(Topic ID: 47829)

.95 on woz at PATZ!


By jamespin

6 years ago



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    #51 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    Actually I stick up for Jack more than most in the WOZ threads. Am I getting a WOZ. No. Theme does nothing for me. Doesn't mean I don't like some of his ideas. And I was all about getting a hobbit, until he lost his mind and jacked the price up $1000 from preorder WOZ was. Which is bad business on his part. Get $1000 more out of people for the ones he has, or get 80% more sales by lowering the price to $6500 preorder. Gee, not difficult. And if Jack thinks he's not losing 80% of the sales around here, he needs to come over here like a politician and take a poll, because many have said no way now. But Jack always knows best and everything he does is awesome. He tells us every seminar.

    You did not answer the question that I called you on. Are you sure everything has been revealed?

    #52 6 years ago

    yup. Everything physical on the game, i've seen before I even saw the game in person. So yes. Every little trick was revealed along the way.

    #53 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    you guys really want an update on every little tiny aspect of everything that is added and done? There will be no element of surprise for those that ordered the game. You'll see and know everything before it even shows up. It's like seeing your xmas presents before you get to open them for real. It's not as exciting. For those of you that buy before you play (which I highly do not recommend), isn't that the whole point is the surprise element? WOZ has none of that anymore.

    It does for some.

    #54 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    And I was all about getting a hobbit, until he lost his mind and jacked the price up $1000 from preorder WOZ was. Which is bad business on his part. Get $1000 more out of people for the ones he has, or get 80% more sales by lowering the price to $6500 preorder. Gee, not difficult. And if Jack thinks he's not losing 80% of the sales around here, he needs to come over here like a politician and take a poll, because many have said no way now.

    Nice...pulling percentages out of your @$$

    I don't think price has much to do with Hobbit pre-order decisions...I think the top 3 are:

    1.) WOZ hasn't even shipped yet.
    2.) Not even starting the design of Hobbit yet.
    3.) Game won't be out till mid/late 2014 (maybe? lol).

    People are blowing each others heads off for Metallica LEs @ 8k, 9k....doubt many sales will be lost on Hobbit at a higher price IF the game is cool as f*ck....but right now? Too much of an unknown for that many people to get excited about.

    #55 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    Actually I stick up for Jack more than most in the WOZ threads. Am I getting a WOZ. No. Theme does nothing for me. Doesn't mean I don't like some of his ideas. And I was all about getting a hobbit, until he lost his mind and jacked the price up $1000 from preorder WOZ was. Which is bad business on his part. Get $1000 more out of people for the ones he has, or get 80% more sales by lowering the price to $6500 preorder. Gee, not difficult. And if Jack thinks he's not losing 80% of the sales around here, he needs to come over here like a politician and take a poll, because many have said no way now. But Jack always knows best and everything he does is awesome. He tells us every seminar.

    Neo since I don't know and you seem to be a self professed expert, what is the profit margin on this game? It must cost boat load to build a company from the ground up, my guess is that JJP will be in the red for quite some time but I defer to your expertise ............................

    #57 6 years ago

    back to the PATZ thread, can someone explain to me the rules of WoZ that was there? What am I supposed to do? Jpop

    #58 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    yup. Everything physical on the game, i've seen before I even saw the game in person. So yes. Every little trick was revealed along the way.

    Incorrect again. Please stop spreading misinformation.

    #59 6 years ago
    Quoted from playernumber4:

    You JJP naysayers just never give up do you? Why do you want to see JJP fail so badly? If JJP had not gotten jumped in to fill a void in the marketplace you would still be playing stripped down games like Austin Powers under different titles. Stern was not about to kick up the quality of their games or designs as they cheapened them right up to selling "the pin" at Sears until JJP came into the market and gave them some real competition for their dollars.
    I don't care who wins because WE as the consumers are the big winner here even with the prices having gone up as much as they have. If you have a hard on to see JJP crash keep it to yourself and the few people on these forums who agree with you. You will be outnumbered by the majority of the pinball fans who want to see the hobby stay alive and progress.

