TOM are that great.

Not a big fan of TAF or TOM.
ToM is a great looker with great flow and cool gimicks but its simplicity gets repetitive and just doesn't hit my heart like MB or AFM which are similarly simple and flowing. I think it is the lack of humor or maybe the music. I do see why people like it though.
TAF, I don't know what it is but this one just doesn't grab me like some other A listers.

Never played Totan or SS so I can't compare these.

Would rather have a Tommy or JM than either of these. Never played BSD.

That's blaspheme! Burn him at the stake!

That is very true... now show me that "A" list so I can see what machines you are talking about.

MB, TOTAN, TOM, SS, CC, CP are all lacking in software/depth which keep them off of my "A" list.

I'd take a Shadow, BSD, or WH20 over any of them. Also, TSPP is on the fringe of A list pricing/status but it is an A+ game to me.

Spiderman and CV are the two "A" list games that don't excite me that much. Not to say that I wouldn't play them if I happened to come across an example in the wild.

Not at all keen on BSD either, but is that classed as an "A" list game?

I played TZ at the pinball circus...and maybe I didn't know what to do or spend enough time, but ya it didn't do anything for me. AFM was amazing though. RBION is another one I didnt care for at all (is that a top one?) but WW that I picked up is very fun for me and hard...for some reason haha. Ya everyone has their own likes, which is good, it got me WW cheap(ish)

I think TAF is over rated as well. its like there isnt much room to move the ball and multiball is just a cluster of fail. CFTBL was ok, but ya just ok. BBB was fun but kinda lacking something.

I owned Williams Indiana Jones for a few months. I loved the theme but did not like how it played. Just wasn't a good match for me and haven't missed it at all. Of all the pins I have owned it is still my least favorite.

The reason that so many don't like TZ is two-fold.

1. On location they are never working all the way. So much stuff going on in there, they are almost impossible to keep clean/100% working on location.

2. The rules. TZ is a game that requires strategy. You need to know whats going on in order to understand what you should do next. You are never forced to do things in a particular order, and that is what keeps me coming back.

Play a few games of TZ with someone who owns one, and keeps it clean and strong. Not only would I bet money that more of you would enjoy it, but also that you would leave thinking about how you would play differently next time to improve your strategy/score. No other pin that I know of does this.

I kinda want one now....

LoTR!
I feel like it's got a lot of problems. Barad Dur always sounds like somethings broken, Palantir... a standup target THERE? TZ had been around for a decade, and they went ahead and repeated that known-problem target placement, only they made the target 3x as large, so it gets whacked 3x as many times. Should have been a captive ball. The saucer that only registers weak shots is almost impossible to hit on games with well maintained flippers (so it works on location) - should have a back on it. The ring periodically blows fuses in normal operation, and often fails without any apparent reason, and the center ramp for the ring shot is near impossible to make with poorly maintained flippers. The playfield layout is generally uninspiring. I think it's carried almost entirely by aesthetics (it looks and sounds wonderful).

TOM i'm also not impressed with - it's not a bad machine, but I feel like it's B-list, not A-list.

Northvibe: RBION is not generally considered A-list, afaik. I'd put it as a strong B-list, fun table. Feels Lawlor-y, IMO, if you don't like the feel of TZ, you probably won't like RBION.

Here's my list, maybe I'll come back and explain better later.

- Tales of the Arabian Nights (WAY too easy to complete)
- Theatre of Magic (not that fun...)
- Cirqus Voltaire (looks good, is a stinker to play)
- Cactus Canyon (pretty bland, unfinished)
- Indiana Jones (owned one, loved looking at it, too many close shots and it was clunky)

I don't think it qualifies, but if Pirates of the Caribbean is considered an A-list game, include it in my list. That game is really boring and far too easy.

Always hard to quantify why people like some things, but hate others.

Twilight Zone - too stop and go. I keep thinking if I owned one, and put a lot of time in, I would like it. Too much money and effort to find out, so I have to stick with my initial opinion after playing it about 25 times. I do think it is an ingenious work of art. So I appreciate it, but just don't care for it.

Cirqus Voltaire- I give it an A for innovation also. Neon light, pop up bumper, playfield DMD, pop up circus head. I cannot get over the theme. I always have thought a Carnevil theme would have increased the value by 25%.

POTC - Theme and toys are cool, but it is missing the fun factor for me. Sinking the ship is not as fun as I thought it would be.

I'll keep trying, but after probably about 100 plays on some very pristine machines, I would say that I won't see it change much. But I love TZ (the theme), so I always play one and sometimes feel like the guy in Mallrats whose staring at the 3D picture and trying to see the ship.

mallrats_outburst.jpg

I would say that you are forced to play things in a specific order as all the points are in the wizard mode. Therefore if your chasing high scores it ir a case of advancing through the panels to the wizard mode, with the odd distraction such as MB or the Gumball machine.

Maybe that is just the way I play it though!

Love it but can't live with it!

For generally top rated games, that I personally dislike a lot.

