(Topic ID: 133988)

90s pins had more and cost 1/2 the price, what happened?

By kaneda

9 years ago


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    There are 142 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
    #101 8 years ago

    We could talk about how great and feature packed TZ is for the price until the end of time, that lightning hasn't struck before or since. I think the only chance of anything topping it in terms of being over-the-top awesome is something from JJP, and it's going to cost us if it happens

    #102 8 years ago

    Stern build to order or demand, B/W was one run & done with NIB stock left over (ex TAF gold)

    #103 8 years ago

    I am DEFINITELY not a pinball genius, but I dare to say that they older machines didn't have "more"? More what? Toys? Ramps? Rules? I am not quite understanding.
    I am super happy with my METLE and think that LOTR may have one of the most in-depth rule sets of all time? What are they lacking today?
    For example. I just sold my IJ...I loved that machine, but honestly, to say it had "more" than some newer Stern's to me is crazy!

    I think that both eras had some home-runs and some turds. I can't agree newer pins have less but perhaps stupid model levels - Pro, Prem, LE's....

    All I can agree with is that, inflation or no inflation pricing is insane now-a-days (ESPECIALLY if we told our wives)!!!

    #104 8 years ago
    Quoted from hollywood:

    I am DEFINITELY not a pinball genius, but I dare to say that they older machines didn't have "more"? More what? Toys? Ramps? Rules? I am not quite understanding.
    I am super happy with my METLE and think that LOTR may have one of the most in-depth rule sets of all time? What are they lacking today?
    For example. I just sold my IJ...I loved that machine, but honestly, to say it had "more" than some newer Stern's to me is crazy!
    I think that both eras had some home-runs and some turds. I can't agree newer pins have less but perhaps stupid model levels - Pro, Prem, LE's....
    All I can agree with is that, inflation or no inflation pricing is insane now-a-days (ESPECIALLY if we told our wives)!!!

    I would agree with this for sure. I used to own STTNG which is arguably the game with the most stuff, and Metallica just blows it away. I really like AFM, but I think it has a lot less going on than Metallica does.

    #105 8 years ago
    Quoted from hollywood:

    For example. I just sold my IJ...I loved that machine, but honestly, to say it had "more" than some newer Stern's to me is crazy!

    The affordable pro Sterns (after all, this is a thread about value) are missing the "ohh ahh" features of the big, fancy 90s games. IJ had the Path of Adventure and the idol ball feed which are things we definitely wouldn't see on a modern pro. Medieval Madness is built around the castle, trolls, and catapult. Road Show has 2 heads, the bulldozer, and two plungers. NGG has a jump shot to an upper playfield, two pop up gophers, and spinning playfield disc. Monster Bash is known more for toys than anything. Subways in general seem like they're gone forever.

    Stern pros are mostly a fan layout, two ramps, a captive ball, and a bash toy. Not saying new Sterns aren't great, they're just drawing me in with the code, not fancy new mechanical BS.

    Plus when you're looking at how much stuff games used to have you think about the MM, TZ, and CVs out there. There are plenty of SS, AFMs, and BSDs that have nothing special going on besides good design and fun gameplay.

    #106 8 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    TZ is more of an LE than any recent Stern LE titles that I've seen. Wow, that makes me a little sad.

    We don't have to look as far back as TZ for a comparison. TSPP has way more stuff than any of the recent LE titles for nearly half the price.

    #107 8 years ago
    Quoted from chessiv:

    I know this will make certain fanboys angry but unfortunately stern has zero competition. Until some manufacturer comes along that can actually ship new machines at frequent intervals Stern will continue to mop up the cash and mediocrity will reign. You guys with hobbits on order count how many stern machines have come out since you ordered. Of course it's not only jjp. Highway took a long time. Multimorphic still hasn't shipped anything. Two "companies" imploded. Dutch pinball nearly imploded. It's really a mess right now.

    I hear there used to be a company making new computers for PB2k too! (Sorry I couldn't resist!)

    Kidding aside - I agree with you Chessiv - Stern does not really have any significant competition... ...yet!

    #108 8 years ago

    Interesting discussion. I think the simple answer to the OP's question is competition and volume.

