(Topic ID: 210767)

72 Gottlieb Player unit issues

By mrbanjo

6 years ago


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  • 26 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Heaterguy
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 6 years ago

Starts game
Ball one kicks out to lane all normal, ball one drains
Now:
sometimes skips right to ball 3, 90% of the time, you can hear the PU double cycle
when it does this the 2nd player score reel ALWAYS adds 1000 points (we are on a single player game)
ball 3 drains and it skips to ball 5 90% of the time
and again, the 2nd player reel ALWAYS advances 1000 points
when ball 5 drains, if you have bonus points say, 6000, the bonus counts down but NO chime and no points on score reel
(probably because the game is over)
and it may kick a dead ball to shooter lane just ahead of GAME OVER light

Cleaned PU rivets, contact bank behind them and tried 3 balls same odd things going on

#2 6 years ago
Quoted from mrbanjo:

Starts game
Ball one kicks out to lane all normal, ball one drains
Now:
sometimes skips right to ball 3, 90% of the time, you can hear the PU double cycle
when it does this the 2nd player score reel ALWAYS adds 1000 points (we are on a single player game)
ball 3 drains and it skips to ball 5 90% of the time
and again, the 2nd player reel ALWAYS advances 1000 points
when ball 5 drains, if you have bonus points say, 6000, the bonus counts down but NO chime and no points on score reel
(probably because the game is over)
and it may kick a dead ball to shooter lane just ahead of GAME OVER light
Cleaned PU rivets, contact bank behind them and tried 3 balls same odd things going on

I'd check the stepping action of the player unit. If the "step" is too big you'll get a double step and get some pretty weird results. Manually actuate the plunger and watch how the bar grabs the teeth of the gear. There are adjustments/limiters to control how much travel each step can take. (use a sharpie to mark the original position of these adjusters should you mess thing up). I had a similar issue and found it was doing a double step.

#3 6 years ago

When the game skips farther than it should, does the Player unit solenoid fire more times than when it works correctly?

If so, I'll need to see a scanned copy of the schematic. Sorry, not cell phone picures of it.

#4 6 years ago

Yes it double fires I believe always 1-3 and 3-5 and the weird (always) adds 1000 to the Player 2 score reels when you are only in one player
here are the schematics and thanks guys

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#5 6 years ago

I'm thinking it must be in the PU switch stack in back
Question: the contacts labeled P13...P2B....P5B etc. are not on the legend...Are these switch stack contacts?

#6 6 years ago

Yes, and the numbers start at the bottom. There may be lateral solders, which are a pita to deal with.

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#7 6 years ago

Thank you

#8 6 years ago

Hi mrbanjo
it is a strange fault that Your pin is doing. I do not know - I do guessing / loud thinking. The second player gets 1000 points - question: AAA: when the motor is running and the Player-Unit is stepped stepped stepped - or BBB: After the stepping has stopped - then out of the blue the 2nd player gets the points ?
Here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2784&picno=15484 the right outlane gives 1000 points --- wild guessing: The switch below the playfield is adjusted tight --- the ball rolls over the trough switch below the apron --- shaking and the switch faulty closes --- the Player-Unit must be stepped from Player-1 to Player-2 to (not existing) Player-3 to (not existing) Player-4 to Player-1-next-Ball. At the time the playfield switch faulty closes: The stepping on the Player-Unit has been done - one step has been done so Player-2 gets the faulty 1000 points. This playfield switch is a wild guessing --- may want to sneak-in a stripe of paper to keep the switch permanent open - then test --- still the faulty 1000 points or no longer the faulty 1000 points ?
We may have to investigate more on the faulty 1000 points.

Skipping the second ball in a ONE-Player-Game --- not knowing so guessing: See the JPG (Your schematics) - the Player-Unit is stepped by actuating the "Add Player Unit Coil (encircled green)". When starting a new game: "enircled red" is doing the stepping. When stepping "in play": "Encircled green and encircled brown" is doing the stepping --- I believe ALL TIME LONG (stepping stepping stepping): The P-Add-Player-Unit-RELAY is steady pulling - it is made to pull-in (light blue) and stays pulling (dark blue). IF (if, if) Switch-motor-2B does NOT truely open when it should: P-Relay stays pulling AND another (round of) "stepping stepping stepping" on the Player-Unit faulty happens.
Maybe a friend can help - staring at the P-Relay murmur / whisper "pulling pulling pulling pulling" as long in time he sees the P-Relay pulling - and You look at the Score-Motor turning - I say: The P-Relay is allowed and must: Pulling while the motor does a turn of 120 degrees --- not shorter but also NOT longer - not for another 120 degrees.
No friend helping (?) --- make Yourself an SteveFury-Test-Light https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425 - mount Your Test-Light like I show "JPG, light blue below the P-Relay-Coil" and have an eye on the light while looking at the motor turning.

