(Topic ID: 200173)
Linked Games
Batman (The Dark Knight)
Stern, 2008-
Batman 66 (LE)
Stern, 2016
-
Batman 66 (Premium)
Stern, 2016
-
Batman 66 (Super LE)
Stern, 2016
-
Guardians of the Galaxy (LE)
Stern, 2017
-
Guardians of the Galaxy (Premium)
Stern, 2017
-
Guardians of the Galaxy (Pro)
Stern, 2017
-
Pirates of the Caribbean
Jersey Jack, 2018
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Fullerton, CA
Quoted from Azmodeus:This thread title will never go away.
I think of batman. I read the dark night when it came out so any reference to dark night pulls me right back to this picture.
I hope both Stern and JJP will emerge triumphant.
The thread title was an attempt at an obvious play on words about Stern and Batman 66.
It's great that Stern have finally got that continued development of code will sell more and more games.
Even games like AC/DC are going to sell more units with each code update.
BM66 is selling strongly, pretty much because Lyman has turned it into a great game and it's still not finished.
KISS, AS and GB will become more popular when they get their promised updates.
Why is Maiden so frickin good?
Main reason is that the code is already superb.
If Stern have turned a corner and are now prioritizing code, they are only going to get stronger.
JJP was in the high seat at expo last year with a license nobody wanted but a game that nobody was ready for (not even JJP it turns out!) and that’s kind of where Stern is today with IMDN, a great looking and playing game with a theme that... well, it has it’s fans. That’s the biz... hell a few weeks back Spooky Pinball were the heroes of the TPF because they had the hot looking new game and nobody else did.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Why is Maiden so frickin good?
Main reason is that the code is already superb.
If Stern have turned a corner and are now prioritizing code, they are only going to get stronger.
Stern adopted some great Keith Elwin "R&D" (from the "Archer" project) when they decided to hire him. This gave Stern a big leg up and most definitely contributed to the polish we rarely see from Stern out of the gate. Hopefully Stern paid Keith for the R&D prior to hiring him...he certainly deserves it!
snaroff
So are people happy with the current Stern CPU (SAM?) and support boards or is that still perceived as a problem?
Quoted from mcbPalisade:So are people happy with the current Stern CPU (SAM?) and support boards or is that still perceived as a problem?
SPIKE.
SAM was the last gen.
My lone SAM game (Star Trek) loves to eat transistors btw.
Quoted from gunstarhero:SPIKE.
SAM was the last gen.
Hearing nothing I'll assume SPIKE circuits work OK.
Quoted from jfh:I have received a few notes claiming that I was hypocritical for pointing out Stern's problems while ignoring the POTC situation.
The original post was about how two presentations came across at that point in time. Stern struck out and JJP hit a home run. Their trajectories seemed to be going in different directions. Clearly hundreds of Pinsiders though my post had merit.
But I suspect impressions would be different if we heard presentations today. We wanted to see improvement from Stern and we have. There are still many things that can be better, but things are looking up. Stern has obviously gotten the message that good software is key to customer sat (and more importantly, selling games). Look no further to see what the code updates have done to spur demand for Batman 66. Maybe they figured out that nickle and dimeing had gone too far (support pegs?) as we see a move with IMDN to redefine the value proposition with the LE concept. Maybe we never see the days of STLE again, but again movement in the right direction.
JJP went in the opposite direction with the disastrous "couple of tweaks to Pirates" video about the removal of the spinning discs (and change to the trunk). Maybe that was inevitable, given how widely praised the reveal was - there was no where to go but down. I don't buy in to the "Pirates will sink JJP" storyline, but the throw the designer under the bus video certainly shot large holes in the JJP Premium Pinball model. Removing one of the two signature innovative toys coupled with the lack of video/audio assets from the movies may leave POTC dead in the water flying the "oh what it could have been" white flag.
The JJP we heard at Expo would have re-engineered the wheels and trunk to address reliability concerns. Instead, they took the "screw it and ship it" page out of the book Stern was using at Expo.