    \

    "JJP naysayers"??? I have one purchased, and have been waiting eagerly for its release. Because I question yet ANOTHER "we're almost there" type of comment, given what has transpired, is hardly me nay saying. I would love pinchroma to be right, and said that. Its just a little hard to take anyone's word that this is the case - yet again.

    Do you have one on order? I think those that do, and have paid money for this, have more of a right to comment on anything over those that do not. My comments were not even negative about JJP. I, much like 95% of the other buyers, only fail to believe any dates, and are running on the "I'll believe when I see it" philosophy now.

    There is nothing negative about JJP from me, I think it has the potential to be the greatest machine made.

    #60 6 years ago
    Quoted from Atomicboy:

    \
    "JJP naysayers"??? I have one purchased, and have been waiting eagerly for its release. Because I question yet ANOTHER "we're almost there" type of comment, given what has transpired, is hardly me nay saying. I would love pinchroma to be right, and said that. Its just a little hard to take anyone's word that this is the case - yet again.
    Do you have one on order? I think those that do, and have paid money for this, have more of a right to comment on anything over those that do not. My comments were not even negative about JJP. I, much like 95% of the other buyers, only fail to believe any dates, and are running on the "I'll believe when I see it" philosophy now.
    There is nothing negative about JJP from me, I think it has the potential to be the greatest machine made.

    I don't deal in propaganda Not my style. Game is shipping REAL REAL REAL REAL soon.

    #61 6 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    I don't deal in propaganda Not my style. Game is shipping REAL REAL REAL REAL soon.

    Ok, I'll remember this post I would love nothing more than to be talking about it in two weeks after playing it in my gamesroom for a couple hours.

    #62 6 years ago

    CaptainNeo. Not to be a jerk but man you talk so much trash on so many threads. Lighten up man or take a break. If your not in on WOZ or Hobbit then let it go. What do you care for?
    Life's too short.

    #63 6 years ago

    Wonder if when the game ships how the software will be. I am anxious to play one with more in depth software; as it stand right now it is unfair to judge the game with the software it has other then how it physically plays

    #64 6 years ago

    Agreed.

    #65 6 years ago

    Sad. I thought this was a thread to discuss the new finds in .95..?

    Also, *funny* how people chime in to tell others that they are wrong about specific details, but will not provide ANY details to the contrary.

    #66 6 years ago
    Quoted from musketd:

    Wonder if when the game ships how the software will be. I am anxious to play one with more in depth software; as it stand right now it is unfair to judge the game with the software it has other then how it physically plays

    Have you not done that in previous threads?

    #67 6 years ago

    I played it at PATZ for the 1st time and have to tell you all that just the way it stands right now I am considering selling my TZ that I have had for over 8 yrs to help fund it. Had several nice long talks with Jack about what to look forward to in the final code and can't wait to play it then.

    #68 6 years ago
    Quoted from MrDo:

    Sad. I thought this was a thread to discuss the new finds in .95..?
    Also, *funny* how people chime in to tell others that they are wrong about specific details, but will not provide ANY details to the contrary.

    That's because I CAN'T and you know that. But he is incorrect. Simple as that and It will be obvious soon enough.

    #69 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Nice...pulling percentages out of your @$$
    I don't think price has much to do with Hobbit pre-order decisions...I think the top 3 are:
    1.) WOZ hasn't even shipped yet.
    2.) Not even starting the design of Hobbit yet.
    3.) Game won't be out till mid/late 2014 (maybe? lol).
    People are blowing each others heads off for Metallica LEs @ 8k, 9k....doubt many sales will be lost on Hobbit at a higher price IF the game is cool as f*ck....but right now? Too much of an unknown for that many people to get excited about.

    Dude, I'm not pulling this out of my ass. You don't think all of us pin collectors around the area talk to each other? We have a fairly big collector group over here in WI. Out of the 14 of us that buy NIB and were going to buy hobbit. After the price was released, only 2 are still buying it. THe other 12 of us said we were out. And all were out because of the $7500 price announcement. That's little more than 80% but I just rounded it off. So around here it's 80% sales lost.

