For the Barcade is the future idea - a fair amount of the folks who put games on location are pinball enthusiasts themselves. I don't think they just do it for the money or the fame. They want to get more pinball out there to more folks and work on something that they are good at and have fun with.

Like Atlanta sucks for location pinball but my friend who has owned games for years just went and put 4 games around ATL on location. He is doing it because he loves pinball.

So yes location pinball will continue to steadily grow, but I feel much of the new games going out there will be set up and run by those folks who love pinball, care about quality and code and not some route guy who has never flipped a ball before looking to make a quick buck. So you can't ignore Home Use folks for location people because a good chunk of the HOme Use people are the location folks.

Well at least you do not have to get a color DMD. JJP did not put any pressure on Stern pricing with a $500 increase of their own for Pirates. Wish they stayed the same.

Sounds like someone needs to open a pinball Company.

Folks can say Spooky games aren't that great. No biggie.

Does anyone here defending Spooky actually own any of their games?

Ha ha. Hopefully we will get a good Stern Pro value player. Man Borg games are so good.

I think folks thinking Stern is reading what they say on Pinside is a big part of the problem of excessive complaining about games.

If tons of folks constantly complain on PS they feel folks at Stern or anywhere else will take note and adjust. If they don't complain maybe folks feel their gripes will go unnoticed. This includes minor issues or larger issues. All of which means that PS is just one big complaint porthole though and that is why it is not very fun like it used to be. The helpers, fixers and reasonable folks are disappearing steadily.

Yeah I vaguely remember someone from JJP going on a under warranty WOZ for sale thread randomly mentioning to perspective buyers that the warranty was only for the original owners and can not be transferred. That did not go well, but they worked it through. The smaller companies have done very well with Pinside presence. Very smart of them to do so and they got rewarded with support and sales. Stern should do it also even if they take it on the chin because it would mean they are trying. JJP should do it too especially because they get a lot of love right now.

On the complaining - I feel a pretty good chunk of the legitimate complaining about Stern is totally getting lost because it is done by folks who don't own any Sterns and will likely never buy a new Stern or used one anyway. Like I have some BW or JJP friends who constantly bad mouth Stern. I never badmouth any of their games I don't really like. It does not make me happy and I feel like I am being rude doing it.

There is some - "well I would buy a new Stern if they do all these things!", but the list seems to go on too long and sorry Stern or anyone else is not dropping their prices $500 or more. If you don't like any of their games made yet like LOTR, TSPP, SM, FG, IM, MET, ACDC, TWD, GB, GOT SW etc then chances are you just will not own a newer Stern and they will not change for you. That's ok. Plenty of other options.

For me, if you complain about BM code, GB ghosted inserts or a cab issue in your game I totally feel for you and hope things get resvolved. If you got burned I get that and you should be annoyed. If you haven't gotten burned, never owned a Stern or just don't like Stern because of their gameplay or attitude and/ or feel you have to complain about them to make yourself feel better about spending a lot of money on a JJP DI or Pirates purchase or think by complaining you are helping save pinball or something that is kind of lame.

I agree. Barcades kill it if run correctly. Just not sure how many folks who may open a barcade or own a bar hear Gary make his speeches about this? Also at at a pinball shows Gary always talks about how location games are the future of pinball, but everyone on the audience already own games and / or support location anyway.

Talking about the right things to the wrong audience Gary is.

What are you talking about? You think your MET, ST and Acdc are shit? Really?

Man your experience is not typical. Sorry the odds worked against you on those somehow and glad you got those good players worked out.

It seems like B/W folks would like Sterns beacuse they enjoy constantly fixing and tweaking their pinball games.

We have a friend in our pinball group with a dozen 90's pins who constantly asks all owners of newer Sterns how much ghosting we have on our PF's and who many other problems we have and thinks Stern sells a crappy product. He was totally fine with buying a 90's pin recently from from a collector who had a DMD problem "that just started the day before you showed up?!" and he spent hours and hours and then more money fixing the issues. He never bad mounted or complained about the seller or anything. He kind of liked the challenge. He would not want to deal with Stern and some Stern buyers would not want to deal with my buddy's issues.

I think we are all "fanboys" of pinball which is crazy within itself.

In pinball history there must have been some periods of folks saying "the way these games are made they will never last!" issues. I don't know if examples because I haven't been around long enough, but the older games live on. Maybe this was never a question or issue before.

