(Topic ID: 212191)

6821 PIAs from China


By oldschoolbob

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 29 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by barakandl
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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    #1 2 years ago

    I need some new PIAs. GPE doesn't have them anymore. Marco has them but 9.00 each plus 7.00 shipping!!!

    I see them on Ebay at 10 pcs for 10.00 plus 2.00 shipping from China. I've made 3 purchases from China and got burned twice.

    Has anyone got PIA's from China? Are they any good?

    Thanks

    Bob

    #2 2 years ago

    Some have "soft" pins but all the ones we have been buying for use in our replacement boards work just fine. Not a single failure (cross fingers).

    #4 2 years ago

    Jameco has been busted numerous times selling counterfeit clone parts, remarks, and non functional fake parts. Most of their stuff is fine, but specially anything NLA like 6821 is sketchy from Jameco. They buy from China and then mark it up, so you might as well buy right from China.

    Quoted from Homepin:

    Some have "soft" pins but all the ones we have been buying for use in our replacement boards work just fine. Not a single failure (cross fingers).

    I am thinking the "soft legs" is part of their pulling and refinishing process. They some how stamp new legs on the ICs or they can solder bath them so they come out near perfect and straight. Can be a little sticky on new IC sockets. I usually wipe a new IC socket with one of my NVRAM modules and then the "soft legs" mate nicely and securely in the socket without trying to rip the socket contacts out upon removal.

    I am still hoarding boxes of HD68B21P, but they will run out eventually. I recently tried these from AliExpress. 30 out of 30 worked fine and lived through at least a 24 hours burn in on a Bally MPU. I got EF6821P by STM all dated around 1996-1998
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-lot-EF6821P-MC6821P-6821/32386539110.html

    #5 2 years ago

    Well, so I far I am not having any problems with any of the PIAs or CPUs from Jameco. I am hoping they are tested at some point before shipping.

    ??

    Also is there a good all-I-n one IC tester that will test PIA and CPU parts?

    #6 2 years ago
    Quoted from PinballManiac40:

    Also is there a good all-I-n one IC tester that will test PIA and CPU parts?

    The Neoloch tester can test PIA chips.

    Quoted from PinballManiac40:

    Well, so I far I am not having any problems with any of the PIAs or CPUs from Jameco. I am hoping they are tested at some point before shipping.

    Well, you got lucky. I've gotten counterfeit chips, and chips that are one thing and have been remarked as something else.

    NLA = No Longer Available. Legitimate 6821 chips are not being manufactured and are NLA from most retailers.

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from PinballManiac40:

    Well, so I far I am not having any problems with any of the PIAs or CPUs from Jameco. I am hoping they are tested at some point before shipping.

    ??
    Also is there a good all-I-n one IC tester that will test PIA and CPU parts?

    I think NeoLoch makes one. I have not tried it tho. Their ram tester has checked every single NVRAM module I have ever made and going strong. I have to say I don't like the blade system. I kinda wish they had a stand alone PIA tester and RAM tester now that I have an older stand alone RAM tester.

    It is hard to fully test the PIA. You can even get a PIA that is able to read a port, but can't drive it, leaving it working in one setup but not in another. In most cases I have found if the PIA can drive a port, it could aslo read it. Bally U10 is a good place to test a PIA. I think it uses all the ports and goes between reading ports and driving them for switches, display latching and lamps. When I sold used pulls of these things I had a zif socket on a MPU and that is how I tested them.

    As for Jameco if you google around you will find reports of people getting fake/mis marked 6502s. 74HC chips labeled as 74 plain, and etc. I still use them for the 22pin 0.4" 5101 sockets but that is about it.

    #8 2 years ago

    Isn´t the W65C21 a good substitute?? Never tested that, should order soon some from mouser.

    #9 2 years ago

    Now I am getting a headache.

    #10 2 years ago
    Quoted from german-pinball:

    Isn´t the W65C21 a good substitute?? Never tested that, should order soon some from mouser.

    From what the literature states, it should work. I'd also be interested to know if anyone has used these with good results.

    #11 2 years ago
    Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

    From what the literature states, it should work. I'd also be interested to know if anyone has used these with good results.

    Im using a W65C21S6TPG-14 in my Firepower and it works as expected.

    #12 2 years ago

    Thanks for the suggestions. I ordered 10 from Aliexpress but they have about a 30 day shipping time, so I also ordered 2 (plus a few other things) from Jameco. That should cover all the bases.

    Thanks

    Bob

    #13 2 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    Jameco has been busted numerous times selling counterfeit clone parts, remarks, and non functional fake parts.

    I just bought a few of the last LM323ks (at great expense shipped to Australia) that were available from Jameco, assuming they sell only legit stock, now I am not sure even about them...

    #14 2 years ago

    I've bought small quantities of 6821 from various Chinese sources and haven't had any issues.
    .

    Quoted from Joydivision:

    I just bought a few of the last LM323ks (at great expense shipped to Australia) that were available from Jameco, assuming they sell only legit stock

    There's recently been some super cheap LM323K from China listed. Knowing they were most likely too good to be true I got some anyway just incase: Below pics are what I got and they are NOT LM323K spec devices. Likely only 1 amp capable.

    See the pics below and compare to these links noting the size of the actual wafer and heat spreader it is/isn't mounted to:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lets-get-technical-ballystern-led-display-power-consumption#post-2983421

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lets-get-technical-ballystern-led-display-power-consumption/page/3#post-3278633

    If what you get comes with large blue dielectric around the pins then junk them.

