(Topic ID: 200173)

A dark night for Stern

By jfh

6 years ago


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There are 2,022 posts in this topic. You are on page 13 of 41.
#601 6 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I asked about this, I mean crazy how the upper PF is instantly accessible, unlike Woz or Tspp.
I guess (?) just don’t shoot the ramp if you don’t need to access the upper PF.
Still seems like it can be a neat little PF but I didn’t think I’d want to be up there 20 times a game. AcDc premium lower PF is fun but only in small doses.
I don’t know anything since haven’t watched any videos and don’t know if the rules will make it fun to play all the time or only during certain modes.

Actually, the TSPP upper playfield seems like a great comparison to me. The left ramp will always take you to the upper pf. But yeah, the garage door sometimes requires extra garage door hits, but I don't think it makes that much difference.

The similarity is that you usually need to get the ball up there multiple times before you get all three balls locked to start mb. Especially true with your second and third couch mb's.

If the game made it more difficult to get up there each time, it could become very frustrating if you constantly fail up there, kinda like every player on the recent video from Expo. The players could get a ball up on the upper pf way more often than they ever could shoot the cannon to lock a ball.

It might be a good thing if you can get up easily, but be challenged when you're up there. Kinda like TSPP.

#602 6 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

I wonder if Stern asks the distributors who's buying the machines or are they just concerned with how many are selling?

I'm sure Stern wants to know who is buying their games. Any rational, profit-minded company wants to understand trends in their business so they can plan for the future.

#603 6 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

I'm sure Stern wants to know who is buying their games. Any rational, profit-minded company wants to understand trends in their business so they can plan for the future.

So it's barcades then according to Gary.

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#604 6 years ago
Quoted from damageinc55:

Only because I know the good people at Stern read these threads:
I am new in the hobby, and my first and last NIB was Met pro at about $4,500. Prices above this mark are too high for me and I'll be exploring used titles for the foreseeable future. Consider this a +1 in how many people stopped buying after the recent price hikes.

I previously would have been a first minute buyer of the oft rumored Iron Maiden, but the dizzying combination of price hikes, lack of quality control and a many games seemingly abandoned code wise has made me rethink it. I'll just wait until it (Or any other interesting game) comes on the secondary market and is complete.

So Stern, if you are reading this, $8500 is going to someone else.

#605 6 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

So it's barcades then according to Gary.

I didn't hear his speech. Did he say Stern's customer base is primarily barcades now? That would seem improbable. Or did he say that barcades are the future of the hobby, because that's the way younger people (i.e. younger than 40) are going to learn about pinball? That makes more sense to me.

#606 6 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

POTC is far better than a mediocre game, and has one of the best toys in pinball...even all these years later. You're already prejudging the new game based on the reveal. It's gorgeous, but I was so annoyed by the callouts ("Aarrrrrgh! Ye be warned!") that I had to mute the thing to continue watching with the sound off. Looks to me like it might have an equal chance of providing years and years of annoyance.
I'm going to jump off the hype train and wait and see how things pan out.

I agree with you about POTC being more than mediocre.

But, remember when DI first came out how annoying the constant cell phone ringing was. They fixed that, and they will fix any repetitive call outs in JJPOTC too. The code is supposedly only 20% or so. I am sure they will be adding more call outs.

#607 6 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

If that's true, how are barcades the future? (Unless barcades=showroom)

Because your future isn't just about today. Gary's pitch has always been that location pinball is the 'feeder' that keeps the hobby alive for the next period of time. Not that location pinball is the bulk of the business, but that location pinball is critical to the HEALTH of the business because without it there will be no tomorrow... because the next generation will have no attachment if they weren't exposed to it.

#608 6 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Keith has been clear in the past that he would never turn off upper playfields, for various reasons.
Seems like its best to just accept that this is intentional design and the way they want the game to be played.

That's different. His comments were there in response to people asking to turn flippers off to save the cycles on the mechanisms... where basically his response was "no, because its not worth it vs X, Y, Z". Turning off flippers to force the ball to move off the PF or to negate the ability to play a mode is not the same thing at all.

#609 6 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Because your future isn't just about today. Gary's pitch has always been that location pinball is the 'feeder' that keeps the hobby alive for the next period of time. Not that location pinball is the bulk of the business, but that location pinball is critical to the HEALTH of the business because without it there will be no tomorrow... because the next generation will have no attachment if they weren't exposed to it.

Agreed. But it's going to take more than barcades to get pinball to a healthier tomorrow.

