Jumping Jack
Gottlieb, 1973The game works perfect until the last ball is drained, 3 or 5 ball setting. The machine keeps trying to reset itself and won't end the game. If I turn off the game and restart, if the ball is in the out hole, the game continues with the resetting issue but won't eject the ball. If I put the ball in the shooter lane and then start the game. The game will reset and start normally. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Hi Anothertoy
do You have the schematics ? I only have the schematics to "Jack in the Box" (OK for playfield features) - and I have a schematics to "Big Brave" - a two player pin.
Look here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1371&picno=31707 above the chimes, to the left --- the huge "Control Bank" - does YOUR pin has such an Control-Bank --- do You have paper tags telling the name of the relays mounted in that bank ?
You can start a ONE-Player-Game - see during the Reset-Cycle the Control-Bank is resetted. Then start a TWO-Player-Game and look at the bank - question: Do You see a (maybe PB) Second Player-Relay in the Control-Bank "move / actuate / plunge" ?
Do You have an (maybe XB) Last-Ball-Relay mounted in the bank ? Play through the balls - question: DOES the "Last-Ball-Relay ever "move / actuate / plunge" ?
(((On Gottlieb pins the "Last-Ball-Relay" is mounted in the pin to signalize the brain of the pin: NO MORE stepping through the players / balls --- it is time to switch to GAME-OVER)))
I am specially interested in: Section of the schematics showing the "Coil on Last-Ball-Relay" and the switches and the color of connecting wires.
IF You have a schematics: A picture taken with Your mobile phone is good - I just would like to see "+/- what I show on Big Brave", greetings Rolf
Here are pictures of the schematic. If you need more detail, let me know. The pin has a large control bank that is labeled. In the mean time, I'll look at what you have questioned and get back to you.
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Hi Anothertoy
thanks for the schematics- we now can talk"Jumping Jack". I wait for the answer to my question "DOES the XB-Last-Ball-Relay ever move / actuate / plunge ?"
IF (if) it does actuate when the pin steps from second-last ball to "LAST Ball": We then have to troubleshoot at "QB-Game-Over-Relay".
IF (if) the XB-Last-Ball-Relay NEVER actuates: I hope for luck - I hope for: WE FORCE the XB-Relay to actuate - You then play the last ball - then Yo let the ball drain AND (hopefully) the pin goes to GAME-OVER.
The following is written "assuming Your XB-Relay does not actuate when You play ..."
Have the pin toggled-off. See the JPG - a wire color-brown-mingled-with-white runs from Coil on the XB-Relay to "Switch mounted on O-Outhole-Relay" - the other blade of this switch on O-Relay has wire-color-slate-white soldered-on. LOCATE this switch on O-Relay.
See the bottom of the JPG - "Fuse-Holder-25-Volt-15-Ampere" "wire-color-red (NEVER TOUCH - NEVER USE) and wire-color-red-black are soldered-on. Clip-on a Jumper-Wire at "red-black" and take the other end of the Jumper-Wire into the open. DANGER: Once You toggle-on the pin: On this Jumper-Wire / gator-clip You will have always 25 Volt POWER.
Clip-on a second Jumper-Wire at "Switch on O-Relay - side 'wire-brown-mingled-with-white' is soldered-on". Toggle-on the pin and start a game - play though the balls - when the pin kicks the last ball to the shooter alley: MAKE a connection with the two Jumper-wires - question: DOES the XB-Relay actuate ? IF (if) YES: Play the last ball and let the ball drain - question: Does the pin switches to GAME-OVER ? Greetings Rolf
Hi Rolf, yes the last ball relay does pull in. As long as the ball stays in the out hole, the game continues to try to reset. There is peer on the out hole switch in other words.
Yes the xb switch pulls in with the last ball. As long as the ball stays in the outhole making the switch, the game tries to reset. The game over relay QB never actuates.
R K
Hi R K
At the time the pin gives You the last ball: The XB-Relay does actuate --- good. And so comes the question: Do the switches mounted on the XB-Relay "act proper" - maybe a switch-blade has an oxidated contact-point - or a wire has broken-off a solder-lug - or a switch-blade is bent - not doing what the switch should do (we do not yet know).
You wrote about it (post-1) and You wrote it again (post-8): "As long as the ball stays in the outhole making the switch, the game tries to reset". I do not fully understand - I must ask questions:
Is Your pin set to "3 ball game" --- or set to "5 ball game" ? When You play a TWO-Player-game - at end of last ball of Player-1: The pin is nice and acts normal - it switches to "2nd Player, last ball" ?
You loose "second-last ball" - bonus is counted on the Score-Drums - the pin steps to "last ball" -AT THIS time the XB-Relay actuates, ball is given and You play a normal ball. Then You loose the last ball - bonus is counted on the Score-Drums - NOW the problems start to show up. The pin start to reset the Score-Drums, resets "ball in play" to "first ball in play" (((pin acts as if You have started a new game))).
