I can see this becoming a giant debate.

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It's easy: stop buying it at that price and the price will come down.

I never started buying at that price.

I agree that the 90s pins were better in every way but the higher cost is just inflation I guess

I'm sure manufacturing costs and inflation have risen significantly since 1993 when TZ came out. Just look at Ford with the Mustang. In 1993 a standard Mustang GT cost nearly $16,000 new while a 2015 Mustang GT starts at just over $32,000. The 2015 Mustang is double the price just as many of today's LE and higher end pinball machines are double the price of the games in 1993.

However, the 2015 Mustang has come a long way since the 1993 Mustang and offers not only a ton of improvements but features as well. I honestly cannot say the same thing when comparing TZ or IJ to any of today's Stern LE's as many of them appear to offers less then games made over 20 years ago yet cost double the price. Something doesn't add up.

Based on an inflation calculator, $4000 in 1993 is $6600 today, but how many games are actually $9000, used or new?

In addition, the economies of scale are smaller with a pinball industry that sells, what, 10000 games per year, compared to one that sold 5-10 times that. The model of more expensive LE variants also make some models more expensive.

I would also argue that the programming and rules of most modern machines would require much more effort than the 90s machines did.

I believe Twilight zone/Addams, etc was about $3200 "retail" when new, but it could be had for less than $3000 at many distributors. I remember my buddy buying a brand new Medieval Madness from Starburst in Canada for $2800.

Just like I said when you posed this same question in another thread......The 1993 machines were coming off an assembly line that had almost 50 years to work out kinks, and be the most efficient it possibly could. Their startup costs had been recovered many times over, and they had a massive slot industry to absorb losses if they had them.

The times they have changed. I can't afford new machines, but those that can will set the prices. If they clamor for $8K games, guess what will be available

Chris.

As others said the production costs have increased, but also the buyers changed. Less operators who have to earn back their investment (and they have the cheaper pro models now) and more collectors who can afford to pay the high prices.

Economies of scale. Cranking out 17,000 Firepower or 20,000 TAF is going to cost less per unit than cranking out a couple hundred Big Juicy Melons or MMr.

Don't like the price?
Don't buy it.
Problem solved.

The first half of the 90's had huge competition too. Many companies that actually released machines. B/W, Data East, Capcom etc. All releasing high quality innovative stuff at competitive prices to stay alive in the market.

I paid 3200 for my nib LOTR in 2003. That was the going price for stern nib machines.

Demand is still insane for anything pinball, manufacturers are simply capitalising on this. Stern has set the pricing footprint, and others followed.

The people entering this hobby is growing - by a lot, and with many in their twenties, and why not – few forms of entertainment hold their value, or even go up in value. It’s a smart form of entertainment really working off of many aspects men enjoy: modding, constant tinkering, a game, and flashing lights.

The home market will continue to rise I think because of this, and with any demand comes increases in price. The only real losses are for those buying NIB and selling in 1-2 years, and even there, you still get back 80-90% of the original value, and that’s only for the non-winners.

Even at 9k, it’s hard to really justify you just dropped 9k and it’s gone. You can sleep well with pinball purchases.

Give it up already! Gold price over the same time.

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Addams family still go for $6000 - $8000 i have seen an attack from mars being advertised for $14000 but was fully modded with mirror blades etc here in Australia and system 11 machines have gone through the roof as well $4000 for a diner $3000 for F-14 tomcat back in 90s you could buy one for $500, but our wages are very high over here the cheapest pinball i bough was BOP for $1800 and needed some work also Australia is flooded with mostly container loads of Europeon and US imported pinballs going by the coin door inserts over the last 13 years 3 of my machines came from italy, i have also seen a gottlieb Car hop go for $2750 and someone bought it

The same thing that is causing all the world's problems.

Global Warming.

I get what your saying...honest question...besides pinball and gas prices....what else has gone up in price over the decades....???....now that I think about it....I think the only answer is we are completely getting taken advantage of....(but we have a choice not to buy...so shame on us)................Joey

Ohh...and people started paying 15k for MM cuz they are Nuckin Futs....!!!...................Joey

Inflation, labor costs, employee benefits, material costs, insurance costs, taxes, rent, utilities, marketing costs...

Right...you need all that to make TVs also.....they have gotten cheaper.....I can give a plethora of examples this way....pinball seems to be the only thing going up in price as the years go on............Joey

The reason we are getting inferior games now for a high price is that Stern has zero competition. No one else is consistently churning out pinball machines. Want a shiny new game? Stern is your only option. They have zero incentive to innovate or try to be better than their competition.

Heighway is the only company that looks like it could produce pins in the volume, both units per game, and games per year, to force Stern to step it up.

IM was $3700 NIB years ago. Prices have only recently gotten insane. It isn't too far along for them to drop again.

"Since the 90's"? More like "since 2009"

Not that long ago Stern games were 4k and there was only one version. Jack came along and showed how much more people were willing to pay for a game (remember at the time a 6500$ WOZ was considered insane)

Stern was able to raise their prices to what people were willing to pay. Pretty ironic that Jack started his company out of a fear of Stern going under, and by causing Pinflation, actually saved them.