    I have a strong preference for Bally/Williams of the 90's to most of today's offerings. I think part of that comes from the vast majority of the current crop of games are using Stern parts instead of B/W, so that creates a different feel. I also have an aversion to bitmapped/raster graphic playfields, which is the majority of titles it seems now. It just doesn't appeal to my eye the way hand drawn/vector artwork does.

    Game mechanics wise, some of the modern games are fantastic. Tron in particular captures a 90's sensibility with it's playfield layout and packages that with a great lightshow and soundtrack, if only it had better playfield art. Metallica is another game that gets plusses in my books because of the art.

    #109 8 years ago
    Quoted from beelzeboob:

    I remember when cars cost less than 10k.
    My parents bought their house for 17k. It's worth nearly a million now. I wonder what happened.

    Government intervention corrupting real market forces?

    #110 8 years ago
    Quoted from chessiv:

    I know this will make certain fanboys angry but unfortunately stern has zero competition. Until some manufacturer comes along that can actually ship new machines at frequent intervals Stern will continue to mop up the cash and mediocrity will reign. You guys with hobbits on order count how many stern machines have come out since you ordered. Of course it's not only jjp. Highway took a long time. Multimorphic still hasn't shipped anything. Two "companies" imploded. Dutch pinball nearly imploded. It's really a mess right now.

    This is the real answer to me. We had a thread recently where someone said that within five years there would only be one manufacturer standing. Everyone jumped on him, but when the dust settled, most people realized that it was plausible. Spooky and Heighway are the only ones shipping games and between the two of them they'll make...what...500 games this year? They can do that in a couple of weeks at Stern. It still is a one-horse race, for the most part. What will tell the tale is how well Heighway scales up. If it's better than JJP, they could make a run.

    Quoted from hollywood:

    I am DEFINITELY not a pinball genius, but I dare to say that they older machines didn't have "more"? More what? Toys? Ramps? Rules? I am not quite understanding.

    From my time here, it seems like when people talk about 90s machines having more, they mean more toys, especially ones that interact with the ball. The Cryo-Claw on Demolition Man. The cannon on Black Rose. The twin cannons on ST: TNG. The four-sided trunk on Theatre of Magic with scoop and two magnets. Of course, the castle on Medieval Madness, which is IMO the best toy in pinball. We just aren't seeing them as often, which is why the complaints never go away. Look at Star Trek. It's very much a typical Steve Ritchie-style flow game. As a result, there aren't many places for the ball to stop or be diverted to do something else. It looks really sparse, as a result. The other reason that people complain is that they are tired of bash toys, especially when they are coupled with magnets. They're kind of the go-to toys for Stern. Metallica has three in front of Sparky, the grave marker and the coffin. TWD has up to three and two are in front of the prison and the Well Walker. Avengers has one in front of Hulk. It makes the games feel kind of same-y, and people have grown to expect them in John Borg games. Now, I don't agree entirely that Stern doesn't do toys well. I think the AC/DC cannon, Metallica hammer and Wrestlemania upper playfield are interesting, different and integrated pretty well.

    Quoted from hollywood:

    For example. I just sold my IJ...I loved that machine, but honestly, to say it had "more" than some newer Stern's to me is crazy!

    Well, the Path of Adventure was pretty unique for the time, as was the spitting tiki ball lock. I think IJ had the first moving upper playfield and usually physical ball locks were just an ordinary up-post.

    #111 8 years ago

    It's the Mexicans. ..their taking all our jobs!

    #112 8 years ago
    Quoted from erak:

    Nuts bolts etc. (China)
    Spike system with modular circuit boards and less wire.
    Led displays. Blocks of leds(Made in china)
    Led lamp boards (made in china)
    Speakers (made in china)
    And if you think any of the metal parts. Or bolts are made in the U.S. you are fooling yourself.
    What U.S. company is stamping out coil mechs.
    Or winding pinball coils? Or making coindoors, or coinmechs.
    .

    Don't be surprised if you DO see people making bolts and winding coils soon in the United States someday soon.
    http://fortune.com/2015/06/26/fracking-manufacturing-costs/

    #113 8 years ago

    I likes me some Kaneda!

    #114 8 years ago

    I am DEFINITELY not a pinball genius, but I dare to say that they older machines didn't have "more"? More what? Toys? Ramps? Rules?