Question: Is the "written above" true --- or what exactly is "the game tries to reset". To proceed in troublw-shooting: I wait for Your answer.
Want to try (?) - the QB-Game-Over-Relay also sits in the Control-Bank --- it should actuate (the way all these relay move) as every other relay in this Control-Bank.
Here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm (lots of good information) - here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo - the video is about AX-Relays INTERLOCK-Type - do not study the whole video - BUT look at "time 0.48 to 0.56" - the man actuates some relays manually. I do believe he is doing this with the pin toggled-off.
Want to toggle-off Your pin and practive this "actuate by hand the QB-Game-Over-Relay" --- when You have the feeling for to do this manually activating: Put on rubber gloves - start and play and at the time the pin should actuate the QB-Game-Over-Relay: You do it manually.
In the JPG I show "places of interest" - it is a drag - almost all interesting stuff is "Score-Motor" and/or Control-Bank" - hard to get at. We (probably) have to get at such switches - question: Can You loosen "wing-nut(s) and turn some 90 degrees the Score-Motor / the Control-Bank" --- OF COURSE: Try to do this with pin TOGGLED-OFF. Greetings Rolf
The game is set to 5ball. It plays all the way normally with 2 players, all credits added, etc then after the last ball drains, the target bank resets continually and the score motor runs until I manually remove the ball from the out hole. When I manually activate the QB Game Over Relay, the game does turn off. If I knew how to upload a video I would.
Hi RK
Your pin is "allowed" to reset the targets and reset the targets and on and on - as the O-Relay is pulling and the ball is not kicked-over to the shooter alley (therefore the "P-Relay" does not actuate).
The problem is in the mentioned wiring with the "hard to get at switches".
See the JPG in post-9, "my red line and the 'marked yellow' switches". The "Switch on O-Relay is the 'most easy to get at' " of the switches in question - one wire on the switch is of color-slate-green, the other wire has color (not shown in the JPG): orange-black.
Locate this switch and have a good look at --- all good ?
Then You must look at the other "marked yellow" switches (see JPG, post-9) --- If You do not find the fault: We must use a Jumper-Wire and check the connecting wires --- I hope: "All the stuff to be checked" is mounted on the bottom of the cabinet - so we do not have a Jones-Plug involved.
First: Have a look (maybe up to 10 minutes) - if You do not see the fault: We THEN start using a Jumper-Wire. Greetings Rolf
Is it possible the coil could be bad. I get a reading of 2.1 ohms on it and 4.0 ohms on the rest of the bank of identical coils.
Hi RK
it is hard for me to read in "our" schematics (list of relays) - I look-up in the schematics "Jack in the Box" and learn: ALL the relays in the Control-Bank have Coil "A-1118" - so ALL should read the same Ohms. A general rule is "Everything BELOW 2 Ohms" is a coil before overheating - before making the fuse to blow --- maybe (maybe) You have to buy a new coil - but wait.
Depending on "state the pin is in": You may measure "all the way around - through windings of wires in the transformer" - to be sure to get "true reading of the Ohm-Meter": At least one side of the coil (You want to measure Ohms): At least one side must be free of wires ...
Lets do a test: Have the pin toggled-off. Then manually MOVE / ACTUATE the huge RESET-ARM of the Control-Bank - ALL relays will be resetted. Then toggle-on the pin - The ZB-First-Ball-Relay AND the QB-Game-Over-Relay must actuate (actuate when You simply toggle-on the main power switch) - question: Do they actuate ?
As always: A coil can be bad or a switch feeding current to the coil can be bad. I hope for: These two relays actuate when You simply toggle-on the pin --- and I hope: The fuse does not blow. Greetings Rolf
I ran a jumper from the ZB relay to the QB relay and started the pin. The ZB pulled in, the QB didn't move. Me thinks it may be the coil. Any other way you may suggest to check?
Hi RK
we come to "using a Jumper-Wire". On Gottlieb pins we usually must jumper on the "HOT, POWER-side of connections" --- 25 Volts can kill You - be very careful.
Toggle-off the pin. Clip-on a Jumper-Wire at "Coil on QB-Relay, side "a short wire runs to Switch mounted on the QB-Relay". The other end of the Jumper-Wire take around relays etc. into the open - the gator clip shall NOT touch metal.
Take a second Jumper-Wire - clip-on at Fuse-Holder-25-Volt-15-Ampere, side "wire-red-black !!!" is soldered-on. Take the other end of the Jumper-Wire into the open - NOT touching metal.
RESET the huge reset-arm on the Control-Bank. Then toggle-on the pin - the ZB-Relay actuates --- NOW grab the two Jumper-wires - grab the insulated wires - then hold for a tenth of a second the gator-clips together, making connection - question: Does the QB-Relay actuate ? And / or: Does the fuse blows ?
If nothing happens: We then must also jumper on the "return-side 'coil on QB-relay back to transformer' " - well, in Switzerland it is past midnight - time to go to sleep --- till tomorrow, greetings Rolf
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Aarau
Alpine, CALIFORNIA