We could talk about how great and feature packed TZ is for the price until the end of time, that lightning hasn't struck before or since. I think the only chance of anything topping it in terms of being over-the-top awesome is something from JJP, and it's going to cost us if it happens

Stern build to order or demand, B/W was one run & done with NIB stock left over (ex TAF gold)

I am DEFINITELY not a pinball genius, but I dare to say that they older machines didn't have "more"? More what? Toys? Ramps? Rules? I am not quite understanding.
I am super happy with my METLE and think that LOTR may have one of the most in-depth rule sets of all time? What are they lacking today?
For example. I just sold my IJ...I loved that machine, but honestly, to say it had "more" than some newer Stern's to me is crazy!

I think that both eras had some home-runs and some turds. I can't agree newer pins have less but perhaps stupid model levels - Pro, Prem, LE's....

All I can agree with is that, inflation or no inflation pricing is insane now-a-days (ESPECIALLY if we told our wives)!!!

I would agree with this for sure. I used to own STTNG which is arguably the game with the most stuff, and Metallica just blows it away. I really like AFM, but I think it has a lot less going on than Metallica does.

The affordable pro Sterns (after all, this is a thread about value) are missing the "ohh ahh" features of the big, fancy 90s games. IJ had the Path of Adventure and the idol ball feed which are things we definitely wouldn't see on a modern pro. Medieval Madness is built around the castle, trolls, and catapult. Road Show has 2 heads, the bulldozer, and two plungers. NGG has a jump shot to an upper playfield, two pop up gophers, and spinning playfield disc. Monster Bash is known more for toys than anything. Subways in general seem like they're gone forever.

Stern pros are mostly a fan layout, two ramps, a captive ball, and a bash toy. Not saying new Sterns aren't great, they're just drawing me in with the code, not fancy new mechanical BS.

Plus when you're looking at how much stuff games used to have you think about the MM, TZ, and CVs out there. There are plenty of SS, AFMs, and BSDs that have nothing special going on besides good design and fun gameplay.

We don't have to look as far back as TZ for a comparison. TSPP has way more stuff than any of the recent LE titles for nearly half the price.

I hear there used to be a company making new computers for PB2k too! (Sorry I couldn't resist!)

Kidding aside - I agree with you Chessiv - Stern does not really have any significant competition... ...yet!

Interesting discussion. I think the simple answer to the OP's question is competition and volume.

I have a strong preference for Bally/Williams of the 90's to most of today's offerings. I think part of that comes from the vast majority of the current crop of games are using Stern parts instead of B/W, so that creates a different feel. I also have an aversion to bitmapped/raster graphic playfields, which is the majority of titles it seems now. It just doesn't appeal to my eye the way hand drawn/vector artwork does.

Game mechanics wise, some of the modern games are fantastic. Tron in particular captures a 90's sensibility with it's playfield layout and packages that with a great lightshow and soundtrack, if only it had better playfield art. Metallica is another game that gets plusses in my books because of the art.

Government intervention corrupting real market forces?

This is the real answer to me. We had a thread recently where someone said that within five years there would only be one manufacturer standing. Everyone jumped on him, but when the dust settled, most people realized that it was plausible. Spooky and Heighway are the only ones shipping games and between the two of them they'll make...what...500 games this year? They can do that in a couple of weeks at Stern. It still is a one-horse race, for the most part. What will tell the tale is how well Heighway scales up. If it's better than JJP, they could make a run.

From my time here, it seems like when people talk about 90s machines having more, they mean more toys, especially ones that interact with the ball. The Cryo-Claw on Demolition Man. The cannon on Black Rose. The twin cannons on ST: TNG. The four-sided trunk on Theatre of Magic with scoop and two magnets. Of course, the castle on Medieval Madness, which is IMO the best toy in pinball. We just aren't seeing them as often, which is why the complaints never go away. Look at Star Trek. It's very much a typical Steve Ritchie-style flow game. As a result, there aren't many places for the ball to stop or be diverted to do something else. It looks really sparse, as a result. The other reason that people complain is that they are tired of bash toys, especially when they are coupled with magnets. They're kind of the go-to toys for Stern. Metallica has three in front of Sparky, the grave marker and the coffin. TWD has up to three and two are in front of the prison and the Well Walker. Avengers has one in front of Hulk. It makes the games feel kind of same-y, and people have grown to expect them in John Borg games. Now, I don't agree entirely that Stern doesn't do toys well. I think the AC/DC cannon, Metallica hammer and Wrestlemania upper playfield are interesting, different and integrated pretty well.

Well, the Path of Adventure was pretty unique for the time, as was the spitting tiki ball lock. I think IJ had the first moving upper playfield and usually physical ball locks were just an ordinary up-post.

It's the Mexicans. ..their taking all our jobs!

Don't be surprised if you DO see people making bolts and winding coils soon in the United States someday soon.
http://fortune.com/2015/06/26/fracking-manufacturing-costs/

I likes me some Kaneda!

I am DEFINITELY not a pinball genius, but I dare to say that they older machines didn't have "more"? More what? Toys? Ramps? Rules?