    So it comes down to, does jack want to make that extra $2000 off those 2 people. Or get 12 more sales by lowering the price Back to $6500. Because through group discussion, we would all have been in at the $6500 price point. I'm not stating this as opinion. THIS IS FACT.

    #70 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    Dude, I'm not pulling this out of my ass. You don't think all of us pin collectors around the area talk to each other? We have a fairly big collector group over here in WI. Out of the 14 of us that buy NIB and were going to buy hobbit. After the price was released, only 2 are still buying it. THe other 12 of us said we were out. And all were out because of the $7500 price announcement. That's little more than 80% but I just rounded it off. So around here it's 80% sales lost.
    So it comes down to, does jack want to make that extra $2000 off those 2 people. Or get 12 more sales by lowering the price Back to $6500. Because through group discussion, we would all have been in at the $6500 price point. I'm not stating this as opinion. THIS IS FACT.

    OK, your little bubble of collector snobs represents the entire spectrum of pinball buyers.

    Except not.

    Once again - Metallica proves that a badass looking game that ships soon will sell easily for $7500+. If Jack released full playfield & toy pics and it was shipping within a few months, I'm sure PLENTY of people would have no problem dropping the cash.

    #71 6 years ago

    I said it was my immediate area. So it's a sample of the demographic. You take a small sample as a test to have an idea on the large range of effects. You think TV shows are picked by counting each and every person that actually watches? So if my area is any indication to the thoughts of the masses, Jack is screwing himself out of a lot of sales. Might not be 80% like it is around here, but I bet it's close to 50% across the country. Talking with lots of people at Pinburgh about it, the census seems to be similar, as people from Pinburgh are across every state you can think of, and many said the same thing. Seems $6500 was the cutoff for most people.

    #72 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    So it comes down to, does jack want to make that extra $2000 off those 2 people. Or get 12 more sales by lowering the price Back to $6500. Because through group discussion, we would all have been in at the $6500 price point.

    You're assuming he *CAN* bring the price down $1000...

    After spending a few years developing and manufacturing WOZ, JJP might have also found this whole undertaking was costlier than he first estimated. Or slower than he expected...TH might also have higher licensing costs?

    At any rate, my point is we cant assume he's simply adding $1000 to the profit line, he may have had to increase the price to keep things afloat...

    I think if WoZ is a revolutionary, blockbuster success, people wont sweat the $1000 for TH. Look at how much people spending modding NIB machines right now (toppers, toy mods, led upgrades, sound upgrades, headphone jacks, beer cup holders, etc, etc).

    METLE has certainly proven that there is an appetite for pinball at higher price points...

    #73 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    Seems $6500 was the cutoff for most people.

    That is my personal cutoff right now but there are still a lot of games selling about that. The newest release shows that.

    #74 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    I said it was my immediate area. So it's a sample of the demographic. You take a small sample as a test to have an idea on the large range of effects. You think TV shows are picked by counting each and every person that actually watches? So if my area is any indication to the thoughts of the masses, Jack is screwing himself out of a lot of sales. Might not be 80% like it is around here, but I bet it's close to 50% across the country. Talking with lots of people at Pinburgh about it, the census seems to be similar, as people from Pinburgh are across every state you can think of, and many said the same thing. Seems $6500 was the cutoff for most people.

    So, you're completely ignoring the fact that 500 Metallica's sold for ~$7500. Why does Hobbit have a cutoff but Metallica doesn't? Oh, I dunno...cuz for every person like you who has a cutoff (and reminds us about it 1000 times a day), there are plenty of people who don't have a cutoff and will pay $7500 for a cool machine. Metallica proves that. So, Metallica-logic shows that if Hobbit was actually designed and had pictures, people would spend the money.