The takeaway might be that selling games at 4k was killing Stern and 6.5k is a healthier cost.

Reminds me of my mom nagging my contractor step-dad to raise his prices. If you're always busy, raise prices until you aren't.

Too bad our kids hate pinball.....just imagine what will happen to the pins when were gone....they will be paying people to come take them away...!!! ................Joey

Food prices have gone sky high in the past decade. If its not the direct price increases, its the backdoor increases through smaller containers, at the same price. Anyone who grocery shops over the past decade would know this. It does take too much in the cart to run a couple hundred bucks these days.

Pinball machines require much more assembly time than TVs do. Plus, a lot of consumer products are built and assembled in foreign countries where labor is cheap. Many of the rules/laws that result in driving costs up in the US don't apply in China, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc.

And we are forgetting part 2 of the thread.....so OK....I'll pay xxx amount for a pro...wait...where did the spinners go...where did the drop targets go...OOO...I have to pay another 1-2k for those....so glad I got a pool hall with 15 pins 5 min away.... .............Joey

Lots of us drive Chinese cars....I'd buy/play some Chinese pinball... .............Joey

Yes but only if you want to treat yourself...(hey just like pinball)...if you don't fill the cart with meat and only shop at big name chains....the price of ramen and bologna won't run you hundreds.....just the same...we could play pinball arcade for pennies compared to a real machine....
So it's either xbox and soup.....or Steak and BBB.....what are you havin...???...............Joey

I remember when cars cost less than 10k.

My parents bought their house for 17k. It's worth nearly a million now. I wonder what happened.

... cats and dogs, living together ...

The man has a point.

Am I in bizarro world...???...33 posts and we are still on topic...!!!..... ...........Joey

Damn it Billy....!!!... .........Joey

Somewhere, NJGecko is smiling.

I suppose that's the problem then. I like meats. I guess to have a reasonable grocery bill, I need to turn vegetarian. The problem with that is that 10 years ago I didn't have to. My (or I should say my wife's) shopping habits have not changed in the realm of groceries, yet the bill is up almost three fold. Still feels like inflation to me.

Ok......to stay on topic....can we discuss then part 2 to the thread....prices are almost doubled...why do they have to strip the pros of simple toys...???..............Joey

Bingo!

Manufacturing costs back in the 90s has nothing to do with today's market prices, whatsoever. The only thing that matters today is today's supply and demand.

Want to use cars as an example? OK. A 69 Cadillac de Ville cost 2X what a 69 Chevy Chevelle SS396 convertible cost. Today, the SS goes for 6-10X what the Caddy goes for.

I'll use MET as an example....if you wanted the hammer go prem...if you want your plaque go LE......but why do I have to go prem or LE to get spinners....price is what the price is...it's these little things that I think is the messed up part.............Joey

Inflation anyone?

I feel a lot of stuff is lumped together in the first post that does not belong.

First of all, if you are buying a new machine... there are a lot of options : 4600(Stern Pro)-9000(WOZ)-15,000-20K+(NIB Monster Bash or, BBB or, whatever else.)

It's not fair to paint the "new pin price" of ALL pinball with a $9,000 brush.

If a new TAF was $2900 ----- $3300 in 1992, todays inflation equivalent would be $4932 ----- $5613 (2015).

It looks like we are actually getting "a little less" (for a NIB Stern) as you put it BUT... we are also paying a little less than we should be, if all things were equal.

Seems logical to me.

Now, $5613 is a little off a Prem price... but not THAT far off. So possibly the Stern Prem/LE's are overpriced by $1,000. If that keeps pinball manufacturers in business, I don't really care, since I'm not buying them.

My guess is to drive people to the more profitable premium and LE models.

???

First off, the market needs to stop paying these ridiculous prices on older games.

Secondly, for new products it's about supply and demand. The market in the 90's was what...10x the size of today's (conservative guess)? From a manufacturing point of view, the more you make the less each will cost. Production items (solenoids, switches etc) can be purchased at greater quantities = less $$. That can be transferred to the consumer.

Although, I still don't quite understand why Stern follows the old format for sales with respect to resellers/dealers. Why not sell direct? A lot of the added cost comes from dealer markup to make up their profits.

I wonder how this poll would do today. I still stand by my vote 8K max (delivered)
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/where-is-your-line-in-the-sand-for-nib-pins
I must say my max would be CONSIDERABLY less had I not already been in the hobby and had to put new cash into my purchases. I can only justify spending that much because that cash would be generated from selling off something else. My base investment in pinball was made years ago. Sweat equity is the only thing I have spent on the hobby since.

Don't get SMART.... ..............Joey

Pinstortion.

They wouldn't make the pro if they didn't make money on it. Stern just likes to extort folks into paying 1.5K more for the prem so customers are "encouraged" to buy a product with a much more attractive profit margin.