Means a huge amount to league pinball. Most leagues are at bars and unless they want to haul in games monthly for a tournament, the games at the bars are the games the leagues play during the tournaments.

People will bring out the knee pads again when GOTG is announced

Better keep that line running

Yeah, TNA was a no-brainer for me at that price. While simple at heart, the whole thing just looks and feels well thought-out, and put together with great meticulous care. I put my deposit down already.

I sure hope Stern catches this thread and a few of the others following Expo. They should be at general quarters as soon as possible if they don't want to take a nose dive.

I can appreciate that. This whole thread really isn't about the $5k pinball market anyways. Stern will continue to own it. I guess to help I should add that when you go to sell your Star Wars, expect to get in the low $4s for it. If that is ok, pull the trigger on a new Star Wars with confidence. If you can't or don't want to take that kind of bite, probably should hold off.

Sorry to get off topic here. Keep bringing out the high end pins, JJP!

Stern's biggest mistake is not having a rep on forums like this answering questions and keeping us somewhat happy with the work they are doing. Keeping us in the loop on code updates and other developments with quality control etc. If Stern put a little bit more effort in this direction I really think it could pay off big for them. Even pretending to listen to customers thoughts and opinions can create loyalty, and confidence that Stern is doing a great job listening to their customer. I do not get this feeling from Stern. When I spend 10k I want to feel like the company I just spent my money with is listening to me. Hence the reason I will be sticking with older titles and NIB from JJP.

I was curious about this, how profitable are league nights for operators? I admit I don't know much about it as I avoid those nights because the machines are all in use and I'm not a tournament player. Does an operator get a cash payment because the games are on free play. Are those better nights or worse as far as profit. Seems like a good night for the bar but not so good for the pinball machines themselves.

This Op loves league nights, and plans on getting as many POTC out on route as I can. I think this game will earn really well. I just hope ball times arent too long and don't think they will

I'm not a operator but the bars must love them. 20 to 40 guys standing around for 4 or 5 hours, drinking and eating food.
Plus they make a % (say 20%) of all cash during the rest of the month.

Price drop on "ghosting is normal" games..... I'm still out. Price drop on games with unfinished code.....I'm still out.

are you mental? Stern's sales are hugely up! Why would they reduce the price?!

Neil.

SW pro is a fantastic fast playing great pinball machine, whats the point of all this Stern is in trouble crap, am I only the only one who doesn't give a shit? I mean its 3500 more for a JJP standard, it better be amazing.

You didn't hear? It's all over for stern, and they'd better slash prices and reposition their marketing as the "Yugo of pinball" or they'll be tits up in a year.

Not gonna announce till next month I hear. Distributors are still sitting on Bat66 and SWLE. Saturation is coming to a head.

WWE LE

Stern is leaning towards how things use to be. When arcades were the big thing. All pinball companies would design, build, and ship a completely working game to the operators/arcades for use. The games would make money for the operators and then that would go on until the next game would release. Out with the old or broken and in with the new and working. Stern may not want the collector market because they don't want to have to deal with making parts and fixing issues years down the road (possibly even days and months). Now that arcades are dead, but barcades are on the rise we have a new marketing plan..."Get those casual players that are a little drunk to play our games and they won't know that the code isn't finished." Which brings me to my next point.

Looks like Stern is turning into video game developers. How so? In the form of releasing a product that they KNOW isn't finished, but want to make the money now and fix/patch the issues later....with an update. If you want Stern to change for the better. STOP BUYING THEIR SHIT! Don't preorder either. Not until you know it works, fully. If a company keeps making profits even when the customers are complaining, why change? I promise you, the moment they nose dive on profits you will see a change. Hopefully for the better.

As a video game developer I can with complete confidence tell you this is 100% false. This stuff used to happen when everyone and their dog was churning out crap but those days are long since over. It is just not the reality at any legit studio.

Oh, that is not the point. Slashing prices for what?
I have written an email to stern support more than one time, never got an answer.
I bet, the same mails sent to JJP and they would have answered.

So, the price is not important (JJP is not in the range of the pros). Important for being excellent is how you make your CRM. When you want to be in the market tomorrow.....

So, maybe customer are willing to buy one JJP INSTEAD of two Sterns.

You da man MN!

A code drop might help w BM 66

Code drops would help every game

They are releasing so many games (recently with alpha and beta code) that they can no longer meet the future commitments they have made with regard to code updates.

What you see is what you get now with them so only buy based on what you see and not on the blind hope of what will come - those days are over and the most you can expect is that they might get to 1.0 someday. Too many games to have any expectation that a programmer will do it on his own time out of love like was done sometimes in the past.

I'd like to see/read Sterns present but sounds like it was general shop talk.
Given the last year, seems like odd marketing to not address or tease core enthusiasts with news as well as doing their barcade bit.
Look forward to clarity here.

what is considered the best LE stern complete package? Does it compare to the standard edition JJPOTC?

Not the last 24 hours, the last 24 months! They've probably shipped more replacement PF's, probably have dealt with more minor tech. support calls than ever, and the code feedback email inbox is probably full. An operator lost a sale on a used location game to me 2 weeks ago because the cabinet looked like... well below is one of two cracked sides (and it had ghosting to boot).

Kiss, GoT, AS, GB, and SW are fine games, but IMO they don't stack up collectively to the SM, TWD, ST, MET, ACDC era of games, both from a gameplay and QC standpoint. Pre-Spike were the games that really made them kill it for years. But with all the current crap (even if Pinside is a vocal minority), they have to be looking at all sorts of trends since Spike. Did AS and SW really hit sales expectations for 2017? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if they fell a touch short. People really warmed up to DI, meanwhile last I read there was still a local NIB SWLE in stock. With LE's usually being a juggernaut, who would've anticipated SW LE's to be in stock months after release? That's a trend worth noting, and it didn't happen overnight. Another one to follow in the coming years - does any Spike title get its license renewed like MET and ST, or does demand dry up?