    #75 6 years ago

    I think that right around $6500 is the median price for a NIB game that people are going to want. The Stern LE editions will be $7500 plus and the premium editions will be street priced at $6500 before the fall. If the amount of disparity between the LE/premium editions compared with the pro editions continues, the lowest end machines will barely hold their value which can be seen now (except for Tron). The world of the $6500 NIB machine standard is right around the corner and I don't see the prices going down one bit especially with the pre-order fun happening right now.

    I think there will be even more demand for Star Trek. In fact, I can only imagine the kind of jockey'ng, kick-backs, greased palms happening right now so people have a precious LE game when the music stops at any price.

    Greed is in full bloom. Gordon Gecko would be proud.

    -1
    #76 6 years ago

    most of those metallica buyers are flippers hoping to cash in later down the road. Hoping for another BIB or Tron LE situation. If people were going to take a loss on those and knew it, like usually NIB does, there would be a lot of them sitting. People are taking a gamble. But with Hobbit there are 1500 LE's. Not a small run by any means, which also means you don't have the hurry up and buy one fenzy hoping there won't be enough and you can cash out down the road. Jacks pushing the envelope to see how far he can go before people stop buying, and Stern is doing the same thing. You guys are showing Stern they can go farther with stupid buying practices like these. Keep it going. Kudos to you. I want to see if pinsiders can get it to the 10k mark by the end of 2014. I know you can do it. Good for you guys.

    -1
    #77 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    most of those metallica buyers are flippers hoping to cash in later down the road. Hoping for another BIB or TRON LE situation. If people were going to take a loss on those and knew it, like usually NIB does, there would be a lot of them sitting. People are taking a gamble. But with Hobbit there are 1500 LE's. Not a small run by any means, which also means you don't have the hurry up and buy one fenzy hoping there won't be enough and you can cash out down the road. Jacks pushing the envelope to see how far he can go before people stop buying, and Stern is doing the same thing. You guys are showing Stern they can go farther with stupid buying practices like these. Keep it going. Kudos to you. I want to see if pinsiders can get it to the 10k mark by the end of 2014. I know you can do it. Good for you guys.

    I'm not saying it's right. I'm just stating the facts that people will buy expensive games. You and your buddies and your buying habits aren't the "Nielsen Ratings" of pinball....but please, keep posting about how stupid we all are, how we're all flippers, and how we're all going to lose money. It's so interesting every time you do it.

    #78 6 years ago

    I didn't say we determine the overall. I'm just saying taking the sample of my area, which is what I have to go by. If the rest of the country is anything close to that, Jack is missing out big time.

    #79 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    most of those metallica buyers are flippers hoping to cash in later down the road. Hoping for another BIB or TRON LE situation. If people were going to take a loss on those and knew it, like usually NIB does, there would be a lot of them sitting. People are taking a gamble. But with Hobbit there are 1500 LE's. Not a small run by any means, which also means you don't have the hurry up and buy one fenzy hoping there won't be enough and you can cash out down the road. Jacks pushing the envelope to see how far he can go before people stop buying, and Stern is doing the same thing. You guys are showing Stern they can go farther with stupid buying practices like these. Keep it going. Kudos to you. I want to see if pinsiders can get it to the 10k mark by the end of 2014. I know you can do it. Good for you guys.

    For the most part, I agree with you.

    #80 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    most of those metallica buyers are flippers

    You think the folks that bought via Metallica's fansite were also mostly flippers?

    I think there's a bunch of flippers, yes, but the sample size from this forum is pretty skewed.

    I think if there were THAT many flippers, we'd already see more for sale, pre-delivery.

    #81 6 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    I think if there were THAT many flippers, we'd already see more for sale, pre-delivery.

    Exactly.

    #82 6 years ago

    I would say Jack is betting on being able to sell all The Hobbit LEs for $7500 given the current market and competition. He might be thinking ...why leave 1.5 million on the table by selling out with pre-orders at $6500?

    Time will tell if he is right.

    #83 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    I didn't say we determine the overall. I'm just saying taking the sample of my area, which is what I have to go by. If the rest of the country is anything close to that, Jack is missing out big time.

