You made a big mistake in this post
-- the previous post referred to what LE buyers pay over a Premium
-- but you switched it to what LE buyers pay over a Pro

Was it done on purpose to make an (invalid) point, or did you just plain not understand???

I've always received free shipping on all my JJP purchases....yes they are more expensive, but they are clearly built at a much higher standard.

what are you talking about...they offer three versions of the same machine, and all three play exactly the same....thats clearly a positive point, and not what Stern does at all....

I wasn't questioning JJP's build quality. Just making sure we're all clear about the price differences, which is also a consideration for many buyers.
It sounds like I was wrong and JJP games generally ship for free, but I'm assuming people still pay MSRP? If so we'd be talking $8,000 for DI and $8,500 (shipped) for JJPOTC vs. $7,200 (shipped) for SW or GOTG Premium, for a difference of $800 (10%) or $1300 (15%).

Added over 6 years ago: I was told by a JJP vendor in another thread the JJP games do not generally ship for free. So either this varies vendor to vendor (and you've found yourself a keeper), or you're getting a special hookup of some kind!

sounds about right..its all a function of whether or not you like the game...if you like the game then the price difference really doesn't matter...their all expensive...assuming somebody likes both titles equally its a no brainer to pick the JJP title...u get a higher quality game, advanced code on delivery, and real customer service.

If I really liked them both equally, I might also go for the one that's $1300 cheaper. But to each his own!

The pinball companies are making us turn against each other

Russia is behind this

Paying $19,300 AUD for a collectors edition JJPOTC is in-saaaane!

Why would you want to do that?

Why not buy the standard one (which has exactly the same gameplay) for $5000 less?

You’re in a small market .. if you sell the CE in a few years, you’re going to lose a heap of money. If you buy a standard, you won’t lose much (presuming the game turns out ok)

As you said yourself, your car is only worth $10k, I can’t fathom why you’d pay twice that for a pinball machine.

Don’t get sucked into the whole “fake scarcity” thing...

rd

i-must-break-you-movies-quote-450x300 (resized).png

This is not true for everything, as I have a WoZ standard currently for sale. I have it for sale because I wanted the ECLE version and I have found it and bought it. Literally every inquery about the WoZ is asking me to sell them the LE, even when it costs 2500 dollar more than what I ask for the standard. My standard even has the shaker and Invisiglass as extra's but still it will not sell.

Standard is the most limited version here in Europe because not many people want it.

Australia/New Zealand is whole different market down here as our choice options and the number of new pins coming into the two respective countries are so small compared to Europe/North America that you can be almost guaranteed to get 90% plus of your original NIB outlay back should you ever decide to sell whether it be at Pro, Premium or LE level.

What we don't have down here as RD correctly alluded to is any significant number of collectors willing to pay those sorts of prices at this new CE pricing level on the secondary market. Once the pricing on the upper tier Stern models cracked the $10kAU mark even the NIB sales of those dropped off dramatically are are now half of what they were just 5 years ago.

As said earlier, this new pricing structure isn't catering for local market expansion, it is simply targeting the miniscule segment of the existing collector market who have adopted the gotta have it no matter what the cost simply because it is "rare" mentality.

Thanks for the explanation. Good write-up of the market over there, very interesting that it can differ so much. Same is true or US and EUR markets by the way. Prices are very different here as they are in the US especially for older BW games.

To rotodave if you read my original post (I should have started it nicer sorry America) I explained I thought of it as swapping 2 for 1 .i played about 20 games at flip out and met jersy jack and fell in love with this pinball. Also think it's worth the extra not to have Johnny Depp on it. Plus I love toppers.

$5000 is an awful lot to pay for a topper.

I live in NZ. Same as Aussie but even smaller top end market.

I was offered a Batman Super LE. It was going to be $25,000 NZD (thanks to the local distributors large markup)

I declined buying it because I knew if I ever went to sell it, I would be blowing $10k plus. Probably $12-13,000 at my guess.

I got a BM66 premium (exactly the same game) for well less than half the SLE price. 44% of the price to be exact. It doesn’t have the topper that the $17,000 LE or $25,000 SLE does.

Bm66 LE/SLE has one of the best toppers of any pinball made. But I ain’t paying $6000 or $14,000 extra for it. That would be mental.

rd

Kevin & family seem to be doing just fine. Nice pic of them on his FB page at the pumpkin patch/hayride...

So Dave, what's the depreciation on the Lexus like? Or should I import the Toyota Mark X G instead.

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So that's it, the new GOTG thread from yesterday has more posts than this entire thread.

12362080_1107684859253730_2031685482_n (resized).jpg

90 days after the first GOTG arrive this thread will assplode with all new complaints

Probably, as it's pretty cyclical around here! As beautiful as the GotG pin looks, some people will be disappointed with code progress, whatever it might be (that's me on BM66 right now). There might possibly be a game glitch kind of like the MET hammer, magnet problems burning up node boards, terrible voice actors, playfield/cabinet quality, or as some seem to think, Groot hands that move by themselves to reduce visibility of the ball. Some attitudes will sour and new threads will be born.