I have faith that JJP will somehow salvage the ship - don't forget how Dialed In went from disaster reveal to hit disaster game - but how they have (apparently) decided to handle POTC may indicate the ideals they espoused at Expo are goals rather than foundations for success.
Dark Night? White Flag? Just anecdotal points in time. How each company responds long term is all that really matters.
I think your topic was relevant at the time. Lots of buzz and deposits on a huge game reveal in Stern's backyard.
Has it aged well, no, but it's JJP's delays and mismanagement that have dragged it down.
Bottom line: Don't reveal a game before you know you can make the game. CGC understands this.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Why is Maiden so frickin good?
Right?! Played a lot of Maiden 2 weekends ago. You're right. The initial software is "mature" enough to show me a good time. The playfield looked healthy, with normal dimpling. I did not notice any crazing or ghosting (and I looked for it). The all-metal ramps looked great and not cheap.
I think Maiden is the redeeming game from Stern?
Quoted from Guinnesstime:Bottom line: Don't reveal a game before you know you can make the game. CGC understands this.
I think Stern's also got a pretty good handle on it.
Quoted from jfh:I have received a few notes claiming that I was hypocritical for pointing out Stern's problems while ignoring the POTC situation.
The original post was about how two presentations came across at that point in time. Stern struck out and JJP hit a home run. Their trajectories seemed to be going in different directions. Clearly hundreds of Pinsiders though my post had merit.
But I suspect impressions would be different if we heard presentations today. We wanted to see improvement from Stern and we have. There are still many things that can be better, but things are looking up. Stern has obviously gotten the message that good software is key to customer sat (and more importantly, selling games). Look no further to see what the code updates have done to spur demand for Batman 66. Maybe they figured out that nickle and dimeing had gone too far (support pegs?) as we see a move with IMDN to redefine the value proposition with the LE concept. Maybe we never see the days of STLE again, but again movement in the right direction.
JJP went in the opposite direction with the disastrous "couple of tweaks to Pirates" video about the removal of the spinning discs (and change to the trunk). Maybe that was inevitable, given how widely praised the reveal was - there was no where to go but down. I don't buy in to the "Pirates will sink JJP" storyline, but the throw the designer under the bus video certainly shot large holes in the JJP Premium Pinball model. Removing one of the two signature innovative toys coupled with the lack of video/audio assets from the movies may leave POTC dead in the water flying the "oh what it could have been" white flag.
The JJP we heard at Expo would have re-engineered the wheels and trunk to address reliability concerns. Instead, they took the "screw it and ship it" page out of the book Stern was using at Expo.
I have faith that JJP will somehow salvage the ship - don't forget how Dialed In went from disaster reveal to hit disaster game - but how they have (apparently) decided to handle POTC may indicate the ideals they espoused at Expo are goals rather than foundations for success.
Dark Night? White Flag? Just anecdotal points in time. How each company responds long term is all that really matters.
I think your post can be summed up as "short term view" - both examples you have are just slices in time / blips and aren't taking in the greater sum. I don't think the change from JJP is a "screw it and ship it" impact... remember they changed the PF to accommodate these changes, not just swapped out the parts. I do wish they had left the potential for a future swap out.. but that too would probably become an albatross around their neck as people pester them forever for something that might never happen.
At the end of the day, JJP learned from WoZ... you can't wait forever to ship.
Stern has had a mixed bag.. but some key things they are doing are flying directly opposite to what their competition isn't... like shipping games in volume and shortly after reveals. It's no coincidence that Stern is promoting that too with their social media posts, etc. They know their big differentiator and are making sure that is fresh in people's mind.
Quoted from flynnibus:I do wish they had left the potential for a future swap out.. but that too would probably become an albatross around their neck as people pester them forever for something that might never happen.