    Jack won't even have this game available till mid/late 2014. What he's missing out on is pretty irrelevant at the moment. Seriously though, stop acting like you know what's best for Jack's business...Jack knows what's best for Jack's business. If Hobbit comes out and it's not selling at $7500, then I guess he'll have a "sale"...lol.

    #84 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Jack won't even have this game available till mid/late 2014. What he's missing out on is pretty irrelevant at the moment. Seriously though, stop acting like you know what's best for Jack's business...Jack knows what's best for Jack's business. If Hobbit comes out and it's not selling at $7500, then I guess he'll have a "sale"...lol.

    That would be interesting if buyers of Hobbit could get their money back and then potentially repurchase at the lower rate. I think he has to make Hobbit a stunning success for his model to work.

    #85 6 years ago
    Quoted from jpop:

    back to the PATZ thread, can someone explain to me the rules of WoZ that was there? What am I supposed to do? Jpop

    I'm in the list to get one. If that means I'm biased, so it is. I'm a lousy player. I'm more entertained by the mystery of a game. Disclaimers out of the way.

    I've played two of the games, the one at Abel and the one at Marvin's. & I'm guessing the one at Abel is the same one that came to the Zoo. Noticed that the TOTO rollovers do nothing. Haven't spent enough time to get a good feel for what the State Fair will do. Not to make this a VS AC/DC post but there's a difference between the two games in that WOZ is slower, more deliberate. That's okay because I am too.

    If you are looking for a reference point about code, I'm likely the worst source but what led me to get on the list besides the obvious fit and finish is that got a sense that I can set my machine up to play long and relaxing games.

    #86 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Jack won't even have this game available till mid/late 2014.

    Good point. So lets say the "reality" is they will ship Jan 1, 2015.

    That's SIX to SEVEN quarters from now, and perhaps 4-5 Stern releases. Add a couple Stern increases in there and by the time 1/1/2015 rolls around, $7500 might be the going rate for a Stern Premium.... or maybe even a Pro

    THLE at $7500 might look like a bargain!

    #87 6 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    Good point. So lets say the "reality" is they will ship Jan 1, 2015.
    That's SIX to SEVEN quarters from now, and perhaps 4-5 Stern releases. Add a couple Stern increases in there and by the time 1/1/2015 rolls around, $7500 might be the going rate for a Stern Premium.... or maybe even a Pro
    THLE at $7500 might look like a bargain!

    Heck, it is worth every nickel, compared to what you get compared to a stern now. There is a bill of materials rolling around here somewhere that's spells it all out.

    -1
    #88 6 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    You think the folks that bought via Metallica's fansite were also mostly flippers?
    I think there's a bunch of flippers, yes, but the sample size from this forum is pretty skewed.
    I think if there were THAT many flippers, we'd already see more for sale, pre-delivery.

    I dont' think so. The flippers are going to wait and sit on the game a bit to drive up desire and want. You don't sell before anyone has played the game, you wait and hope that the game kicks ass and everyone wants one. Then you cash in.

    i'm not telling Jack how to run his business, but if people don't speak up on why they arn't buying one. Jack will blame other things on why they arn't selling. Like job market or something. Unless you tell him specifically that he has pushed the price bubble to high, he won't know that he lost a potential customer.

    And as for the end of 2014. The bubble might pop by then as well and the Hobbit will be even more overpriced by then.

    #89 6 years ago

    I can only speak for myself here. But I am in on Woz at the $6,500 level. I really want the Hobbit but at 7,500 it just puts it out of my comfort level. If it was still 6,500 I would be all over it. I am hoping his costs will come down and he can make it more affordable later on.

    #90 6 years ago

    $7500 is a lot of money. You can buy a lot of games with $7500 cash around here, why buy just one if you can purchase 2 nice games. Twice the fun.

    #91 6 years ago
    Quoted from 2LiveCrew:

    $7500 is a lot of money. You can buy a lot of games with $7500 cash around here, why buy just one if you can purchase 2 nice games. Twice the fun.