Then Stern will say "squirrel" and introduce another shiny game like Iron Maiden or Elvira and everyone will flock to a new hype thread and lose their minds yet again.

I noticed the same thing when I was attempting to sell my BBB locally last year. Most of the offers were from European collectors wanting me to ship it back there compared to very few locally within the price range I was looking for.

With all the paperwork and costs involved in getting it shipped down here in the first place it was easier in the end just to hold onto it.

I bought that for $70,000 off list price too.

I let other suckers take the hit.

rd

Will NIB pinball ever depreciate as much as every other consumer product?

I'm thinking because of it's (semi) commercial nature and very limited production, maybe not as much.

Until the next GFC at least.

No, because of scarcity... there are always buyers for used games.

However, like everything (property, cars, etc) as the price gets higher, the pool of possible buyers decreases.

When the market slows, they might drop a little more in price, and take longer to sell. But still nothing like a used TV.

rd

Havent you heard? In a mere matter of months prices are set to plummet!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-i-feel-pinball-prices-are-going-to-plummet

I'm not confused - I'll just point out what was incorrect in your previous post (why the point is invalid) - you wrote...

You really think Stern LE buyers are paying a 50% over a Pro just to get something produced in lower numbers and that money doesn't matter? That's ridiculous. As production numbers go, no LE from Stern (or JJP for that matter) can be considered limited (except maybe Batman 66 LE/SLE). If production > 300, that's not limited. And if money doesn't matter to LE buyers why is there so much complaining about price?

But LE buyers are upgrading from a Pro for much more than low numbers - they are also getting all the upgrades from Pro to Premium.
So it's an invalid point to say Pro -> LE is just for the collectible factor.
Premium -> LE is for the collectible factor, and that price difference is 20% more than a Premium - much different than 50% more as you stated.

I think CrazyLevi is right, you guys are getting blue balls!

I was interested in the Star Wars LE when I heard about it. It was a grail theme for me. I even had $1000 down payment BEFORE the announcement. When it was actually announced I could not have been more disappointed. I backed out of my purchase. I thought about premium or pro but eventually decided to not get it. It was a combination of lackluster art, bare play field, and poor theme integration. It is basically a racing theme game (The Getaway: High Speed III perhaps) with a Star Wars decal on it.

Let me emphasize, this was a grail theme.

Also, my friend had a Ghostbusters LE that was a grail purchase for him. He sold it due to questionable longterm reliability and lack of code support.

I have LEs but my faith that Stern will consistently deliver an excellent product is gone. Unless Stern takes measures to reassure the customer of quality, they will continue to lose potential sales to other manufacturers.

Admittedly, there is currently no other company that is a high-volume manufacturer that competes with Stern for sales volume right now. So, right now we are stuck with the TINA (there is no alternative) situation. Stern knows this which is why they can continue to practice the way they do. Hopefully there will be a company that will be able to be the high-volume manufacturer alternative in the future. This always drives up innovation and quality. Stern doesn't really feel threatened right now.

To be clear, I want Stern to be great. I want their games to last for years and have great code.

For me, however, my next purchase are:

Twilight Zone
Attack from Mars Remake LE
Dialed In

No current plans for Stern.

You’re getting DI instead of POTC?

Just curious, but have you actually played SW yet? There are those that don’t like it, but many of us actually really like it. I’m not saying it’ll top TZ or AFM, but give it a legitimate chance if you ever have the opportunity to play one. Takes 10 or 20 games to get the hang of the multiplier swapping, but once you do it’s a rush to play.

SW is a good game overall but they just didn’t put any thought into it at all doesn’t seem like. I have friends that thinks I’m dumb when I talk about “the world under glass” and they think it’s not important, but it is important and it’s everything to a lot of Pinheads. SW should have been loaded with toys, it’s their biggest title ever. Most people who buy these games are big kids and they want toys and lots of them. Stern didn’t deliver that with Star Wars. GOTG is a good example of what a game should be like. It’s packed full of toys and killer art to look at.

Ok your turn - have you put a decent chunk of time in on SW? I get that if you live and die by toys the Pro is a disappointment (I love the Hyperspace loop on the Premium though, it’s much cooler than another bash toy IMO). And the art package is not at MET or GB level, I’ll grant you, though it’s not a hack job either. But they do a nice job “theme building” with video and sound during the modes, which you’d only really pick up by playing. And most importantly, it’s a rush to play!

I see what ur saying but I wouldn't want SW to have been any different really, too many toys can sometimes slow things down and Stern went fast and furious with the style of gameplay in SW and it works well, the code/lighting/sound/LCD visuals and the sheer adrenaline rush when everything is going ur way not too mention the multipliers really makes it a great game but we all right stuff off due to other things than gameplay or at least most of us, theme is first for me, no matter how well it plays DI will never see the inside of my home, neither will AS. I think if ur looking at this from a collector's POV then yeah SW's is a let down, for me, a player first and someone who really never has any pin for longer than 6 months I don't care about the "world under the glass" not that its unimportant just kinda the last thing on my list.

