Love these threads, for no other reason than you can always count on the JJP Fanbois to bring their army of thumbs...as if it even matters to someone like me that's used to being told I'm full of it anyways.. LOL...thanks for the laugh, guys. You never, ever, fail to deliver.

Rumor has it Stern is ready to change their ways.

Before another title is released all existing games will have completed code and the next title will also be complete before shipping except for a few bug fixes.

Stern will always be the "juggernaut" of pinball. That's not going to change, but they've turned into the commodity pinball manufacturer who concentrates on mass production focusing on the OP. If that statement isn't true and they want to concentrate on the home buyer then they definitely need to step it up at this point(we know the price certainly had).

The problem I have is as they raise the price on mediocre pins it makes way for the high end(JJP) manufacturer to raise also.

As a buyer for personal use I look forward to innovation, so I get super excited for the next JJP pin. The last Stern pin definitely was a let down for me. I had an LE on order and cancelled after I played it. I know some say it's great but to me not so much.

In conclusion, there will be no "dark knight" for Stern. The realization of who's who in the pinball world is very clear. If you seek the "world under glass" feeling that makes you feel like a kid, then JJP is the answer. They truly give you the best of quality and innovation the industry has to offer.

But if you want to kick down some beers and play something you'd see in your local pub or bar then a Stern is where it's at.

I buy a good number of machines HUO. Most recent ones are DI LE and AFM-R, and I'll get POTC LE, TNA and Houdini. Sterns are just not good enough currently IMO, regardless of theme, and wow it takes an effort to screw up SW and Batman as they have done. They have lost my business.

JJP has just significantly raised the bar for pinball, and it's a wonderful thing. Remember 10 years ago when pinball was on its deathbed? No more

Wow, audio and video are amazing so either you wearing heavy ear muffs and real dark sunglasses or played DE SW and thought it was the new Stern version. The theme wasn't wasted at all, what would have wasted it? a slow stop and go adventure style game in my opinion, but to each his own. I think Stern needs to improve only one aspect of their games and thats code, AS was pretty much complete and SW is already done in my mind, if they can get a grip on releasing games with near complete code then not much too complain about, I mean if you want to buy the Pre/LE model thats an option and you can wait to see if its worth it but at least they have a 5K option and SW feels more than worth that price point. What really hurt them and you can see clearly who was hurt is GB's and BM66, I think BM66 eventually will be something special, I never really like GB's but only good things can come from JJP making more games, SW's has been out for 3 months I think and the code is there, hopefully this becomes a new standard, why can't everyone just be happy we have multiple manufacturers to choose from without doing the vs crap, hate Stern buy JJP or Spooky, so far I haven't seen nor have I played a game from either thats worth my money but I'm glad they are making pins and I'm glad Stern is making pins, "A dark night for Stern" thats the problem, why say that and worse start a thread about it? its stupid, why do you want Stern to fail? Couldn't you just say JJP has made a great game I hope Stern answers in kind? anyway I just wish JJP would a pin with a theme I like, Robocop, predator, maybe Bond or Blade Runner, could happen.

No it started as Soon as WOZ was announced. Those days were a lot like now where every post had to be one or the other...and you had most people in the middle not wanting to pick a side because you don't have to.

Again, Stern is planning to exit the pinball biz as soon as the current pinball fad is over and focus on casino gaming. That is part of the reason they moved to the larger plant.
And, once again, I cannot reveal my source, but there is at least one other person on Pinside that is in the know.

It did, why does there have to be a war at all?

Well that would explain the lack of urgency of coding games. Just like Williams, why waste money and time when there will be nobody to answer to later on.

Actually, I believe it's the other way around.

The higher end pins from JJP have allowed Stern to bump up their prices. For those who can't afford JJP, Sterns are still cheaper.

The higher NIB prices have certainly helped increase the value of the older B/W games.