#610 6 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

I didn't hear his speech. Did he say Stern's customer base is primarily barcades now? That would seem improbable. Or did he say that barcades are the future of the hobby, because that's the way younger people (i.e. younger than 40) are going to learn about pinball? That makes more sense to me.

I'm just trying to figure out what percentage of distributor sales are to operators for locations VS directly to home owners and if Stern's claim from the past that only 5% of sales go to home owners is still accurate in 2017.

#611 6 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

I'm just trying to figure out what percentage of distributor sales are to operators for locations VS directly to home owners and if Stern's claim from the past that only 5% of sales go to home owners is still accurate in 2017.

No. Someone said earlier that Gary said last year that 70% of sales went to enthusiasts. So, I'm guessing the actual number is somewhere between 5% and 70%. I'd be willing to bet its > 50%, but have nothing concrete to back that up.

Not sure why Stern guards the percentage of various market segments so much. The only reason that makes sense is to dilute the power of the home owner by perpetuating the fiction that operators still drive the market.

#612 6 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

No. Someone said earlier that Gary said last year that 70% of sales went to enthusiasts. So, I'm guessing the actual number is somewhere between 5% and 70%. I'd be willing to bet its > 50%, but have nothing concrete to back that up.
Not sure why Stern guards the percentage of various market segments so much. The only reason that makes sense is to dilute the power of the home owner by perpetuating the fiction that operators still drive the market.

Why would we expect Stern would share any of this information freely? They're still in a competitive business, and presumably they're only going to share information if it's to their competitive advantage, i.e. they think it will help convince someone to buy machines from them now or in the future. Otherwise they'd just be needlessly tipping their hand to their competitors. And of course inviting all of us Pinside experts to weigh in on their business model.

#613 6 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Not sure why Stern guards the percentage of various market segments so much.

The truth is, they don't know.

They sell games to distributors, the distributors sell the games.

If you buy a game from JJ at Game Exchange, he doesn't ask you what you're doing with it. You could be routing it, or putting it in your barcade, or putting it in your house. He doesn't know. So how would Stern know?

rd

#614 6 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

You could be siting it, or putting it in your boat.

Now we're getting somewhere -- what percentage of pinball machines end up on boats? Gary needs to forget this whole barcade fad and focus on the yacht and cruise-ship markets.

#615 6 years ago
Quoted from LoveNeverDiesGuy:

What's the story on the Stern coffee table book? Was there any resolution during Expo? Did Stern give a statement?

They DID have something to say about it at their seminar. As of Friday night (13 October 2017), the status was that the writer and editors were waiting on various Stern staffers to send in their feedback about a draft of the text that had been sent to them. Of course, that will fuel the speculation about how much Stern is controlling the content, and such speculation belongs in the thread about the book.
.................David Marston

#616 6 years ago

If you mised the Stern talk specifically Gary talking, I thought the quote at 32 minutes was interesting. You typically don't say something unless you either talked about it, thought about it, or said it to somebody else before hand go ahead and take a listen.

https://www.pinballnews.com/site/wp-content/uploads/shows/pinball-expo-2017/audio/stern-pinball-pinball-expo-2017.mp3

The whole panel was quite quiet upon Gary talking at that point when he said it.

#617 6 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

If you mised the Stern talk specifically Gary talking, I thought the quote at 32 minutes was interesting. You typically don't say something unless you either talked about it, thought about it, or said it to somebody else before hand go ahead and take a listen.
https://www.pinballnews.com/site/wp-content/uploads/shows/pinball-expo-2017/audio/stern-pinball-pinball-expo-2017.mp3
The whole panel was quite quiet upon Gary talking at that point when he said it.

I listened at 32 minutes but Gary was just making generic statements about finding titles that appeal to younger players. Was there a specific quote you were thinking of?

#618 6 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Why would we expect Stern would share any of this information freely? They're still in a competitive business, and presumably they're only going to share information if it's to their competitive advantage, i.e. they think it will help convince someone to buy machines from them now or in the future. Otherwise they'd just be needlessly tipping their hand to their competitors. And of course inviting all of us Pinside experts to weigh in on their business model.

I don't buy this at all. We are talking broad brush strokes for the same customer categories Gary uses all the time. A pie chart with the percentages by category doesn't give any good competitor information their own market research shouldn't already have.

#619 6 years ago

Just checking the front page of Pinside and there are 43,324 members. Understandable that not everyone is an active member or hobbyist here and there are collectors that don't frequent the forum. The home market has to be more than 5% right?