I'm trying to find places to put some mods in the game but there aren't many options with that hyperloop in the way. That had to be a consideration when they were designing the game. Plus I think most of the budget was probably spent on the license. I don't care. I still think it's a wonderful game.

A lot of people on this site seem to be overly concerned with how much plastic crap they can jam in a game (groot's hands, for instance). I'm more concerned with how it plays. AFM is a stripped down masterpiece, and I feel the same way about star wars.

(Okay... Masterpiece might be a bit strong, but it's still epic.)

Star Wars isn't a grail theme for me. I recently picked up an LE because it was convenient (local collector was selling).

After playing 50 games, I couldn't disagree more with your critique. Not a re-themed racing game! Sure, the Hyperdrive mechanism riffs on supercharger from Highspeed 2, but that's cool! Steve Ritchie designed it...that's a virtue!

If after playing 50 games, you are still disappointed, I'll be surprised.

snaroff

Wow someone sold one so quick? Just can't wrap my head around what a 'hyperloop' has to do with Star Wars....and where's the topper?!

That post you just made was pretty epic too boob!

My friend has a SWLE and he loves it. I have played multiple games on it. It just didn't feel like a Star Wars game for me. It feels more like a racing game. That works fine for others, just not my thing.

I have a POTC that I still enjoy playing. It is currently my wife's favorite game. I also have a Black Rose. I don't need three pirate themed games in my collection right now. I am also not a huge Pirates of the Caribbean movie fan.

I'm curious to see what Pat Lawler does without cost-cutting hand cuffs.

I think it has more to do with suspicion that code will remain really basic / unfinished either for an extended period of time, or forever. Not the way it shoots.

That and node boards issues ...

Or maybe it’s like every other NIB game produced over the past 10 years, and they start showing up on the HUO market within a few months? (Yes, even DI, go look on the marketplace if you’ve got any doubts).

Also, the SW code is neither “basic” nor “unfinished”. When did you last play it?

There have been way fewer DIs on the market than any other remotely recent release. Awful example.

Also, people have dumped (or tried to dump) SW and BM'66 very quickly. Noticeably more so than usual.

I keep an eye on the market here as well and if you’re claiming there have been markedly more SW up for sale than your average Stern six months after launch, you’re wrong. More than DI, sure, but I doubt they sold anywhere near as many of DI, and you can’t sell HUO if you never bought it.

No offense, but since you never bothered to substantiate your claim that JJP and CGC are going to produce 8,000(!) machines in 2017, I’ll take your HUO market analysis with a grain of salt.

Now why don’t you tell us some more about the shallow, incomplete code in SW?

It hasn't been close to 6 months since SW shipped.

Why would I bother to "substantiate" numbers again when I already have done repeatedly, and it's based on their own publicly stated (including this forum in CGC's case) projections, plus what I've heard.

I don't think they'll make up 8000 machines in 2017, but I do think there's a good chance they will get very close to or possibly even eclipse Stern production in 2017. It seems very unlikely that Stern will sell as many machines this year as last. BM'66 was a total turkey. SW seems to be selling poorly and the reaction has been awful. Aerosmith reaction has been positive, but as yet another music pin, and the quality and price issues surrounding Stern, it doesn't seem to have sold anything like as well as it could have. GB sales seem to have tapered heavily after all the problems. Even if GotG sells really well, it'll be far too late in the year to make up for it. If anything, Metallica & AC/DC Vault will save their bacon.

You're making things up off the top of your head.

Quick FYI, the largest distributor and reseller in Germany, Freddy's, looked to have about 2x as many DI LEs in their recent shipment as they did SW LEs, Premium and AC/DC combined ... Gary stated in the past that over 50% of Stern's market was overseas. Even if that figure includes Canada, I found that slightly difficult to believe, but if he said that, it's fairly safe to say that foreign markets made up a huge chunk of Stern's revenue and sales numbers. Stern's really have not been selling well in European territories this year. Given all the chatter from Australia, it would seem appetite has tapered there too.

Well Rubberducks it appears you need to be locked in a RubberRoom.

I would certainly like to see the reports of Stern sales and CGC sales etc. because you seem to have knowledge no one else does. CGC will eclipse Stern sales in 2017, wow

Hahahah. That is hilarious.

How many machines do you think Stern are going to produce this year, that that would be beyond the realms of possibility, i.e. "hilarious"? Do you really think they'll make 10,000 machines this year, or close to it? As previously stated, it seems very unlikely that they sell more machines than last year. Supposedly they weren't even close to capacity in 2016. Capacity at the new facility was supposed to be 11-12k a year.

Well, you and I have no idea. Same goes for JJP and CGC.

So, to make any assumption is hilarious, especially when comments like this get made:

The coin boxes reaction has been ecstatic. You have zero knowledge on how many SW Pro's were sold. None. So how can you make a claim like that?

Who gives a shit? that's the real question here.

???

I've seen hardly any LEs for sale on the secondary market. A few more pros and premiums, but not "noticeably more." Most of the machines for sale are still NIB.

Started shipping in June. So 5 months I guess?

My bad again apparently, you threw me off when you posted this a few weeks back in this thread: