(Topic ID: 162064)

7-Digit Numeric Williams Display Question

By CUJO

7 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

trace_(resized).jpg
glass3_(resized).jpg
glass2_(resized).jpg
glass1_(resized).jpg
disp_7dn01a_(resized).jpg
#1 7 years ago

If the far most left digit is totally out and the rest are working ok, I would think it's not outgassed.

I know the display is bad as I swapped it with another on the game and the problem followed the display.

Can a cold solder joint be responsible for this "Millions" digit to be out completely or is more likely to be something internal that can't be fixed?

#2 7 years ago

Sometimes a digit or segment can be burned out. It could also be a lead on the glass, solder joint, continuity issue between the joint and the edge contact, dirty edge contact, pitted edge contact, dirty connector pin, broken wire, bad connection on the other end, issue on the display board, or something else.

With the power off, swap the displays. Does the problem follow the display that originally had the problem, or does the problem remain in the same player position?

#3 7 years ago

A cold solder joint on the display connector is a very common cause for this. If you look at the bottom side of the header pins it should be easy to spot. Reflowing all of the pins is quick and easy and will let you know right away if you have a deeper issue. Even if it does not look like a cold solder joint, reflow them anyway just for good measure.

#4 7 years ago

Ok, coffee has fully kicked in. My previous response was more thinking about Bally displays. With the Williams check the pins at the cable connector at the edge of the board as well as the pins running to the glass itself. If the glass has come loose from the PCB, check for broken legs leading to the digits that are out.

#5 7 years ago

The solder joints from where the glass connects to the PCB can break / lead rips. Check there, specially since millions is going to be an outside pin(more commonly broken).

#6 7 years ago

I touched them all up with fresh solder..No go.
I continuity tested all the pins below the "million" digit where they solder to the PCB to the pin on the edge connector. All ok there.
What I did notice was a break ( I believe on the second lead in from the left under the millions digit appears to be broken when I touch up high on the glass surface where the lead goes up. Pin 1 and Pin3 seems to have continuity to the glass lead going in.

I'll get in there with a magnifying glass for a better look.

#7 7 years ago

This is for a Gottlieb display, but the same concept applies if there are broken leads on the glass.

http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Display_Does_Not_Light

#8 7 years ago

i think I do see a break on the second from the left. I am including a pic from Great Plains Modular for reference only.
Now the fun part on to the "attempted" repair. Is there any info on which wires are for the MILLIONS digit so I can make sure I test all those properly first?

disp_7dn01a_(resized).jpgdisp_7dn01a_(resized).jpg

#9 7 years ago
Quoted from CUJO:

Is there any info on which wires are for the MILLIONS digit so I can make sure I test all those properly first?

The schematics should show it.

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

The schematics should show it.

I was just hoping someone knew off top of their head or from the pin labels on the GPM pic. Will look up tonight.
THANKS!

#11 7 years ago

On the GPM pic, digit 7 is the two pins marked A7. They're both the same thing and it looks like only one is wired on that pic.

#12 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

On the GPM pic, digit 7 is the two pins marked A7. They're both the same thing and it looks like only one is wired on that pic.

Well the first A7 from the left is definitely broken. Will try to mend tonight with needle tip Weller pen and some silver solder.

#13 7 years ago

The broken lead is the problem. I can tell it is for the millions just by how the track runs inside the glass. Id use leaded rosin core solder too. You want something that is going to flow the easiest and be sturdy here, and i don't think that is silver solder.

This is incredibly risky, but you might be able to grind out some extra glass if you need to reach the lead. I would only try that as a last resort.

How is the back of that original PCB tracked. Maybe you can just attach the two A7 pins on the solder side of the PCB to get continuity back.

#14 7 years ago

I tried to flow solder into the broken trace yesterday but was unsuccessful.

At least I didn't make things worse when I tested in back in the pin. Same as it was before.

BTW, the pic I posted was not my glass. It was a stock photo.

I can take a pic when I pull display out again and post pic here.

#15 7 years ago

How is the back of that original PCB tracked. Maybe you can just attach the two A7 pins on the solder side of the PCB to get continuity back.

Barakandl,

Hmm. The A7 on the far left is the broken one but the second A7 is good (4th from left).
Are you saying I can run a jumper between those two A7 pins on the back solder side?

#16 7 years ago
Quoted from CUJO:

Are you saying I can run a jumper between those two A7 pins on the back solder side?

Yes, if there's no track connection between the two A7 pins on the back solder side of the PCB, then just connect a jumper wire between the two A7 pins.

#17 7 years ago

I don't think this will work in my case. Here's actual pics of my glass.

glass1_(resized).jpgglass1_(resized).jpg

glass2_(resized).jpgglass2_(resized).jpg

glass3_(resized).jpgglass3_(resized).jpg

#18 7 years ago

nope attaching the two a7's won't work since there is no lead going into the glass.

#19 7 years ago

Look like this lead is broken/cut as well, but maybe I'm just seeing things

trace_(resized).jpgtrace_(resized).jpg

As for the front side, the display is already not working right, so I'd definitely try to carve a little bit of the glass out with a sharp x-acto like Andrew said if you're gonna replace it anyway.

#20 7 years ago

I ran a little test while display it was in the pin.
I attached a test lead clip to the leftmost A7 wire and then used a needle tipped pin on the other end to prob the lead at the glass edge.
I got the MILLIONS digit to illuminate as the game was in attract mode, flashing the default HI-SCORE. yea.