#620 6 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

I don't buy this at all. We are talking broad brush strokes for the same customer categories Gary uses all the time. A pie chart with the percentages by category doesn't give any good competitor information their own market research shouldn't already have.

OK, even if you're right and sharing broad demographic information wouldn't be potentially useful to Stern's competitors, why would they want to share that information? I'm probably as curious as you are about it, but then again I'd also love to know their sales figures broken out by game for the past five years. There's no clear reason for Stern to share any of that with any of us.

#621 6 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

The truth is, they don't know.
They sell games to distributors, the distributors sell the games.
If you buy a game from JJ at Game Exchange, he doesn't ask you what you're doing with it. You could be routing it, or putting it in your barcade, or putting it in your house. He doesn't know. So how would Stern know?

This is probably much closer to the truth. JJ's pretty sharp - he can probably guess.

But when was the last time you got a customer survey request from your distributor or Stern after you bought a new game? Stern got email addresses from many Batman buyers for the Commissioner Gordon list. What did Stern do with that?

If Stern doesn't let us know they know who their own customer bases are, then how can members of those bases have faith that Stern understands them?

I guarantee Stern has detailed info on what and how distributors buy. That seems to be the only market analytics Stern cares about. From their standpoint, any analysis of who actually buys the games to use belongs to the distributor.

I think that is very short sighted, but it sure seems to be the case.

#622 6 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

OK, even if you're right and sharing broad demographic information wouldn't be potentially useful to Stern's competitors, why would they want to share that information?

Because then we have context as to what they are doing (or might be expected to do) for various market segments. Maybe that information can help potential buyers expand THEIR businesses, which, in theory, helps drive future sales.

If it's seen as "good" information, it's bragging rights that can be used for marketing. (Why announce the 40% growth figure? It sounds impressive, even without context).

It's more "why WOULDN'T they want to share that information?" and the answer would be primarily "Because it's negative or doesn't fit the narrative we want you to believe".

#623 6 years ago

Gary Stern is going to say exactly what he thinks will sell more games. Truth is completely irrelevant.

#624 6 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

If you mised the Stern talk specifically Gary talking, I thought the quote at 32 minutes was interesting. You typically don't say something unless you either talked about it, thought about it, or said it to somebody else before hand go ahead and take a listen.
https://www.pinballnews.com/site/wp-content/uploads/shows/pinball-expo-2017/audio/stern-pinball-pinball-expo-2017.mp3
The whole panel was quite quiet upon Gary talking at that point when he said it.

It was almost like Gary realized they could strip SW of toys and it would still sell massively......hmmmmmmmm

#625 6 years ago

I live in a community of about 100,000 people. I am aware of less than 20 pins on location and have only ever seen 4 newer games on location in the past 5 years: WOZ standard, Mustang Premium, Ghostbusters LE and BM66 Premium. I have 15 machines in my basement and know other collectors with 3, about 6 and over 20 and a few people with one pin. I am fairly sure I am aware of at least 90% of the pins on location and maybe about 10% of the pins in homes. Basically I estimate the ratio to be around 20 to 1 in homes versus on route in my area. Maybe that is atypical but I doubt it.

Now I understand that this thread is talking about NIB games. I have purchased 5 of those, am not aware of any other collectors buying NIB and have seen the 4 above that I believe were probably brand new games at the time they were put on route. Small sample size but I think that home buyers likely make up over 50% of NIB purchases and over 90% of used game ownership.

#626 6 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

If you mised the Stern talk specifically Gary talking, I thought the quote at 32 minutes was interesting. You typically don't say something unless you either talked about it, thought about it, or said it to somebody else before hand go ahead and take a listen.
https://www.pinballnews.com/site/wp-content/uploads/shows/pinball-expo-2017/audio/stern-pinball-pinball-expo-2017.mp3
The whole panel was quite quiet upon Gary talking at that point when he said it.

lol when he said

"What is a more universal title than Star Wars... it is the title of all titles and put a little Williams music in it and you could have an empty box and..." and catches himself haha

#627 6 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Agreed. But it's going to take more than barcades to get pinball to a healthier tomorrow.

Don't disagree - but people are cherry picking comments to try to steer things to false conclusion. Gary has said location pinball is important to the long term health of the industry (and home market) - not that Barcades ARE the dominate market. And too many customers think the market is defined by THEIR wants... instead of accepting there are multiple market segments.

Gary's pitch is "while you basement collector may not want a Pro level machine, its critical to the long term success of everyone that there is a machine on location today... so that later someone may want that game or something more. Just putting games in basements today, is not a sustainable model for the future." - That's his pitch... that you can't just focus on the home buyer if you want buyers in the future... because so much of the motivation to shell out for a game is based on past experiences.