    Yes, yes, and Maybe. As far as rules go, many of the newer Sterns have what many in the hobby consider innovative rules. When you take a look at AC/DC, it definitely does have innovative rules. Games like TAF and TZ are complete (actually just get to) all the modes and go to Wizard Mode. So, Stern has advanced things as far as code is concerned. The problem is the inconsistency regarding polishing and/or completing code on their games. As far as toys and ramps go, W/B hands Stern their ass.

    #115 8 years ago

    Early 90s. Crap pc's working in D.O.S with only 2-4mb of memory to work with. I say B/W did a great job with what they had to work with.
    I wonder what Lyman could do to a B/W with more memory and today's computers to code them.

    #116 8 years ago

    What has more going on? KiSS LE or Simpsons pinball party?

    #117 8 years ago

    When pats game comes out there will be a thousand of us collectors putting up $10k to buy it. There's always 1k ooo and ahhhh people who have to have the new shinny toy. I'm one of them.

    #118 8 years ago

    At the price Stern charges do you think we could at least get a subway? Or should I ask Jared..

    #119 8 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    Plus when you're looking at how much stuff games used to have you think about the MM, TZ, and CVs out there. There are plenty of SS, AFMs, and BSDs that have nothing special going on besides good design and fun gameplay.

    I'd definitely agree on the good design and gameplay of these titles. I'd also add though that for how "simple" the gameplay is on BSD that it's toys or more aptly the mist mech is very complex for a toy and would cost big bucks today.

    #120 8 years ago
    Quoted from doublestack:

    I'd definitely agree on the good design and gameplay of these titles. I'd also add though that for how "simple" the gameplay is on BSD that it's toys or more aptly the mist mech is very complex for a toy and would cost big bucks today.

    Why would it cost big bucks today? Because expectations are so low? Costwise, there really isn't anything that involved. The toys are simple to try to avoid it becoming a maintence issue ever on site. If stern or whoever wanted to, they could release a home version with incredible toys provided it would be expected to be maintained and not abused. You could reduce a lot of problems if you just switched to a differs the ball. How many cracked plastics, broken safes and chest, ratted up drop holes, eft because of a solid metal bearing being batted around at 15 mph?

    #121 8 years ago
    Quoted from Det_Deckard:

    eft because of a solid metal bearing being batted around at 15 mph?

    3 to 4 miles an hour. It's been measured in the past.

    LTG : )™

    #122 8 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    3 to 4 miles an hour. It's been measured in the past.
    LTG : )™

    #123 8 years ago

    Korn on RGP did that some years back and never measured over 4mph.

    LTG : )

    #124 8 years ago
    Quoted from doublestack:

    I'd definitely agree on the good design and gameplay of these titles. I'd also add though that for how "simple" the gameplay is on BSD that it's toys or more aptly the mist mech is very complex for a toy and would cost big bucks today.

    I've been entirely playing on my MET since I got it Monday. Went back to BSD today, and it feels like a much more expensive/solid machine in comparison (despite paying more than double for NIB MET). MET is a great game with lots more to do, but BSD has 2 ramps that transform to serve another rewarding purpose (I really like initially inaccessible areas on a playfield [coffin/castle locks, and video mode in this case]), and the more unique gimmick in the mist ball.

    #125 8 years ago

    Back in the 90's, you could take $8K to auction and come back home with a truckload of pins.

    Mostly all A-Titles, too!

    I couldn't imagine paying $8K today for a LE/Premium, or even worst, a 20 year old remake.

    The current generation of collectors have dug a horrible mess for themselves and ultimately the rest of the hobby.

    #126 8 years ago

    When you look at WOZ you can see where you're money is going. That game is LOADED with goodies. Newer stern LE's, not so much. Just wish everyone got what they deserved if 9K is the new premium pin price.

    #127 8 years ago
    Quoted from kaneda:

    When you look at WOZ you can see where you're money is going. That game is LOADED with goodies. Newer stern LE's, not so much. Just wish everyone got what they deserved if 9K is the new premium pin price.

    Yeah too bad it plays like an EM with an LCD.

    #128 8 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    Yeah too bad it plays like an EM with an LCD.

    I would agree that WOZ doesn't have great flow. But hobbit looks to shoot really well. Out of the gate WOZ is an impressive first pin. Crazy the same delays are happening again.

    #129 8 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    Yeah too bad it plays like an EM with an LCD.

    With all due respect, sir...you're high.

    #130 8 years ago
    Quoted from beelzeboob:

    With all due respect, sir...you're high.