The theory of "Switch-motor-2B does NOT truely open" - if the theory is true: You should have problems with coining-up --- as Switch-motor-2B also is involved in the coining-up. So to only check - only check the Switch-motor-2B: I added in the JPG "drawn pink / rosa in the left lower corner of the JPG. This "drawn pink / rosa" Test-Light would / will tell us about Switch-motor-2B truely opening or NOT truely opening. Greetings Rolf

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#9 6 years ago

Ok Rolf thanks for your helping me here.
Everything seems to work as you mentioned above
However this is what I found:

If I lift the playfield on its prop rod (and of course remove ball)
start a game, ball one, manually hit a few targets and bonus's and then simulate ball drain by holding ball kicker switch
and then release this switch when ball kicker solenoid "kicks" manually, THEN trip the trough switch to go to Ball "2"
repeat everything again, go through ball "3"....."4"......then to ball "5" in the same manner...........the game works flawlessly
Even counts down the bonus points perfectly between balls and through ball 5 and GAME OVER.

AS soon as I put the playfield down in position, start game with a ball, it goes wacky. Skips ball count as mentioned,
normal operation of ball count relay is rat tat tat......when it skips its Rat tat tat Rat tat tat
1000 points always go to 2nd player score reel when it skips and kicks ball out before the bonus fully counts down
leaving bonus lights lit on playfield for next ball

Thought maybe the harness was the issue in the difference of playfield up or down but unplugged and gave a rotation the to harness
and plugged back in

Oddity for sure

#10 6 years ago

Oh and no issues with coins or credit button

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from mrbanjo:

Ok Rolf thanks for your helping me here.
Everything seems to work as you mentioned above
However this is what I found:
If I lift the playfield on its prop rod (and of course remove ball)
start a game, ball one, manually hit a few targets and bonus's and then simulate ball drain by holding ball kicker switch
and then release this switch when ball kicker solenoid "kicks" manually, THEN trip the trough switch to go to Ball "2"
repeat everything again, go through ball "3"....."4"......then to ball "5" in the same manner...........the game works flawlessly
Even counts down the bonus points perfectly between balls and through ball 5 and GAME OVER.
AS soon as I put the playfield down in position, start game with a ball, it goes wacky. Skips ball count as mentioned,
normal operation of ball count relay is rat tat tat......when it skips its Rat tat tat Rat tat tat
1000 points always go to 2nd player score reel when it skips and kicks ball out before the bonus fully counts down
leaving bonus lights lit on playfield for next ball
Thought maybe the harness was the issue in the difference of playfield up or down but unplugged and gave a rotation the to harness
and plugged back in
Oddity for sure

trough switch gaped too close...

#12 6 years ago

I may have the name of the solenoid on the Schematics wrong,
there is a ball kicker and a ball return solenoid
This game has a solenoid that kicks the ball back onto the playfield when gate is closed
on lower left of playfield...............so which one is the ball kicker and the ball return
I assume the its the ball return when it drains?

I have opened up and closed up the trough switch with no change.
Its like the ball return solenoid (kicks ball over the trough switch) is firing before the bonus is finished counting down
but why does it work fine manually?

#13 6 years ago

Thoughts as the problem area?

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#14 6 years ago

2B......... good as coins work as per Rolf's question

#15 6 years ago

Hi mrbanjo
my "not knowing - guessing - loud thinking" in post-8 is interesting (for me) I did some research and started an topic by myself. Post-8 is not helpful to Your problem - YOU mention at the end of post-12 the important fact "(seems like) the Ball-Return-Solenoid (((we often call this Outhole-Kicker))) fires BEFORE the bonus is finished counting down".

In a running pin FIRST the bonus does step down - it may need one turn of 120 degrees - it may need two turns of 120 degrees (- maybe even three turns when more than 10 bonus is possible). The motor comes to an halt (most likely so short in time that You do not see the halt) --- THEN the Outhole-Relay is made pulling - Outhole-Relay then kicks the ball over to the shooter alley.

See the JPG --- 1 --- 2, 3 (Motor is not yet running) --- 4 (ball rolls into the outhole and closes switch) --- 5 (You have bonus on the bonus-counter) --- the 6, Q-Relay pulls-in --- 7 (establishing Self-Hold-Current) --- lets say You have exactly three bonus --- bonus is counted down --- 8 opens (as motor comes near end of the turn) --- switch on bonus unit has changed from 5 to 11 as the bonus counter has reached Zero-Position --- motor runs out --- 8 closes again and 9 closes --- ball is still in the Outhole (so 10 is closed) --- 11,12 so 13 actuates and establishes Self-Hold-Current (through 14, 15).

WHERE is Your Bonus-Unit mounted ? Hanging on the playfield ? Look for the threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch on the Bouns-Unit --- a rod mounted on the wheel does move the middle blade when stepping from One-Bonus down to Zero-Bonus --- all good with this switch ? Greetings Rolf

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#16 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

WHERE is Your Bonus-Unit mounted ? Hanging on the playfield ? Look for the threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch on the Bouns-Unit --- a rod mounted on the wheel does move the middle blade when stepping from One-Bonus down to Zero-Bonus --- all good with this switch ? Greetings Rolf

Yes Rolf....it hangs under playfield and cleaned and adjusted this switch looks good and works well when the game
behaves.
Interesting clue tho.....I removed the apron tonite, to visibly watch what happens with the ball, as the game is played:
The out hole kicker is changing the ball count.....90% of the time

Credit button pressed
game cycles, score reels reset
ball kicks over trough switch into shooter lane
ball one is played, and drains, bonus counts down
THEN (sometimes/most of the time) the out hole kicker solenoid kicks out the ball, but at the same time, this causes the ball count to advance to "2"
and this screws up the bonus countdown as it does not give enough time to collect bonus
so as ball then crosses the trough switch, it changes to "3" this is the skipping ball issue
so you go ahead and play that ball, it drains, and the ball count changes again at the same time the kicker solenoid fires, changing ball count to "4"
then as it passes over the trough switch it changes to ball 5 (screwing up bonus)
so as Ball 5 drains it kicks out ball at same time as GAME OVER comes up and ball in now in the shooter lane
That is the Rat tat tat...Rat tat tat... one for the kicker solenoid advancing the Player Unit and the other passing over the trough switch advancing the player unit
If we can cure the kicker solenoid changing ball count....I believe every other issue will be solved!

#17 6 years ago

I put a strip of paper in the ball count trough switch to see if it was vibration but made no difference

#18 6 years ago

Check out BB, the Ball Kicker Gate Relay, to make sure that it's gapped correctly and not energizing when the playfield is down.

#19 6 years ago

Hi mrbanjo
Your (post-16) "Interesting clue tho ... The Outhole-Kicker is changing the Ball-Count ..." is an good observation. See the JPG - "my orange star near switch named 'P' " --- IF (if, if) this switch is faulty closed (all the time or sometimes): Faulty stepping on the Player-Unit (means faulty stepping on player and or ball). Where is Your P-Add-Player-Unit-RELAY mounted ? The "my orange star near switch named 'P' " Switch is the so-called "Self-Hold-Switch on P-Relay" - easy to be located: From one side of the COIL on P-Relay runs a short wire of any color (or maybe just a naked wire) - runs a short wire to "Switch mounted on the P-Relay" --- (have the pin toggled off / main power cord unplugged - Safety Reasons) - please inspect this switch - truely open when the relay is not actuated ? - truely closed when You manually actuate the relay ? --- NO DROP of solder fallen at the solder-points (making faulty connection) ? - NO DOGHAIR crap of wire fallen there () ? - not a short stud bent on the switch making faulty connection ? Inspect this switch --- then test again.

Your (post-17) "ball count trough switch" - what is this ? May I assume "Trough Switch that closes when the ball is kicked from the Outhole to roll over to the Shooter-Alley" ? Please write about.
IF (if, if) "my orange star near switch named 'P' " switch is faulty closed when the P-Relay is not pulling" - at the time the pin does make the O-Relay to pull-in - see the JPG: Upwards in the JPG through "my orange star near switch named 'P' faulty closed" - upwards and to the left - the P-Relay ALSO, faulty pulls-in (((and the P-Relay then makes the Player-Unit to step - faulty at this time))).

(((I put more colored marks into the JPG --- maybe we must do some more research - for the moment I hope for luck --- inspecting and cleaning and adjusting "my orange star near switch named 'P' " switch makes the fault to disapear / vanish))) Greetings Rolf

P.S.: In the JPG - "my blue star - three-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch on the Bonus-Unit": Shown in the JPG is situation "NO Bonus on the Unit" --- does this switch truely work ? (No drop of solder - no doghair crap of wire - no bent stud ? --- Do manually step up and step down and watch the action.

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#20 6 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Check out BB, the Ball Kicker Gate Relay, to make sure that it's gapped correctly and not energizing when the playfield is down.