Yeah, remember when everyone told me to STFU when I said that JJP prices were high after the first WOZ price bump, and people made it try to seem like competition would lower prices, then Stern raised theirs, then JJP did, then Stern did, then JJP did..

When is that in 20 years? I'm 43 and see myself buying and playing pins well into my 60's, what about the 30 somethings? If anything will end it will be pins that cost 10K plus, without Stern a lot of people would be out of this hobby with regards to NIB.

There shouldn't have to be but people like to be pitted on a side...just the way people are.

Yeah but its pinball, its a toy, I love pinball but man people need to relax, thats like taking a side on which franchise is better, Star Trek or Star Wars and getting emotional about, I like both but come on.

It's not a toy to many people....their entire identity is tied to it. which is why they cry when somone insults a game they own or gets super pissed at poeple for the same reason. It's fuckign pathetic but whatever

What amazes me is when pinsiders especially the JJP fan boys bring up "BOM" and "Build Quality" all that crap, now the standard JJP is 8500 thats almost 3500 more than a Stern pro, can anyone honestly tell me they see 3500 more in value between the two? I certainly don't, and definitely don't see 6 to 7K value in Spooky pins, TNA at 6K and no one says shit but SW pro is overpriced? seems odd.

always? they weren't "the juggernaut of pinball" 20 years ago. Williams was. times can change faster than people think. only a couple years back, Stern had 99% of the market. now they have what -- roughly 50%? JJP and CGC are selling thousands of games a year now. Stern is still the biggest by a wide margin, but that margin has shrunk dramatically in recent years.

How do you know its 50%? just asking. Don't forget there are a lot more people buying pins than several years back.

i don't -- just a wild guess. what do you think it is? it's certainly a smaller percentage than a few years ago, is my point.

"Bom" and "build quality" are the two most overused and relatively meaningless phrases on Pinside!

Honestly, who gives a F.

While I'm buying a Potc it ain't because of the above. But I'll take it, and the game looks killer

But a lot of people have to justify in their minds why they are spending A versus B in buying a pin

I would agree. I'm considering a game but won't purchase a Stern until it has been out for at least a year at this point.

I think the idea is to sell, at peak revenue / profit. Not to move to casino games, which is a packed market already, with huge players.

WRONG!

JJP is hanging by a thread. Dialed hasn't even hit the 400 mark in sales, all models included. They have bet the house on Pirates, it's sink or swim now.

Not sure if trolling or serious.

I know people who've visited the JJP factory in the last few months. They've been working flat out.

Perhaps you'd like to disclose the location of the desert landfill they're dumping all these DIs into, in Atari style fashion. I'd quite like a free, if sandy, DI.

Care to share where you get this 400 number from?

JJPOTC looks awesome - can't wait to play it. I think Stern just needs to slow there roll. Quality over quantity. Stern needs to make X # of different games per year right now. Maybe that's the wrong formula?

JJP and Stern are not even remotely in the same league but that goes both ways.

You just can't compare a Volkswagen with a Ferrari.

Stern's games play mostly great and are relatively 'cheap'.
Do I wan't Star Wars to look more like the new POTC? - Hell yeah! But I couldn't afford it...

...and neither will the game do well 'on location'. (In terms of earning their own revenue.)

To be honest I've never seen a JJP game on location here.

I much more see an opening there for American Pinball with their price concept.
MORE then one toy but still competitively priced.

VC buyers are often swayed by fat green numbers and big margins.

Stern have been kicking the bottom out of costs for years now. They've got to be hitting peak margin soon, if they haven't already.

I've never been unclear about this, but let me reiterate:

I want JJP, the company to succeed. I definitely want them to make better games than I felt that WOZ and Hobbit were, and it looks like there's a chance for that to happen. I want Jack, as a person, to fail in this industry, because his logic and 'business acumen' (lol) have IMO paved the way for us to all bleed cash out of our asses until the hobby dies. WOZ should've NEVER been sold below what they needed to sell it for to continue as a business, and Stern never should've followed JJP's lead in ratcheting up prices.