Yes, yes, and Maybe. As far as rules go, many of the newer Sterns have what many in the hobby consider innovative rules. When you take a look at AC/DC, it definitely does have innovative rules. Games like TAF and TZ are complete (actually just get to) all the modes and go to Wizard Mode. So, Stern has advanced things as far as code is concerned. The problem is the inconsistency regarding polishing and/or completing code on their games. As far as toys and ramps go, W/B hands Stern their ass.

Early 90s. Crap pc's working in D.O.S with only 2-4mb of memory to work with. I say B/W did a great job with what they had to work with.
I wonder what Lyman could do to a B/W with more memory and today's computers to code them.

When pats game comes out there will be a thousand of us collectors putting up $10k to buy it. There's always 1k ooo and ahhhh people who have to have the new shinny toy. I'm one of them.

At the price Stern charges do you think we could at least get a subway? Or should I ask Jared..

I'd definitely agree on the good design and gameplay of these titles. I'd also add though that for how "simple" the gameplay is on BSD that it's toys or more aptly the mist mech is very complex for a toy and would cost big bucks today.

Why would it cost big bucks today? Because expectations are so low? Costwise, there really isn't anything that involved. The toys are simple to try to avoid it becoming a maintence issue ever on site. If stern or whoever wanted to, they could release a home version with incredible toys provided it would be expected to be maintained and not abused. You could reduce a lot of problems if you just switched to a differs the ball. How many cracked plastics, broken safes and chest, ratted up drop holes, eft because of a solid metal bearing being batted around at 15 mph?

3 to 4 miles an hour. It's been measured in the past.

LTG : )™

Korn on RGP did that some years back and never measured over 4mph.

LTG : )

I've been entirely playing on my MET since I got it Monday. Went back to BSD today, and it feels like a much more expensive/solid machine in comparison (despite paying more than double for NIB MET). MET is a great game with lots more to do, but BSD has 2 ramps that transform to serve another rewarding purpose (I really like initially inaccessible areas on a playfield [coffin/castle locks, and video mode in this case]), and the more unique gimmick in the mist ball.

Back in the 90's, you could take $8K to auction and come back home with a truckload of pins.

Mostly all A-Titles, too!

I couldn't imagine paying $8K today for a LE/Premium, or even worst, a 20 year old remake.

The current generation of collectors have dug a horrible mess for themselves and ultimately the rest of the hobby.

Yeah too bad it plays like an EM with an LCD.

With all due respect, sir...you're high.

Well you're new to the hobby..wait a while.

True...but I just played a hell of a lot of EMs at Pinburgh, and in no way did they move as fast as my WOZ. You may have played some bum versions of the game. Mine's pretty freaking fast. You'd have a better argument with The Hobbit, I think.

More companies need to focus on the 5k pin IMO, even if it's long term goal. I don't understand the 6-8k target.

Seems that virtually all of the "speed" on WOZ is caused by the pop bumpers.

The volume went down, so the profit margins on the smaller volume now being sold has to be higher now. It's that simple. Williams walked away from pinball because it was not profitable for them any more.

......"90s pins had more and cost 1/2 the price, what happened?"

You must be playing it wrong.

It's not just pinball though, demand for most hobby markets in general has caused prices to rise. I'm in to guitars and the price of guitars is much higher than it used to be, I used to be in to warhammer and I know the prices there have just kept going up and up to crazy points as well.

Very true. One of the phenomenons of The Internet is that it brings subcultures together and amplifies them. Put another way, niches are getting larger (because *everything* is getting larger).

I lost count how many times I've told my friends this would be the last price hike.

What could the current generation of collectors done differently? I ask because I'm one of them and am wondering how I helped dig this horrible mess you speak of.

If you own a machine, then you are culpable in digging this mess. If you bought a machine in recent years, that means you had a hand in shifting the demand curve to the right. Whether you "overpaid" or not, you still took a machine out of the marketplace that would have gone to another collector, thus forcing them to pay more for a different one. Or even if you haven't bought recently, and have owned your games for a long time, it's still your fault for not selling because had you sold, then you would have added to the supply of games on the market. But by hanging on to your games, you kept the supply low. And even if you don't currently own a game, but instead bought and sold one recently, you are still to blame because you probably paid to much to begin with and then demanded too much money back when you sold it.

I was going to say the only ones not guilty are the people who play on location, but even they have a hand in it. The money they feed those location pins are going to the operators who then turn around and buy more games. So I'm forced to conclude here that the only innocent people are those who don't play pinball. They are the only ones not contributing to this mess.

Yup, the EM's I've played have two mini playfields, a bunch of magnets, 3 ball physical ball lock, two VUK's, mini outlane games, deep rules, and motorized toys. No...Just because WOZ doesn't have two ramps for super fast flow doesn't mean it plays like an EM and that's not being disrespectful to EM's as I think they are a lot of fun. Personally I'm tired of two ramp games that focus solely on speed. I want to play a loaded pinball machine sometimes and thankfully there are those types of games, like WOZ, out there.

Expiration of government pinball subsidies.