So it's fixable ... I know I'll probably need to carve some glass out per Andrew, but is there maybe a video out there on this?

Thanks!

#21 7 years ago

You don't need much to do it if you can probe it and turn it on. And it is low amperage, so you can put a jumper wire in there to do it without fear of it burning up.

If you even need to, I'd take a very sharp x-acto, gently carve out a tiny bit of the glass, just enough to shove like a 24 awg solid core wire in there. Try to do it without carving out glass first.

Tin a wire, stick the wire in there for it to make contact, leave enough of the wire stripped so you have access to heat the exposed wire without heating the end directly that is touching the glass. It should heat up and adhere itself to the exposed lead just from the tinning and you'll be in business. I do this for very fine board work with tiny little traces, and it works fine. After it is tested and working, tape down the wire so it doesn't break off because it'll be really fragile. And if it breaks off, just do it again. That'll prevent a messy soldery mess on the glass and potential damage.

You can also tape the wire down first too with like an inch or so at the end untaped, enough to manipulate it to solder it in place. That makes it easier to solder and will keep it from breaking off in the taping process.

#22 7 years ago

Thanks thedefog...Will try it this weekend and report back.

#23 7 years ago

Another option may be to use car defrost repair compound or conductive silver repair glue. e.g. something like this maybe:

www.ebay.com/itm/121747544740

I've never used it so can't vouch for how effective it is, but do a search on ebay for more options.

#24 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Another option may be to use car defrost repair compound or conductive silver repair glue. e.g. something like this maybe:
ebay.com link: itm
I've never used it so can't vouch for how effective it is, but do a search on ebay for more options.

Can anyone chime in? I may buy this stuff anyway as one of my connectors broke off on my Ascender's rear window (defrost).

#25 7 years ago

There's videos on Youtube of guys repairing their car defrosters with compound repair kits. Worth looking at to get an idea.

#26 7 years ago

Just a thought, if you do consider going this route, I'd test it first with two bare wires taped to some glass with their ends close to each other to see if you can bridge them and make an effective connection before using it on your actual display.

#27 7 years ago

Wire glues don't work very well at all in electronics. If they did, everyone would use them instead of soldering. The problem is that they add additional resistance into the circuit path. Draw a line with the stuff and grab your DMM, and you'll see even a 1" line has several ohms of R from all of the millions of microscopic breaks in connectivity in the path.

Wire glue has plenty of practical uses elsewhere though, like defogging. But I wouldn't trust using it on electronics.

#28 7 years ago

Granted, but this a specialized repair where solder isn't sticking, and it's not a 1" break.

This silver conductive pen states low resistance:
www.ebay.com/itm/262005129796

This type of display repair has been done before:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fixing-a-dead-dmd-column-or-row-cherry-4205-dmd#post-322449

This one failed but I think it would have worked better with thin flex wire.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dmd-row-9-is-out

I would say the trick is to use wire between any distance of break, and use thin strand wire so it's less stress on the repaired joint.

#29 7 years ago

Update: Took a 1.0" long very thin single strand copper wire and made an "L" at one end with pliers.
Pushed it down so it layed on top of the A7 lead right where it comes out of the glass and hits the "bead" before it bends down to
the PCB board.
Carefully soldered it there and it took.

Connected the other end of the bare wire to the lead just above where it enters the A7 PCB hole.
Soldered the other end there.

Voila! We have MILLIONS DIGIT back in business!

Thanks to all that offered advice.

#30 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Granted, but this a specialized repair where solder isn't sticking, and it's not a 1" break.
This silver conductive pen states low resistance:
ebay.com link: itm
This type of display repair has been done before:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fixing-a-dead-dmd-column-or-row-cherry-4205-dmd#post-322449
This one failed but I think it would have worked better with thin flex wire.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dmd-row-9-is-out
I would say the trick is to use wire between any distance of break, and use thin strand wire so it's less stress on the repaired joint.

Good point

1 year later
#31 6 years ago
Quoted from CUJO:

Update: Took a 1.0" long very thin single strand copper wire and made an "L" at one end with pliers.
Pushed it down so it layed on top of the A7 lead right where it comes out of the glass and hits the "bead" before it bends down to
the PCB board.
Carefully soldered it there and it took.
Connected the other end of the bare wire to the lead just above where it enters the A7 PCB hole.
Soldered the other end there.
Voila! We have MILLIONS DIGIT back in business!
Thanks to all that offered advice.

This thread helped me get the tens digit back for my Taxi bonus meter display, thanks from me too!

Had the problem isolated to the display but wasn't sure where to go from there. I'm curious what the grey goop is that runs across all the leads, and why a lead would break beneath it, is it corrosive?

3 years later
#32 2 years ago

I'm having a similar issue. After boot up. Player 2 and 4 are missing the first digit. Player 1 sometimes only shows 1 digit. If I am the game within 5 minutes minutes all digits are back to normal
I tried to swap a display that showed all digits to one that was missing on and the good display now doesn't show the first digit so don't really think it's the pinscores. Could be a short? Loose connection. Any ideas and possible fixes would be appreciated.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Denver, CO
$ 12.50
Lighting - Led
RoyGBev Pinball
 
$ 36.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
From: $ 9.00
From: $ 90.00
Tools
Pincoder Store
 
$ 52.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 65.00
Boards
Pinball Haus
 
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/7-digit-numeric-williams-display-question and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.