Where Gary maybe wrong is... Maybe buyers in the future will buy without any nostalgia ties. Maybe pinball gets strong enough, enough buyers will buy without past exposure... or market penetration is enough people don't need exposure from public venues but will get it peer to peer. That's the unknown.. but Gary is pitching that they NEED to keep games out on location for EVERYONE's benefit.. as that's the feeder to the rest of market.

I think it's more about "You can't just focus on 12k machines... we need operator machines too". And Gary believes a bit part of an "operator machine" is the price point, and is willing to sacrifice the player, to make that happen.

#628 6 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Gary's pitch has always been that location pinball is the 'feeder' that keeps the hobby alive for the next period of time.

I didn’t find pinball because I played it on location- that’s how I started collecting classic arcade video. I found pinball through other collectors who also had pinball. I’d never played pinball prior to 1995.

So Gary might be wrong.

#629 6 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

I didn’t find pinball because I played it on location- that’s how I started collecting classic arcade video. I found pinball through other collectors who also had pinball. I’d never played pinball prior to 1995. So Gary might be wrong.

So the "Stern Army" should be encouraging people to collect classic arcade video games and hope that they branch out into pinball instead of pachinko? Not sure that's a winning strategy. Also, your "pinball conversion" story is twenty years old, probably not what most people have in mind by "new blood."

#630 6 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Don't disagree - but people are cherry picking comments to try to steer things to false conclusion.

Kind of like Gary did in his talk.

It was almost all about beer and barcades. There was no balance in his comments, almost nothing regarding any other market segment and absolutely nothing proactive on topics Stern had to know were of interest to those in the room.

#631 6 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Kind of like Gary did in his talk.
It was almost all about beer and barcades. There was no balance in his comments, almost nothing regarding any other market segment and absolutely nothing proactive on topics Stern had to know were of interest to those in the room.

Just listened to the first half of the speech. The content wasn't so bad (but also wasn't especially exciting) as much as the lack of preparation. He admitted he had not seen the speech he was given and was just winging it from the slides. That would explain why it was so bad and why he latched on to one topic (beer) and ran with it. Really amateur for the market leader.

The "speech" was mostly big picture industry stuff, but I think Expo has now shifted to a more consumer focus, which he didn't address at all (and probably couldn't off the top of his head anyway - "bro, do you even pinball"). They could have 2 separate presentations- an industry focused one and a consumer focused one.

#632 6 years ago

Pinball guys are the absolute worst presenters I've ever seen

They don't even try and make it fun and interesting

At least JJP mixed it up a bit with the reveal of POTC and had the investor there

#633 6 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Pinball guys are the absolute worst....

Star wipe and scene

#634 6 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

No. Someone said earlier that Gary said last year that 70% of sales went to enthusiasts. So, I'm guessing the actual number is somewhere between 5% and 70%. I'd be willing to bet its > 50%, but have nothing concrete to back that up.
Not sure why Stern guards the percentage of various market segments so much. The only reason that makes sense is to dilute the power of the home owner by perpetuating the fiction that operators still drive the market.

Yeah I searched for the video a little last night. Only thing I found is where he says in the USA the home market may be more then half. He does say that combined over half his business is commercial. I do know that he has stated it was over 70% in the USA on another speech but I doubt I am going to look for it anymore. The point is both the home buyer and the operator should be equally important to their bottom line IMO.

Heard here after 4:00 in

19
#635 6 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

so you can spend $4700 for a mediocre game at best or $9500 for a machine that will provide years and years of entertainment for all....pretty easy decision in my book....

for 9500. I can buy 10 games that would provide years and years of entertainment, and have. How much you paid for something, has absolutely no reflection on if it's enjoyable or not. I have bought plenty of $400-500 games that are 20x's more fun than a lot of $2000-7500 games.

#636 6 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Now we're getting somewhere -- what percentage of pinball machines end up on boats? Gary needs to forget this whole barcade fad and focus on the yacht and cruise-ship markets.

I think they would know if they were made for cruise ships or yachts as the pinball machines on those, are set on a gyro system, so the playfield remains level even thou the ship is rocking back and forth. I'm sure there are limitation to how far the playfield can swivel, and does effect the ball in severe weather.

#637 6 years ago

I wish Williams would come back to Pinball...

12
#638 6 years ago

Meanwhile there's already a hype thread for the next Stern game which hasn't even been announced. The shiny will wear off JJPOTC, it will become just another game (looks like a good one) and the cycle will repeat.