Assuming they stick with what Jack said in that podcast, JJP is handling this wisely -- announce up front that there will NEVER be a POTC game with the three spinning discs, and that if you ever see that mech in a JJP game it'll be years down the road in another title entirely. And then stick to it. Otherwise you'll get at least some people that would otherwise be POTC buyers holding out with dreams of a super-duper version, and if you actually get the mech working reliably and stick it in the Sailor's Grog edition two years from now, you'll piss off all the early adopters.
Quoted from fosaisu:Assuming they stick with what Jack said in that podcast, JJP is handling this wisely -- announce up front that there will NEVER be a POTC game with the three spinning discs, and that if you ever see that mech in a JJP game it'll be years down the road in another title entirely. And then stick to it. Otherwise you'll get at least some people that would otherwise be POTC buyers holding out with dreams of a super-duper version, and if you actually get the mech working reliably and stick it in the Sailor's Grog edition two years from now, you'll piss off all the early adopters.
Yup, like I said, it becomes a 'false hope' that just becomes a distraction and hindrance. Customers will nag and it will influence behavior. Best to just cut tied completely and move onto the next project.
I do wonder if DI has kept its momentum though.. and I can't imagine people are buying hobbit at all.
Quoted from Guinnesstime:I think your topic was relevant at the time. Lots of buzz and deposits on a huge game reveal in Stern's backyard.
Has it aged well, no, but it's JJP's delays and mismanagement that have dragged it down.
Bottom line: Don't reveal a game before you know you can make the game. CGC understands this.
This is true and the many relevant points brought up made me reconsider my IMDN LE position. They sure seem to be on the track to redemption, just wish they would have released an improved "everything" game before IMDN lol. I backed out of my spot a month ago 
because I was worried about Sterns direction..
Quoted from TheLaw:Why is everyone obsessed with TPF? People there are already pinball people.... They're already going to buy the dang thing.
Not true. 50%+ of TPF attendees are families and folks new to pinball. Many comment they didn’t even know pinball was still around until they saw an ad for TPF or heard about it from someone else. Many of them buy their first pin at TPF and later reconnect with the vendors they meet there to buy parts or order that new game they played. TPF and similarly run shows introduce more new people to pinball than any other source. TPF also has hundreds of pinheads visiting from all over the world wanting to see and play the newest games from the manufacturers that they would not otherwise have access to.
One thing I'd like to say is that Stern manuals are absolutely magnificent. At least the Pirates of the Caribbean one I found online was.
You could tell those authors were really committed to what they were doing and having fun at it too.
I hope they continue that practice.
I must admit I'm a lot less skeptical about Stern now than I was 9 months ago. Interesting company.
2 months later
Quoted from CrazyLevi:This thread continues to age really well!
Yes it does. Love post #1 In this thread; "JJP will deliver PotC in Q1, 2018". Should have said Q1-ish.
Love the bashing of Stern, they are laughing all the way to the bank.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:This thread continues to age really well!
And you bring up a thread that has been dead for 77 days for what reason other than to say nothing whatsoever??
Quoted from Who-Dey:And you bring up a thread that has been dead for 77 days for what reason other than to say nothing whatsoever??
His post says a lot. Nine months ago everyone thought Stern shit the bed at Expo and that JJP and POTC would rule the pinball world. Now it's the exact opposite. JJP is currently shitting the bed with their constant shipping delays and "spinnergate" with POTC. Meanwhile Stern is ruling the pinball world with Iron Maiden.
The hype for POTC is gone, long gone.
Quoted from Who-Dey:And you bring up a thread that has been dead for 77 days for what reason other than to say nothing whatsoever??
He's preemptively bumping this for when Stern has nothing at Comic-Con and everyone starts wetting themselves again.
Quoted from Who-Dey:And you bring up a thread that has been dead for 77 days for what reason other than to say nothing whatsoever??
I think his point is clear.
Quoted from BillySastard:His post says a lot. Nine months ago everyone thought Stern shit the bed at Expo and that JJP and POTC would rule the pinball world. Now it's the exact opposite. JJP is currently shitting the bed with their constant shipping delays and "spinnergate" with POTC. Meanwhile Stern is ruling the pinball world with Iron Maiden.