BB is the relay that kicks the ball back onto the playfield when gate is open (lower left of game)

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Where is Your P-Add-Player-Unit-RELAY mounted ?

On bottom main board

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

"my orange star near switch named 'P' " --- IF (if, if) this switch is faulty closed (all the time or sometimes):

P switches working as they should

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

"ball count trough switch" - what is this ? May I assume "Trough Switch that closes when the ball is kicked from the Outhole to roll over to the Shooter-Alley" ? Please write about.

Yes trough switch is the one the ball rolls over on way to shooter alley and actually energizes relay "P" to step up ball count

"P" relay looks clean, no wire issues, no bent tabs

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

three-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch on the Bonus-Unit": Shown in the JPG is situation "NO Bonus on the Unit" --- does this switch truely work ? (No drop of solder - no doghair crap of wire - no bent stud ? --- Do manually step up and step down and watch the action.

Bonus switch clean and adjusted working no binding

I'm puzzled......how can power from the ball return switch and ball return solenoid, be getting to the ball count relay "P" if not the switch on "P' itself?

#22 6 years ago

So..........the only way that the ball count can (suppose to) advance from say, 1-2-3-4-5 is is when:

there is no bonus or after the bonus counts down the closed sw on the bonus sw pulls relay "O"
"O" sw pulls and ball return relay kicks ball out of outhole across to trough sw which pulls relay "P"
which advances ball count

SO...somehow the bonus does not finish it's countdown, would have to change state,
supplying power thru "O" and at that time the ball return relay kicks the ball out of the outhole
the ball count steps up(as soon as ball return relay fires) BEFORE it rolls across the trough sw and when it does
roll over the trough switch, ball count steps up again
I don't see any way to get there other than your "orange star" on the "P" contact and it seems OK
Can it be a score motor switch?

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#23 6 years ago

Hi mrbanjo
thanks for "clarification" and looking-up the "stuff in question". Yes, little gremlins are at work - are we allowed to say "P-Relay faulty pulls-in and faulty makes the Add-Player-Unit to step-up" ? Do You have proof ? Did You / do You see the P-Relay pull-in ? Or did You / do You have the playfield down but have mounted an Test-Light (mounted parallel to Coil on P-Relay) lighting-up ? If You do not have proof we are not allowed to say "P-Relay faulty pulls-in an so the Unit is stepped". There is ANOTHER way to step the Player-Unit - when we start a new game: The stepping of the Player-Unit is (starting a new game) done WITHOUT the P-Relay pulling. See the upper right corner in the JPG: I wrote an "burgundy red 'P' " to the switch named P in the JPG --- when playing, changing player / ball: Through "switch named P" upwards flows current --- but when we start a new game: Upper right corner leftbound through Switch on S-Relay and/or Switch P5B - then Switch SB2 and leftbound - current flows to make the Player-Unhit to step.
IF (if, if) "Switch named SB2" is faulty and the little gremlins make the S-Relay to pull-in (the little gremlins do not make the P-Relay to pull-in): Faulty stepping on the Player-Unit.

I wait for You to write "have proof" that the P-Relay faulty pulls-in (((then we look at the wiring to the Coil on P-Relay - "Through Switch" or "Self-Hold-Switch on P-Relay" --- these two wirings I see in the schematics - we then start to unsolder wires (one by one) until the fault no longer shows up - respectively sneaking in a stripe of paper in both switches to keep them open))).

As I am waiting for You to write "have proof": Lets do some theory. See the lower part in the JPG. Lets say You have THREE bonus on the bonus unit - the motor is not running - You loose the ball - the ball rolls into the Outhole and so closes the "Ball Return Switch". Along "my green lines" runs Initial-Current and the Q-Relay pulls-in - a switch on Q-Relay closes to make the motor to run. The motor starts running and after turning maybe 1 or 2 degrees: "Switch motor-1C" closes and keeps the motor "to run for the rest of the turn of 120 degrees - actually to 118 / 119 degrees". ALSO "another Switch at position motor-1C (encircled rosa / pink)" opens and cuts "my green wiring" - no problem as the pulling Q-Relay keeps closed its "Self-Hold-Switch" - along "my red lines" Self-Hold-Current to the Q-Relay is flowing. The motor turns further - the motor is made to run by TWO switches closed: "Switch closed on pulling-Q-Relay" and "Switch-motor-1-C (Self-Hold-Switch) on the motor". The motor turns further - comes towards the end of the turn --- Motor-Switch-2B opens and so cuts "my red lines, Self-Hold-Current of Q-Relay" - Q-Relay let go - opens its Self-Hold-Switch in the red lines - also opens its switch that was keeping the motor to run --- no problem for the motor: As motor-1C still is closed: The motor can turn further --- finally coming to 118, 119, 120 degrees - motor-1C opens and motor stops.
While the motor was turning and the Q-Relay was pulling: Not shown in the JPG: The Bonus-Unit has been stepped down - when stepping from ONE-bonus down to ZERO-Bonus: In my green lines the three-bladed switch moves /has moved. Then another feature can start: Feature "Ball is in the Outhole - no bonus - the pin actuates the O-Relay to do some stuff" - the rest of the feature is alike "feature Q-Relay" as far as motor turning and establishing Self-Hold-Current. Do You agree on the funtioning of such features ?