    Well you're new to the hobby..wait a while.

    #131 8 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    Well you're new to the hobby..wait a while.

    True...but I just played a hell of a lot of EMs at Pinburgh, and in no way did they move as fast as my WOZ. You may have played some bum versions of the game. Mine's pretty freaking fast. You'd have a better argument with The Hobbit, I think.

    #132 8 years ago

    More companies need to focus on the 5k pin IMO, even if it's long term goal. I don't understand the 6-8k target.

    #133 8 years ago
    Quoted from beelzeboob:

    True...but I just played a hell of a lot of EMs at Pinburgh, and in now way did they move as fast as my WOZ. You may have played some bum versions of the game. Mine's pretty freaking fast. You'd have a better argument with The Hobbit, I think.

    Seems that virtually all of the "speed" on WOZ is caused by the pop bumpers.

    #134 8 years ago

    The volume went down, so the profit margins on the smaller volume now being sold has to be higher now. It's that simple. Williams walked away from pinball because it was not profitable for them any more.

    ......"90s pins had more and cost 1/2 the price, what happened?"

    #135 8 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    Seems that virtually all of the "speed" on WOZ is caused by the pop bumpers.

    You must be playing it wrong.

    #136 8 years ago

    It's not just pinball though, demand for most hobby markets in general has caused prices to rise. I'm in to guitars and the price of guitars is much higher than it used to be, I used to be in to warhammer and I know the prices there have just kept going up and up to crazy points as well.

    #137 8 years ago
    Quoted from pinmanguy:

    It's not just pinball though, demand for most hobby markets in general has caused prices to rise. I'm in to guitars and the price of guitars is much higher than it used to be, I used to be in to warhammer and I know the prices there have just kept going up and up to crazy points as well.

    Very true. One of the phenomenons of The Internet is that it brings subcultures together and amplifies them. Put another way, niches are getting larger (because *everything* is getting larger).

    #138 8 years ago
    Quoted from Magic_Mike:

    Back in the 90's, you could take $8K to auction and come back home with a truckload of pins.
    Mostly all A-Titles, too!
    I couldn't imagine paying $8K today for a LE/Premium, or even worst, a 20 year old remake.
    The current generation of collectors have dug a horrible mess for themselves and ultimately the rest of hobby.

    I lost count how many times I've told my friends this would be the last price hike.

    #139 8 years ago
    Quoted from Magic_Mike:

    The current generation of collectors have dug a horrible mess for themselves and ultimately the rest of the hobby.

    What could the current generation of collectors done differently? I ask because I'm one of them and am wondering how I helped dig this horrible mess you speak of.

    #140 8 years ago
    Quoted from accidental:

    What could the current generation of collectors done differently? I ask because I'm one of them and am wondering how I helped dig this horrible mess you speak of.

    If you own a machine, then you are culpable in digging this mess. If you bought a machine in recent years, that means you had a hand in shifting the demand curve to the right. Whether you "overpaid" or not, you still took a machine out of the marketplace that would have gone to another collector, thus forcing them to pay more for a different one. Or even if you haven't bought recently, and have owned your games for a long time, it's still your fault for not selling because had you sold, then you would have added to the supply of games on the market. But by hanging on to your games, you kept the supply low. And even if you don't currently own a game, but instead bought and sold one recently, you are still to blame because you probably paid to much to begin with and then demanded too much money back when you sold it.

    I was going to say the only ones not guilty are the people who play on location, but even they have a hand in it. The money they feed those location pins are going to the operators who then turn around and buy more games. So I'm forced to conclude here that the only innocent people are those who don't play pinball. They are the only ones not contributing to this mess.

    #141 8 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    Yeah too bad it plays like an EM with an LCD.

    Yup, the EM's I've played have two mini playfields, a bunch of magnets, 3 ball physical ball lock, two VUK's, mini outlane games, deep rules, and motorized toys. No...Just because WOZ doesn't have two ramps for super fast flow doesn't mean it plays like an EM and that's not being disrespectful to EM's as I think they are a lot of fun. Personally I'm tired of two ramp games that focus solely on speed. I want to play a loaded pinball machine sometimes and thankfully there are those types of games, like WOZ, out there.

    #142 8 years ago

    Expiration of government pinball subsidies.

    There are 142 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.

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