The differences between the companies? Stern has never ever purported to give a rat's arse, nor delivered in any way that should have led anyone to expect that they DID, about anything other than the bottom line. You get what you get, and that's that. If you bought, or buy a Stern game expecting anything more than what you bought in the box, you've only lied to yourself. If Stern is helping you, it's only because there's a legal obligation or because they think it will help them sell more games.

JJP.....well...they decided to go after the "rich elite guy" market, and they did. Problem is they didn't mind their own business and just do their thing. Jack put his neck out there and decided to make it personal, Stern has egged it on, and many were happy to help both to create this environment, which was STUPID.....but human. If people would have just opened their eyes, realized that it was "too good to be true" and continues to be so for anyone but the 3% of the population that can both afford and want to pay 9k+ for a pinball machine...

There's idiots on Stern's side, and idiots on JJP's side...in that way, they're completely identical, but that's about it. I think it's a damn shame that Stern didn't choose the long view and try to maintain their pricing structure, but instead decided that they could chase the same dollars as a company that is STILL effectively a boutique manufacturer by comparison. You can't do that and not bring the quality level way up and not innovate, and all that either of these two companies have done is to hurt the hobby by even making the appearance that they're actually competitive with each other, when they're clearly not.

I will say this. I've never had a Stern fanboi tear me a new a-hole for criticizing bad Stern games, but JJP fanbois? On that like white on rice.. Hobbit was (is) terrible, and not even a Keith can save that game from it's physical design. Dialed In is a good playing game, but with a TERRIBLE theme. Ghostbusters scoring is F'ed, GoT has some really damn cheap drains, Star Wars code is fun but HORRIBLY buggy and a very unimaginative layout, Aerosmith is garbage all around...at least the pro is, and KISS and WWE are the two most misunderstood and under-appreciated games since Transformers....maybe a little less WWE than KISS. There, I think I've covered recent history, and probably pissed off everyone about their favorite game? LOL.

If Stern folds or goes into slots and gives up pinball... the hobby as we currently know it is dead, and that's sad, but maybe ultimately it'll be a good thing for new guys like Spooky and American to sustain the hobby for a while. Growth on their end might encourage a more cost-effective production volume for them, and fill the void. JJP will have nothing that even RESEMBLES competition for their model at that point. Houdini is very reasonably priced, as is TNA... leaving JJP all alone to chase that top tier....but at some point they're going to HAVE to find a way to make a more reasonable product to reach into other segments if they want to grow their business. It's not a choice, it's imperative, otherwise they'll stagnate and not grow. Maybe Jack's okay with that...but I doubt his investors are, and he doesn't strike me as the dude that's just going to sit on a string of moderately improved successes and not shake things up.

JJP could just as easily at some point have two games in production simultaneously, with two completely different themes and layouts, one for the "Rich elite guy" market, and one for the "home player" market, at different price points. You don't have to give up the "we don't make different playfields to cut costs"....just design some simpler, fun games. Not everyone enjoys an hour-long slog through a game, either....but this is 4 out of 4 that's exactly that....

Dialed in CE 150 units , sold out
Dialed in Standard less than 100 units sold
So how many LE's? 100 maybe?

R u for real? JJ is still at heart a business man and making money is the first priority, both companies make great pinball machines and both love pinball but its a business, Jack has to be or at least seem to be overly passionate and deliver a premium game or hes out of business, don't be so gullible sir. Stern has given us Tron, TWD, Met, AS, SW, GOT, the list is quite long and they are all great pins JJP just hit number #4.

Ok, throw it back at you, where are ALL the SOLD units? Just because they are made, doesn't mean they are sold. Remember the WPT fire sales?

In all fairness I think it would be better to compare a Stern Premium with the JJP standard. Yes the standard is the low model and the pro is also. However the standard may be missing one or two aesthetic toys but all three JJP models play the same and have the same functioning toys on the playfield. The Stern pro is usually missing a few things over the premium that does affect game play. That makes the price gap smaller than what you are comparing.