Star Trek TNG (reminds me of what I do not like about widebody games, those slings/guns)

Cactus Canyon (hate the guns, unbalanced game that was rush finished, wouldn't be claimed a-list if it wasn't so rare and pricy)

I have come to hate Theatre Of Magic and Arabian Nights simply because I have played them so much. Through the latter still is a very beautiful game.

Still I have loads of a-list games yet to play for the first time.

@jar155 You obviously did not play a machine where the ball was so hard to make finish the ramp shot all the way, like I did. A shot that is required for each mode to finish. Working so hard to make that, doing so many shots, that an additional mode or two could have been complete as well. To finally drain on the effort. Arrrrrgh! Made me hate to bloddy thing.

I along with most tournament pinball players would disagree with you on this point. If you had a once in a lifetime LITZ, you might be able to squeeze out 500MIL. A great score on TZ starts at 1.5BIL and goes up from there. The majority of points are found by stacking the correct modes and multiballs at the right times.

As far as deciding what you are going to do next, the programmer was a genius on this account. Next time you have the "Extra Ball" door panel flashing, tell me its not awesome to do everything possible to avoid the pops until you can hit the piano. Try starting "The Spiral" right before multiball, and tell me its not satisfying when every ball launch for multiball also makes the Spiral sound.

TZ is an extremely deep game, and if you are playing just to get to LITZ, you my friend are missing out.

Put me down for MM as overrated. Owned it for three months and the audio call outs drove me nuts. Currently own a Sample CV and feel it is also overrated, but not as much as MM.

Hmm.. I guess it should as it is a Lawlor game...

I've had all of the so called A title games except for MM, MB and CC. None of them have the staying power that the money is tied to. I'd rather have a variety of machines than just one of these for the price...

Yeah - but some of the Pat Lawlor games he made with Stern don't play like a Lawlor game. NASCAR for example... and I hear CSI isn't very good either (and if it's not good, it's not playing like a Lawlor design!) - so I was trying to point out that not only did he design it, but you can tell that he designed it by playing it.

Breakthrough!

More fun to start it right before PBM/fastlock vs normal multiball - only time i'd willingly start PBM with no balls in the lock lane (i usually try to hold off until i've got both balls locked, so PBM will clear them out, and hence multiball will autolaunch new balls for two easy shots at the jackpot), since usually in normal multiball, at least one ball is in the lock lane, so fewer balls triggering The Spiral. And yeah, trying to get to LiTZ is not appropriate strategy. All my best games are from going for multiballs, and stacking it with modes when convenient to do so.

I think most of the A listers are overrated, but there are some special stand-out ones I don't even like to play a full credit on.

1) Cirqus Voltaire - terrible game, it looks like someone drank green and purple paint and then vomited it onto the machine. Ringmaster is irritating, top left of the playfield is wasted with .. 2 plain ball locks, it's just like ToM, except that one is actually good.

2) Attack From Mars - could never even understand why people like this one, dull dull dull, and ugly playfield art to go with it.

3) Medieval Madness - the sound bites just irritate me for some reason, and the playfield isn't very interesting. I would love to own one so I could sell it.

4) Indiana Jones - just doesn't feel fun, although I love the artwork and theme. It's one I expected to like so that was quite a let down.

5) TOTAN - I owned one of these for a while. This is probably the most beautiful looking game ever made, and one of the nicest sounding. I absolutely love it as a piece of art. Unfortunately it's let down by the rules. Shoot the flashing symbols. What? Again?

Seems sad but a lot of collectors just seem to go for whatever is the most valuable or most prized trophy. If all machines were of equal value, I'd own a Dirty Harry, Scared Stiff or Shadow over any of the above games.

CV was never a A title to begin with . Ever !!

I think the majority of people in the pinball collecting world would strongly disagree with that statement.

All this A list B list talk. Could someone please point me in the direction of the lists? I have yet to see one.

SM - I still do not get why this is nearly top 10.

Give me HS2 instead anyday!

There is no definitive list but typically it is the top 15-20 and those above about $4000 value used.

I have both SM and Getaway and I would say the latter cannot hold a candle to SM. It has flow and is fun but waaaay too simple and easy IMO. I would sell my Getaway before my SM. But, to each their own.

It's a shame the list is anything to do with the Pinside/IPDB ratings, because the ratings aren't really very good - just check any title and you'll find new owners giving out straight 10s left and right because it's their first pinball machine, and for anything from rubbish to awesome the score runs from about 6.5 to 9.5. There's no other way of doing it of course, so whatever.

Luckily there is one upside to the trophy game pokemon phenomenon at least, it makes everything else cheaper.

hmm well I played it that way on someone's game within the last week and got 1.4m so I'm afraid your wrong. Remember you play other stuff on the way. You may well be right about the in-depth strategies but as it is also a bit of a drain monster that advice isn't much advice isn't much help to your average Joe.

I have played in many tournaments but mustn't be of your high standard. I have also have played the game many times and owned it twice in the past.

and I also say that I like the game but whenever I had it, it sits there unplayed!