The hype for POTC is gone, long gone.
Ok so what? Stern was at a bad time back then and they have since turned things around, thats awesome. Pinball is better for it and everyone is glad that they are a better company now. It actually was a dark night for stern that night so the thread wasnt wrong at the time that it was posted. Im just glad that Stern is kicking ass right now and i hope they continue to do so.
Quoted from MrBally:Yes it does. Love post #1 In this thread; "JJP will deliver PotC in Q1, 2018". Should have said Q1-ish.
Love the bashing of Stern, they are laughing all the way to the bank.
If you are going to quote to try and prove a point, try quoting the actual words. What I wrote was "JJP says it will deliver in 1Q18 with feature complete code, similar to what they did with Dialed In." That's certainly not an absolute.
Things have obviously changed since Expo, but that doesn't mean the original post wasn't an accurate reflection of the status - or perception of such - at the time.
Quoted from jfh:If you are going to quote to try and prove a point, try quoting the actual words. What I wrote was "JJP says it will deliver in 1Q18 with feature complete code, similar to what they did with Dialed In." That's certainly not an absolute.
Things have obviously changed since Expo, but that doesn't mean the original post wasn't an accurate reflection of the status - or perception of such - at the time.
They did not deliver PotC in 1Q18. Nor in 2Q18. That is an absolute.
Quoted from MrBally:They did not deliver PotC in 1Q18. Nor in 2Q18. That is an absolute.
And that still doesn't change the facts mentioned in the original post.
If your point is JJP didn't do what they said they were going to do, whoop-de-doo. Welcome to the pinball industry.
Things have been turned around since the start of this thread. That doesn't mean that Stern has figured everything out or that JJP is about to implode. Why some insist on making everything a battle between Stern and JJP is beyond me. We should all want both to do well.
Quoted from jfh:Actions speak louder than words. I'm going to be buying on what I get today, not promises of what I'll get tomorrow.
Quoted from jfh:And that still doesn't change the facts mentioned in the original post.
If your point is JJP didn't do what they said they were going to do, whoop-de-doo. Welcome to the pinball industry.
Things have been turned around since the start of this thread. That doesn't mean that Stern has figured everything out or that JJP is about to implode. Why some insist on making everything a battle between Stern and JJP is beyond me. We should all want both to do well.
We can disagree. It's ok.
You titled this thread “a dark night for Stern” and proceeded to write a treatise on why Stern was a failure and JJP was imamacculate. It’s a bit disingenuous now to complain about people not actively rooting for both. There is a ton of water under this bridge, including the first C&D I ever saw in this hobby coming from Jack to a member of this forum, lots of shots fired at Stern and JJP, and an all out civil war on this forum and the rec. There are old wounds that won’t ever heal in this thing.
Quoted from Who-Dey:And you bring up a thread that has been dead for 77 days for what reason other than to say nothing whatsoever??
Because this thread pissed him off...a feat of very few mortal men
Revel in that if you will
Quoted from gambit3113:including the first C&D I ever saw in this hobby coming from Jack to a member of this forum
No kidding? Wow! If you can say, was it for posts he or she was making here?
Quoted from TigerLaw:No kidding? Wow! If you can say, was it for posts he or she was making here?
Dude, you were here back then. Maybe pretty new, but you were around. You know who it was. Some posts here, some on the rec. Jack’s lawyer quoted the silliest stuff I have ever seen in a letter from an attorney. I have it still. I thought you had seen it.
Quoted from gambit3113:Dude, you were here back then. Maybe pretty new, but you were around. You know who it was. Some posts here, some on the rec. Jack’s lawyer quoted the silliest stuff I have ever seen in a letter from an attorney. I have it still. I thought you had seen it
Ah, yes, I remember that one well. A different era for sure. I thought you meant one recently regarding someone making more recent complaints.