It is ok you don't like Stern. Plenty of good pins to go around.

What I appreciate is you not being hyper dramatic about your view.

Well......I would say other folks who like the other manufactures shoot plenty of Shit. There is no right or wrong and if we feel like we are under attack we really aren't.

You said it in a mellow way but you still said Stern ruined pinball.

How about this - What if there was no more Stern and Williams was still in business and put out the exact same pins that Stern did over the last 20 years. They played the same and everything.

I may be wrong, but I feel that you would like the games a lot more, even love a few, and would not say that there has not been a good pin made since MM and Williams is ruining pinball.

I am sorry could you do a timeline? Like TSPP, LOTR, FG, RBION, SM, sopranos, IM were all cheap games where the folks making it had to be held back so even worse these games were not that good also? Folks got these games from Stern without any competition for around $4000ish or under also. Not bad. Keep in mind they had lower production runs. If Stern was selling 20,000 or so pins maybe prices would come down?

Seems like completion came in and when it did then prices went up and up not steady or down either. What is up with that?

For all folks say about "value" and how Stern does not offer any, they do have the best resale value of any other pin company and a Pro pin can crush in the right location and make an operator and business owner money. I have seen the numbers and they can be off the charts good. This exposes new folks to pinball and future owners of pinball. I am sure JJP does well also, but they are $2000 or $2500 more and a routed JJP game will depreciate more dollars than an Stern Pro.

JPOTC looks great and maybe Jack said "go crazy" on it to the design team. Maybe that added a $500 price increase or maybe not. Game looks really cool, but I am not sure $8500-$12500 games are the way that pinball should go just to get the hadcuffs off.

Well who knows next year, but recently GB Le, BMLE and SW Le did sell out. So I don't see the big drop out that you see. Do those LE's make sense in value for what you get? Most would say no, myself included, but folks and myself are buying them anyway. I am not defending SWLE as a good value. It is not and folks should get a Prem or pro, but I love my LE anyway. People are saying JJP games are good values, but I don't think those are either, but folks will buy them and love them anyway. That is ok. Either way things are selling well and prices are not coming down.

I think CGC games are pretty cool! Folks know the games and what they are getting.

I am not sure what good sales for DI even are. I know they are selling but not selling like crazy and if JJP does get a bigger factory I bet that prices will go up not down due to history of this with Stern. They just did a $500 increase on POTC. I get the feeling that folks who were thinking of DI will put the breaks on to see what POTC is like and that will slow DI sales significantly. Why not wait? What is the downside when JJP will make these games for 5 years anyway? Too bad because they are just getting DI out. Folks may love JJP games and the quality, but fewer and fewer folks can afford them and even fewer can buy each one if a fresh pin comes out every year from them compared to say buying one Stern Pro a year.

I really wish JJP, Spooky and CGC were bringing on some competition for Stern, but their games are greats from the past, good folks making different, but not for everyone games and expensive, good quality games priced and made for higher end buyers. Not sure who is giving stern a lot pressure? Wish there was more?

I really haven't had much fun playing WOZ and Hobbit so far, but I try to clear my mind of any preconceived judgments before I play any game. I don't want my views to lock in where they will never change and I have to be stuck on to them or else I will lose or admit I was wrong or something in my mind.

I really never give up in on anything because I may like something later that I am not big on today. Oh my views have changed over the years and will likely change again. When I started I thought I would only buy $2000ish BW games and just cycle through them periodically. Well then IM got a rerun, so I bought that NIB for what I thought was "crazy money!" and I kind of like Sterns better now. I also like 80's Bally's better than 90's BW's now also?! Things change for me and will change again. I could even see selling a couple of my new games for a Bally or two. Who knows? This open minded stuff is all a good thing. It is for me at least.

So I am going to a Buddy's house play DI tonight in a home environment. I will going with an attitude of "what the hell do I know about pinball?" and give it a good shot. Even if I don't like it I am not going to give up on it and never play it again and dig in that JJP games aren't fun.

This all just works for me. Don't take this the wrong way, but - It doesn't seem like a bunch of you are having a super great time explaining "how right" you are about your locked in views on pinball. Well unless PS opinion drama posting is fun for you.

I did not know that. Why is the pricing that way? Do a few Stern distributors control the pricing? Stern just charges more for EU?

Those stern prices you pay are 10% or more higher than here in the US. Good for JJP and not good for Stern. Bad for consumer choice.