Your Source on these sale figures is?

I have to agree with this. I would put a JJP standard, a Stern premium, and now a A.P. Houdini all as being on the same level. I really do not consider any of the Spooky games in on this. To me, Spooky is kinda a class of their own between a Stern Pro and Premium.

JJP - Pirates SE MSRP $8500
27 stand up targets
22 characters to play from
6 diverters
5 flippers
4 speakers
4 pop bumpers
3 slignshots
3 spinners
2 magnets
2 ramps
2 subways (1 of which as 5 entrances)
1 variable speed rocking Mini-playfield with lighted lantern effects
1 canon
1 British ship to sink
1 interactive chest lock mech
1 sub
1Spinning map mech
1 lcd screen on apron
127" LCD screen
1 Tilt Warning lights (cool feature)
1 Malestrom Hole to subway
1 Bayou hidden hole under flipper
1 Save drain on right near plunger
x rollover inserts

SW LE (just because comparing the pro would not even be fair) MSRP $8999
9 stand up targets
5 bank drop target
4 characters to play from
3 pop bumpers
3 translites
2 speakers
2 flippers
2 slingshots
2 ramps
1 diverter
1 save drain ball near plunger
1 sub
1 fork lift ramp
1 hyperloop
1 Interactive Death star
1 Tie Fighter
1 LCD screen on playfield
1 20" LCD screen (i might be wrong)

SW Pro (just for fun) MSRP$6199
9 stand up targets
5 bank drop target
4 characters to play from
3 pop bumpers
2 flippers
2 slingshots
2 ramps
2 speakers
1 Death Star
1 Interactive Tie Fighter
1 LCD screen on playfield
1 20" LCD screen (i might be wrong)
1 sub

I'm not a JJP fanboy but it doesn't take long to realize the quality of the JJP mech compared to Stern SW (ie. one vairable speed rocking mini-playfield isn't exactly the same in value as 1 tie fighter on a stick).

I combined the features on TWD and Mustang and got somewhere close to JJP SE.

Yea pretty sure they are up to over 1000 le sold ....

My sources, and like Ripley says, you can believe it or not.

He is pulling them out of his ass.

There are 160 owners listed on Pinside. I know of about 10 people with one ... I think 1 of those has it listed on Pinside.

DI was launched a year ago and the first units shipped almost exactly 6 months ago.

Hobbit has 488 owners listed on Pinside, was launched something like 3 and a half years ago, and the first units shipped over 18 months ago.

Hobbit's supposedly shifted above 2500 units, though I don't have any idea how much more than that.

Given the above, your totally made up figures are clear fantasy.

You missed my point completely, many collectors and players cannot afford the standard JJP model and the only option is the Stern Pro, I agree in terms of value the Pre/LE model is the closer more accurate model for comparison but JJP doesn't offer anything at the 5K range and if they did it too would be stripped down. STpre ot TWDpre models are for me in the same category as any of the JJP standards and with vastly superior themes, and that matters no matter how many pinsiders say they don't care about theme, most collectors do.

That doesn't answer my question, do you see 3500 of value from SW pro to the POTC standard model? I mean don't get me wrong I don't personally care, buy what ever makes you happy. I'm not buying the LE from Stern anymore, and the Pre would have to have some major upgrades to get my money over the pro.

2500 Hobbits? Oh my. You realize Williams only made 2400 Jackbots?

Some of you have some skewed ideas of units sold

I think you mean a Stern Home pin and the Pro.

I could not disagree more on the 'horribly buggy' part. It's not 1.0 yet, but what is there is very solid so far.

Rob

Who cares? as long as these companies are selling enough games to stay in business, make some money and keep making pins does it really matter? why does anyone care how many units are sold? back to vs crap, this is really sad but entertaining.

The numbers are accurate.