Quoted from TigerLaw:Ah, yes, I remember that one well. A different era for sure. I thought you meant one recently regarding someone making more recent complaints.
No, the first I ever saw. Just looked back. That was 6 years ago! Wow, time flies. It wasn’t so much a C&D as a flat threat to sue for damage to his business b/c of refunds when he failed to deliver WOZ on anything approaching a reasonable timeframe. That debacle put me into a 4 year hibernation here eventually. Nice to see that some thing just never change.
Quoted from jfh:If your point is JJP didn't do what they said they were going to do, whoop-de-doo. Welcome to the pinball industry.
This is dangerous thinking and gets right to the root of this ridiculous thread. While I'm not a big fan of Stern, when they announce a game it's delivered within a month. JJP would be in the same boat as Heighway, Dutch Pinball, Zidware, Skit-b and the rest of the conmen that had big dreams and 0 results had it not been for some angel investor that got duped. 4+ years just for the mess that they call The Hobbit! Here we are almost a year later w/ a stripped down game that has yet to even have a set production/delivery date. A dark night for Stern maybe, an even longer decade for JJP to get its act together.
Quoted from jfh:Why some insist on making everything a battle between Stern and JJP is beyond me
Why don't you answer your own question you started the Stern bashing with this thread that has turned into a joke
Quoted from mnpinball:Lights will be back on at 2018 expo with Munsters.
If its even playable and not behind red "DO NOT TOUCH" ropes. $15k a game, Buy now!
Quoted from JY64:Why don't you answer your own question you started the Stern bashing with this thread that has turned into a joke
I'm not really sure what the agenda is for those that resurrected an outdated thread, but I am certainly not a Stern basher.
It is true (and should be obvious) that I was disappointed in Stern at the time. Given the almost unprecedented number of upvotes the original post received I wasn't the only one. We have seen noticeable improvements on a number of fronts from Stern and some missteps from JJP since then. Those are promising and unfortunate developments, but don't negate the perceptions that existed last fall.
It's pretty clear that some recent posters do not care for JJP and that's fine. (I understand some of the frustration, but not the hate). But this thread was never about JJP. It was about what Stern didn't do and wasn't doing (at least publicly) at the time.
It's also pretty clear this particular thread has run its course since subsequent actions by both companies have shown that the perceptions at Expo did not dictate the fortunes of either. Everyone in the hobby should be happy that Stern seems to have addressed some key concerns, but no one should be rejoicing at JJP's stumble with POTC.
Quoted from jfh:I'm not really sure what the agenda is for those that resurrected an outdated thread, but I am certainly not a Stern basher.
It is true (and should be obvious) that I was disappointed in Stern at the time. Given the almost unprecedented number of upvotes the original post received I wasn't the only one. We have seen noticeable improvements on a number of fronts from Stern and some missteps from JJP since then. Those are promising and unfortunate developments, but don't negate the perceptions that existed last fall.
It's pretty clear that some recent posters do not care for JJP and that's fine. (I understand some of the frustration, but not the hate). But this thread was never about JJP. It was about what Stern didn't do and wasn't doing (at least publicly) at the time.
It's also pretty clear this particular thread has run its course since subsequent actions by both companies have shown that the perceptions at Expo did not dictate the fortunes of either. Everyone in the hobby should be happy that Stern seems to have addressed some key concerns, but no one should be rejoicing at JJP's stumble with POTC.
My god you have some nerve saying you are not a Stern basher after starting this thread the entire first pg of the thread is nothing but Stern bashers
2 months later
Quoted from CrazyLevi:OK so any predictions on who "wins" Expo this year?
Or who will be experiencing dark nights?!
No Expo winner but in the long run CGC will surpass JJP because of more reasonable price
Quoted from CrazyLevi:OK so any predictions on who "wins" Expo this year?
Or who will be experiencing dark nights?!
Depends...can Jersey Jack dupe everyone into believing he's telling the truth again?
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