have you played any of them? My wife and Kid loved JP. Great toy, great rules, and easy to understand layout. Just because it doesn't have the flashy blinky lights and pretty colors, doesn't mean it's not fun.

Well, thats a horse of a different color....

Obviously games you wont play are bad buys regardless of the "deal/price"

"Most" people's tastes in pinball aren't so narrowly focused that there's only ONE GAME they would ever be attracted to.... but who knows- perhaps WoZ will change that.

I'm still amazed at how many cool looking games I've NEVER seen in the wild and still have never played. Granted I live in a "desert of pinball arcades" here in NC, but still...

I think he needs to have the family play more games at more peoples houses and shows. You'd be surprised what the family clings to. For me, I thought CV and TOTAN would be the wife and kids favorites, since they are colorful and beautiful games. Nope. Wifes favorite was TAF. Kids favorite seemed to be AC/DC. Totan was enjoyed by them as well. CV ended up just being my favorite only. RFM is a crowd pleaser as well.

As others have said, for $7500 you could buy five great games if you include older SS or em games. For many of us though, space is a big issue. Also, if you've played/owned the older games already and just want something new you have to pay the going rate.

So, I think it's more appropriate to compare the relative values of one new game to another new game.

To compare the relative values of one new game to x number of old games is a different argument, IMHO.

I understand what you are saying, but are you sure of the facts? For example, the cost of health insurance has skyrocketed, and unless these pinball companies are not providing the insurance, that will factor into overall costs. I would bet that labor costs have gone up in more ways than one in the last few years. I know our graduates here at the university are getting offers that have gone up each of the last couple years (granted they are not working in a factory). JJP (and I believe Stern) has arguably upped their game on quality of the playfield, toys, etc. That has got to increase costs. Does that mean that profit has decreased ... no. But, I would bet that costs have gone up. Too bad they are not public companies, then we would know for sure.

I have tried many many times with many different manufacturers. I've had A titles in the house, like MM, TAF, MB, IJ, FH, Whitewater, CFTBL, LOTR, etc.. I've had SS, EMs, nothing did anything for her.(my wife) I've taken her to lots of locations. Nothing. I didn't expect anything different when I took her to my local distributor either. They had all the latest stern titles there last December. She didn't like any of them. She played one game on the proto WOZ there, and I couldn't get her off for 40 minutes. I don't understand it, and I'm not going to try. I just accept it and move on. For whatever reason she loves the pin, which is really weird cause she hates the movie. She doesn't like pinball period, at least not until last December. What works for me is I also tried WOZ ( after waiting 40 minutes) and I had fun, albeit I could see it was not even close to being finished. I learned a long time ago, not to try to understand my wife. Her logic and my logic are not aligned, however I love her to death. Again your mileage may vary.

Agreed. I envy you guys with room for a basement full of pins. Our basements in Tennessee are ... well, pretty much nonexistent. I have to stick pins in the upstairs gameroom, which leaves me room for 2 perhaps 3 if I don't mind getting the silent treatment for a while.

You're being generous here, I would say the latest Stern titles are closer to 75% the machine TSPP is. Just take a moment to objectively compare the features.

At least JJP is putting out a machine that's closer to 125% the machine TSPP is (maybe even more?).

Of course, this doesn't equate to more fun but it's certainly more expensive to manufacture.

Hey, at least you have an upstairs!

Touché!

Of course it sounds pretty good until you try to lug a 350lb STTNG up stairs with a 90 degree angle.

You're correct. I was mostly referring to where games like AFM, MM and MB are trending. Even games like SM and LOTR are fetching 5k and that is for games out of the box.

Being in a Neo thread lends oneself to exaggeration.

I agree TSPP has a ton of stuff on it everywhere and the newer Stern titles look like a barren wasteland compared to those early years. They are a lot better now, than they were during the RS, IM, NBA and BBH era tho. Those are the econo years of Stern. Like the AFM time for B/W.

Agreed, and I'm glad to see Stern continuing to improve their games.

AFM is a great example that a game doesn't need to have a ton of stuff in it to be good. When it first came out I avoided it because the playfield looked so empty. Once I gave it a try though, I was surprised at how much fun it was.

It really demonstrated to me how much sound, humor and rules can contribute to the fun of a game.

I can't get into AFM, because it's so empty and cheap looking. Any corner that could be cut, was on that game. I prefer RFM anyway. But i'm not a big fan of those games where the rules are. Shoot all over the place until you hit each of those shots 4 times, type games.

Sounds like you've done your homework and its probably a no-brainer purchase for your household...

Enjoy

The good news is, if she LOVES the game and you LIKE it, the game *should* only improve from what you've seen so far....