End of the day not that many people can afford $9k+ games.

#639 6 years ago
Quoted from dmarston:

They DID have something to say about it at their seminar. As of Friday night (13 October 2017), the status was that the writer and editors were waiting on various Stern staffers to send in their feedback about a draft of the text that had been sent to them. Of course, that will fuel the speculation about how much Stern is controlling the content, and such speculation belongs in the thread about the book.
.................David Marston

Thank you David for answering. If you go to the audio of the seminar, the question was asked and answered at the 49:00 mark.

#640 6 years ago
Quoted from Davidus56:

I wish Williams would come back to Pinball...

They have, JJP is channeling Williams.

#641 6 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

I didn’t find pinball because I played it on location- that’s how I started collecting classic arcade video. I found pinball through other collectors who also had pinball. I’d never played pinball prior to 1995.
So Gary might be wrong.

There are a number of the collectors in our area that are straight up converts from Vids. Most convert almost fully... tho some remain a portion of their Vids.

I personally think more and more players are discovering the hobby through virtual pinball and peers.. but I still think a lot of that comes from the arcade classics.. and not just 'any pinball'.

I do like that Gary keeps the 'long view' in things... even if I don't agree with all of his choices along the way.

#642 6 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

I didn’t find pinball because I played it on location- that’s how I started collecting classic arcade video. I found pinball through other collectors who also had pinball. I’d never played pinball prior to 1995.
So Gary might be wrong.

Same here.

#643 6 years ago

I would have agreed with this post initially but found the subsequent night that was an all-out Stern party to be quite entertaining and engaging. In fact, having vintage Sterns on hand makes me wonder if they are finally actually considering doing some vault editions of the classics (the real classics, not TSPP or something newer). I say all this as a complete non-fanboy.

Stern knows that the majority of Expo peeps are collectors and is still maintaining a presence to engage that community. If they didn't, they'd just go to bar and various restaurant expos (they're out there and are the quickest way to reach owner/operators). Sure Stern is definitely lagging in the customer support and respect arena (that's me putting it generously), and I've never been impressed with Gary as anything other than a shrewd businessman, but I def think that they are still in the biz to make the best games they can for the biggest margin (that's what all manufacturers are doing---regardless of how passionate they are about the particular field they are in).

Like McDonalds, the #1 competitor is always the easiest target. There's a lot of good going on w Stern right now (great licenses we've been wanting for years, non-Photoslopped playfield art, and technological advances to make for more engaging and reliable games) besides the legit horror stories we hear. While I agree that crap like unfinished code, ghosting inserts, and warped playfields is completely unacceptable, I also don't want to overgeneralize an entire company and all of its passionate designers, illustrators, programmers, assembly line workers, etc.

#644 6 years ago
Quoted from seshpilot:

In fact, having vintage Sterns on hand makes me wonder if they are finally actually considering doing some vault editions of the classics (the real classics, not TSPP or something newer)

They've done that for years. Don't read too much into it.

#645 6 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

They've done that for years. Don't read too much into it.

I know, but I also overheard a few interesting conversations that did make me hope this go round

#646 6 years ago

Is there a link to Gary Stern’s presentation from this year? I can’t seem to find one.

#647 6 years ago
Quoted from seshpilot:

I know, but I also overheard a few interesting conversations that did make me hope this go round

At Pro pricing this would be great. TNA has proven new takes on old games can work, and I would think Stern could easily broaden their offering to include some of their classics. Sure its been speculated for a while, but the market is so strong at the moment, now is the time to do it.

#649 6 years ago
Quoted from crwjumper:

Is there a link to Gary Stern’s presentation from this year? I can’t seem to find one.

Quoted from mnpinball:

If you mised the Stern talk specifically Gary talking, I thought the quote at 32 minutes was interesting. You typically don't say something unless you either talked about it, thought about it, or said it to somebody else before hand go ahead and take a listen.
https://www.pinballnews.com/site/wp-content/uploads/shows/pinball-expo-2017/audio/stern-pinball-pinball-expo-2017.mp3
The whole panel was quite quiet upon Gary talking at that point when he said it.

#650 6 years ago
Quoted from seshpilot:

I would have agreed with this post initially but found the subsequent night that was an all-out Stern party to be quite entertaining and engaging. In fact, having vintage Sterns on hand makes me wonder if they are finally actually considering doing some vault editions of the classics (the real classics, not TSPP or something newer).

I think all the older pins came from Logan Arcade (aka Logan Hardware), who was listed as a co-presenter.
.................David Marston

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