    Interesting. Signed up today and this is the first post.

    #92 6 years ago
    Quoted from 2LiveCrew:

    $7500 is a lot of money. You can buy a lot of games with $7500 cash around here, why buy just one if you can purchase 2 nice games. Twice the fun.

    Can you? Seems like 7500 is just about 1 1/2 "B" title games or maybe 2/3rds of a way to an "A".

    #93 6 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    Interesting. Signed up today and this is the first post.

    Maybe the second post will get better ?

    LTG : )

    #94 6 years ago

    2 games? More like 3 or 4 for $7500. or even 5 if you know how to shop around and look for inexpensive fun titles. For $7500 i'd buy.

    Stargate
    Starship troopers
    Jurassic park
    Earthshaker
    and maybe throw a nice EM on it just because i'll have cash left over.

    #95 6 years ago

    I don't think Stern or JJP is going to drop a price in the future. Prices only go one way - up.
    If either company would drop the price, those that paid the previous price would be angry and demand a rebate.

    Quoted from Gomer1969:

    I can only speak for myself here. But I am in on Woz at the $6,500 level. I really want the Hobbit but at 7,500 it just puts it out of my comfort level. If it was still 6,500 I would be all over it. I am hoping his costs will come down and he can make it more affordable later on.

    #96 6 years ago

    I disagree that prices only go up. Look at electronics in general. Prices always come down. If people stop buying, they have no choice but to start lowering prices. They are similar to the gas companies at this point. Profits are very high right now, cash in while the money is hot. Won't stay like this forever.

    #97 6 years ago

    No, I'm referring to NIB pinball sales. This is the new future of pinball pricing. Have you seen Stern NIB pinball prices drop in the past 5 years? Nope. TVs and DVD players and electronics made in china are entirely different.

    There will be some that will continue to buy the premium games and support this model.

    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    I disagree that prices only go up. Look at electronics in general. Prices always come down. If people stop buying, they have no choice but to start lowering prices. They are similar to the gas companies at this point. Profits are very high right now, cash in while the money is hot. Won't stay like this forever.

    #98 6 years ago
    Quoted from TaylorVA:

    Can you? Seems like 7500 is just about 1 1/2 "B" title games or maybe 2/3rds of a way to an "A".

    Yikes!

    $7500 is only 2/3 of the way to an "A" game?.... how exclusive is your list of "A" games...?

    Your list must be shorter than mine, here's some "A-games" you could find for under $7500:
    TZ
    TAF
    AC/DC premium
    LOTR
    SM
    ST:TNG
    IJ
    etc?

    Or maybe those are A-, compared to the MM, MB and CC's of the world...

    #99 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    2 games? More like 3 or 4 for $7500. or even 5 if you know how to shop around and look for inexpensive fun titles. For $7500 i'd buy.
    Stargate
    Starship Troopers
    Jurassic Park
    Earthshaker
    and maybe throw a nice EM on it just because i'll have cash left over.

    Ok, with all due respect, none of those games float my boat, and if I brought them home, my wife and kid would not play them. When I took my wife to see WOZ and play it, I couldn't get her off it, and she said if we get WOZ she would play it. So I have the choice of spending $7500 on a bunch of pins that won't get played, or one that will. No contest. Your mileage may vary, but not from where I am.

    #100 6 years ago

    yes, but pinball prices havn't gone up because labor and materials went up. They went up on pure profit margin. Which means they have wiggle room on the price. Anything that just doubled in price instantly leaves a lot of room for price drops. Jack announced a higher price because he's starting a new company and needs startup capital to get things going. Stern sees this and people are falling over themselves to throw cash his way, and get in on the action. Up to his level and just a little under (with no improvement or added features from the old games TSPP, Sopranos, LOTR, RCT). Which means they are making mass profit right now. Jack announces another price increase. Again, Stern follows suite. It's going to stop and people will get fed up sooner or later. When they do, they will be forced to bring prices back down.

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