Back to "troubleshooting": Please always make some points (tens / hundreds) - do NOT make bonus --- the ball entering the Outhole therefore directly starts the O-Relay-feature.
Do I remember correct (?) - did You write "faulty behaviour starts BEFORE bonus is completely stepped down ? Lets simplify for a while - lets do testing "NO BONUS on the Bonus-Unit - the O-Relay must pull-in when the ball enters the Outhole - whats happening ? Greetings Rolf

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#24 6 years ago

Hey Rolf! Talk about your Gremlins.....I found the issue!
I had the playfield up and manually going thru your suggestions of the "P" relay actually pulling when the issue
occurs and yes it was pulling when the ball return switch would be made.........................
What is was and not sure why, the leaf switch for the ball return switch was sometimes shorting against the side of the kicker
mechanism, as I manually activated the switch, the "P" relay was pulling! That's why so intermittent.
(pic below)
Isolated it away from each other and game plays as it should now. Is this possible and why would this pull the "P" relay?
Thank you Rolf! You sacrifice your time to help so many on here and it is DEEPLY appreciated!
I always look forward to reading your posts and admire your knowledge.

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#25 6 years ago

Hi mrbanjo
great - You have found the fault. I would have to make some crummy assumptions - the metal housing below the Outhole has some more connections - many "ifs" and "maybes" --- lets say "we live with the miracle - no theory".

I do know on Williams pins "metal housing of a stepper unit can be part of a circuitry / wiring" so the following this is loosely "same logic / stuff as Your Outhole-housing". To start the explanation --- first: There is a big difference "AAA Gottlieb" - "BBB Williams and Bally" in the logic of wiring - making the circuitrys.
AAA: From transformer-power-side runs a wire to fuse - then wire to a switch - another wire - maybe another switch - maybe another wire - maybe another switch - to Coil on a relay / on a stepper. The other side of the coil(s) have an direct connection to "transformer-return-side-common-side".
BBB is wired opposite: Transformer-power-side to fuse to "one side of coil(s)". Switches to actuate the coils are mounted in the returning-to-transformer-common wiring (on other side of coil connection to transformer-common).
Williams sometimes has the last wire (then connecting to transformer-common) - has screwed-on the wire onto the housing of a stepper --- all metal parts used as housing / used to mechanically step the unit --- all these metal parts are hooked-on at transformer-lug-common - part of the wiring. So far I know of Gottlieb-Bronco ALSO using the housing of a unit - all metal parts - using as part of the wiring:

wizardblom here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bronco-coin-unit#post-4167859 started the topic and asked about an loose wire. On the bottom of the picture in his post-11 we can see the mentioned loose wire. In my post-9, second picture I showed "Williams solution, Shangri La: Wire attached to the metal housing" - I suggested to look for an screw that should have an wire (the wire) attached.
THEN - edrandall , post-12 showed a picture of the unit in his Bronco pin --- and we can see a screw on the metal stuff - housing of the unit with an wire (the wire) attached ...

Williams and Gottlieb Bronco use metal parts of the housing WANTED / NEEDED for the pin to function - the situation in Your pin was unwanted - is an miracle.

I like to use "Test-Light(s) mounted on a coil on a relay like shown in the JPG in post-23" --- especially when there is an "seldom / rare" fault to detect. I don't like to have the playfield lifted and for hours I chase the fault --- so on "relays in question" I hook-on Test-Light(s) - long wires coming out of the open coin-door - Test-Light(s) placed on the apron - playfield down and I play (having an eye on the Test-Light(s) ) --- and when the rare fault happens: Was there a difference in the pattern on lighting-up /Test-Light(s) ? - so I can play and narrow down on the problem. Greetings Rolf

6 months later
#26 5 years ago

Very interesting as I am having EXACT SAME issue with my 73 Big Shot. (see this link for video):
https://www.facebook.com/groups/347744179059319/permalink/487725468394522/

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