I agree 100 percent with this post. All the great games I like have great sound and humor. It doesn't have to have a packed playfield. I guess it is individuals preferences.

And... for $7500, you can still get an AFM!

Legs Sold Separately, Batteries Not Included, Some Assembly Required,...

Continuing this line of thinking one step further.....

If we do not consider the intangibles like theme, programming, sound and playfield layout, as these things are subjective.

Instead, if we just look at what is going into the machine and conservatively say the JJP standard is about 130% of the latest Stern premium. Then, if Stern premium is $6000, the WOZ standard should be comparably valued at $6000x1.30=$7800.

Or conversely, if JJP standard is $7000 then Stern premium should be $7000/1.3 = $5385.

Note, I did not include the LE editions because more of their value is based on intangibles.

Currently my BOM comparison puts WOZ at about 140-150% of ACDC Premium simply from playfield features, and by the time you take into account the LCD, RGB lighting, construction quality and so forth... even more.

Interestingly, the BOM comparison for Metallica LE doesn't end up being any more than ACDC LE - just used better.

Not to mention the additional expense of a widebody versus a standard body. I just wanted to show that if you go beyond things that are subjective, even a conservative estimate makes a JJP machine look like a better value.

A more realistic estimate might cause people to start picking apart the numbers.

Your numbers are skewed for the fact that Stern machines would still have the Full version around $4400 right now if it wasn't for Jacks $6500 price announcement. So the proper pricing if you feel jacks game is 130% of a Stern. It should be based upon what the normal current Stern price would have been at this point.

Long, boring post ahead...

You keep saying that like Stern issued a press release announcing that they were raising their prices to better compete with JJP... except that that kind of thing only works with cable TV and cell phone companies!

However, I do believe your premise is flawed. You say Stern would have a "full version" now for $4400 if not for Jack. I'm going to assume by "full" you mean games like BDK, SM, LOTR, and so forth.

But what about the pricing model that Stern already estabilished when they released the stripped-down Iron Man a year before Jack announced his company? A little RGP digging shows the street price of Iron Man to be about $4200 at the time, but I'm going to lowball it at $4000 for this argument.

Using my BOM (Bill of Materials - specifically for the playfield) method, a game like BDK, SM and TSPP has roughly 1/3rd more "stuff" than a stripped game like Iron Man and the other Pros (heck, it's literally 2/3rds more stuff than a Rolling Stones Pro). So, if Stern kept up the same "value-per-dollar" estabilished before JJP, a "full" version of Iron Man would be priced 33% higher at... $5320. Which is - quite interestingly - almost exactly what the "full" Avatar LE was priced at before JJP came around (I see $5200 street price), and then the same for Tron LE a few months after Jack announced. Granted those are LEs, but you didn't have any choice if you wanted the "full" game.

Now, I know these BOM percentages sound entirely arbitrary, but I have actually taken the time to work this out for WOZ and about a half dozen Stern games, and the BOM increases I show are mirrored almost exactly by Stern's price increases.

So, we've estabilished that Stern would very likely charge $5200 for their "full" games even without Jack around. Now, the newer Premiums/LEs do have roughly 25% more "stuff" than those former "full" games, which would place Stern's price for a Premium/LE at... $6500. Until Metallica, that's in the ball park of what they were charging, right? Up to $6900 for an LE, maybe a thousand less for Premium?

How can Jack actually be to blame for Stern not selling the Premiums at $4400 when the "value for dollar" that Stern is currently using was already set into motion long before Jack ever came around? I feel that the real blame falls on the investors who had Stern slash their bill of materials without decreasing their prices. Ever since then, Stern has not re-adjusted their profit margins, and the result of adding those features back and then some is the prices we see today.

While I do believe that Stern took note that people actually bought WOZ at $6500, Jack priced a luxury product at a luxury price. How ironic is it that the luxury product is also now the value leader?

Let's use $6200 as Stern's price for a Premium machine like AC/DC Premium. Using the BOM method, WOZ has roughly 54% more "stuff" than that AC/DC Premium (not counting topper, 150 RGB LED lighting system, 26" LCD, higher quality materials and so forth). Based on that, if Stern were producing WOZ... they would likely price it at $9500. $7000 seems like a bargain, huh? My estimates go beyond $11,000 based on Metallica's new price point.

But then again, since people are still buying at Stern's new prices, perhaps they are just fine after all. Frankly, I'm not at all looking forward to seeing what Star Trek rings up at...

You can't argue too much with facts...

Plus, how is it anyone's *fault* for selling their product at the highest price they can?

I don't think my numbers are skewed because I'm not talking about what could have, would have or should have been.

I'm talking about the way things are at present.