One thing any business can do is fight hype with hype. It's quick and can keep money from flowing to the competition. There are so many "pinball dollars" floating around out there. Starving your competition means more of those dollars can float your way. Right now if I were at Stern, I'd be seeing lost revenue floating to a competitor for what's now the 4th time. I'd also see TNA taking in about $1mil in revenue for Spooky. You can either waive goodbye at that money or try to do something about it, and with them probably knowing at least how SOME of the market is perceiving them right now, some positive PR or some freggin' good will to a customer base (that now has at least some options) isn't the worst idea.

Cabinet (resized).jpg

Well,us B66 LE owners are right pissed off at this point over this unfinished code! As of now,I wouldn't buy a nib Stern at all! My B66 LE was busted in the box, delivered that way! My GB Pre worked for 1 week and node board #8 blew! SW does'nt impress me!! No more,no thanks!!!! IMHO.

Stern has pissed on a lot of their customer's heads and people are sick of it, myself included. Seems from all these negative Stern threads lately a lot of other people are too. I didn't watch the whole Stern presentation last night, but from what I saw it was their normal lackadaisical attitude.

I definitely will not be buying a NIB game from them for a long time, if ever again. Although I'm not a fan of the JJPOTC theme, but it looks like it is a great game and I look forward to playing one and would consider buying one long before I considered another Stern purchase. Sorry Stern, but my money will be going to JJP, Spooky, or the secondary market, you had your chance.

Spooky and JJP def crushing this Expo

Not that I don't trust you, but I have played plenty of video games from "legit" studios that were piles of garbage until a few updates hit. Most recent example is Mass Effect Andromeda. Was so bad killed the franchise for the near term. Even now that they have "finished" support it it is full of known/reported bugs.

A year ago both companies showed their new games at expo. Overwhelmingly BM66 was the better received presentation, although not playable, it was promised as the flagship game and would become great.

Fast forward one year, and Dialed In has now proved that it was the better designed and thought out game while BM66 owners are now frustrated over total lack of support and still in beta code even a full year later.

Last night JJP displayed the future of pinball to rave reviews and from what I could see all Stern offered up was excuses.

If things keep going the way they are, we will be talking about the 6k pro market. I'd say 2.5 years

All games have bugs and many bugs are indeed delayed and patched intentionally. Games are not shipped with missing levels and only half the game available to be played. Comparing what Stern is pulling to a bug fix patch is laughable. There are thousands of KS (known shipable) bugs in a game. That just shows the quality of your testing.

That happens and you'll see more and more people jump to JJP standards.

they will probably keep going up too

FYI current cost of a Stern Pro (Spike 2) in EU markets is $7400-7800. LEs run over $12k.

This is made worse by the fact that after $ gains last year, and EU prices going up, it fell back significantly against the € this year, but prices haven't gone down again.** Similar story, though marginally less costly, in Australia, from what I understand.

They're in bigger trouble in overseas markets than the US.

Star Wars has gone down like a lead balloon here, as did Batman.

**This is also true of CGC and JJP games. The prices haven't been readjusted. Though in fairness JJP prices are a lot closer to US than Stern are.

How about not releasing games until they are complete. Every game used to be complete before shipping. What year/game did Stern start sending out games with major pieces of software unfinished?

When it comes to quality vs quantity, quality almost always wins.

If that's that they're saying, that's just a bullshit copout. You don't make super expensive Premiums, LEs, and Super LEs for locations. What happened to the "three legged stool"?

They SHOULD be making quality, tested, finished GAMES....period. That will appeal to all of their markets. Whenever the insinuate that most of the players don't know the difference between good/bad games, that's so shameful....you're a GAME company - take pride in making FUN GAMES.

Right.... because Walmart and dollar stores aren’t doing well selling cheap crap.

POST OF THE YEAR! Nicely done.

Let's not get totally carried away. There's still a sizeable home market that's in at current Stern Pro pricing levels but would never buy a NIB JJP game due to the 40% price spread -- $8900 (shipped) vs. $5200 (shipped) is substantial, regardless of the delta in perceived quality. JJP is intentionally targeting the luxury/high-end segment of the home market, and that's where Stern may have a fight on its hands.

It would be interesting to know what % of Stern's sales (and profits) are home use Pro vs home use LE/Premium. It's the LE/Premium sales they have to worry about, and I'm sure they're keeping an eye on that, especially if recent LEs or Premiums haven't sold as they expected them to.

A little more food for thought.

If it should ever happen that this company does reap what it's sowing and go out of business, then you can almost bet any games that would be made during the last couple years of existence may never and probably will never be finished code wise.

And just think about all of those node boards that may get very hard to replace

Um.....Star Wars owners just got a sizable code update, and it's great! Did you miss that?

Maybe a bit premature.
What this company needs most in my opinion is some fresh ideas and a move towards more customer appreciation.
They appear to be stuck in the "old days".
Eventually, Gary Stern will retire which may shake things up a bit in the company operations department.
Let's hope they stay afloat. Competition is always a good thing.

Used to be you had to burn a new ROM to update your code, and it was a pain in the ass. Once it went to easy USB update it became way more feasible to get lazy and go with the "we'll release more later" mentality.

It's no different than cartridge consoles vs modern gaming, you get the double edged sword that is patching and DLC. It's cool to get more content and get bug fixes, but you also are at the mercy of a system that no longer gives a shit about shipping a final, finished game.

No frying going on over here, with either two I've played.