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    #15 2 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    If what you get comes with large blue dielectric around the pins then junk them.

    The ones I have from Jameco have the green dielectric around the pins & looking with magnification some of the fine surface scratches on the top from shelf wear can be seen to run over the markings & scratch the ink, which would indicate the stamping is old & got scratched with the metal over time, as opposed to fresh re-stamping over existing scratches. These appear to be genuine.

    I also have definite genuine ST lm323ks I bought many years ago, well before fakes were around, they have the blue dielectric around the pins.

    The National 323ks on the top are the ones from Jameco & The STs on the bottom are genuine from years ago. The STs also have the blue dielectric, but it looks like a smaller blue dielectric compared to yours, that must be the way to determine the difference when comparing a genuine ST to a fake as STs use blue also.

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    #16 2 years ago
    Quoted from Joydivision:

    The STs also have the blue dielectric, but it looks like a smaller blue dielectric compared to yours

    Yeah, the large size blue dielectric is the giveaway of an underspec fake.

    Fake 78H05 regulators with the same appearance as the LM323 photos I posted above:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lets-get-technical-ballystern-led-display-power-consumption#post-2984679

    #17 2 years ago

    i was wondering why all my new lm323 were bad , i bought 50 and none worked.

    #18 2 years ago

    A part like LM323K is one to be highly suspicious of. Power transistors and Voltage regulators are not something to buy from China (or Jameco as far as I'm concerned) as the clones are greatly underspec'd. They will work if you don't run them anywhere near the limits, but if you drive them hard, poof.

    With a precise scale you can usually weigh a transistor or v-reg against a known real one and tell is a fake clone. The silicon / whatever inside of them is heavier on real parts.

    I had a box used as repackaging come in recently. I noticed the box was a FAKE STMicro packaging for 7805V. It had Engrish and an upside down logo on it just like the Clone M2732As come in. This stuff is winding up in the hands of domestic resellers. People reselling parts should pay close attention.

    For voltage regulators its time to come up with good switching buck regulator retrofits. I have a 5v power supplies running off of LM2679T-5.0. They are like $5 each but run really cool/efficient and play nice in pinball boards as long as you wire it up right.

    2 weeks later
    #19 2 years ago

    Update - I received two PIA's from Jameco a few weeks ago. Put them in my Wild Fyre and that fixed the problems I was having.

    Then I ordered a PIA tester from Neoloch. I tested the 7 questionable PIAs I had in my parts drawer - 5 were good and 2 bad.

    Today I received the 10 PIA's from China. 9 tested good - 1 bad. Better than I expected. Not bad for 10.00. But they seem to be all different markings? And some look like they been scuffed up and dirty.

    The Neoloch tester is going to be an invaluable tool.

    In my parts drawer I found 2 IC's marked SC44067P. I checked on line and found they seem to be a replacement for the 6821. They checked good in my tester. Anyone ever heard of this? Will they work in a pinball?

    Thanks

    Bob

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    #20 2 years ago

    Neat tool, but that puts you about $110 out of pocket (if you buy the bundle that includes the 6821 blade) and power supply, aren't you?

    No experience with the SC44067P but would be interested to hear if they work out.

    Richard

    #21 2 years ago

    Where is Poly Paks and B & F Enterprises when you need them?

    #22 2 years ago

    I bought the bundle kit and power supply - About 80.00. The kits were easy to build and the instructions were easy to follow.

    I enjoy building these kind of kits.

    Bob

    #23 2 years ago

    The chips probably get scuffed up from being in a large stack of heavy PCBs. Sometimes the scuff marks are even 0.1" spaced like a dip40 chip was scratching it from above. The one with the unique logo is SG Thomson and was made when they became/bought out by STMicro in the late 80s.

    I think the SC44067P is a classic Stern part number? Or at least I would see those labeled chips on mpu100 boards usually. 620-29 is Bally part number that will be stamped on pias for earlier Bally games. A lot of times you can even tell motorola 6821 imprint was scratched off and changed it to 620-29 for Bally.

    #24 2 years ago

    barakandl, from an rgp thread in 2010 where the SC44067P was being discussed between you and Tony Holdgate, he posted that it's a 6820 and I think seymour shabow backed him up on that (although there was also some mention that the schems were incorrect related to a nearby IC.) --- https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.pinball/m0GAa6X5M9k for a little blast from the past.

    Richard

    #25 2 years ago

    You guys got my curiosity up. I had to find out where I got those SC44067P's from. I usually take photos of the games while I'm working on them. I found a photo from 2015 of a Trident I was working on.

    I guess I replaced the PIA's with new ones (probably because they were still available from GPE).

    The game was in really good condition and wasn't played for 15 years - was in this guys basement for 20 years. I'm guessing those PIA's were original.

    Bob

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    #26 2 years ago

    Also SC44216P = 6800, I have marked down SC44067P = 6820
    Probably years ago the operators techs were using what ever they salvaged. I found most of mine on Bally boards, not Stern ones. Doesn't mean anything, they could of been used as repairs on Williams boards also if they socketed them. I have bought those weird Russia marked 6821 which seem ok.

    #27 2 years ago
    Quoted from someotherguy:

    barakandl, from an rgp thread in 2010 where the SC44067P was being discussed between you and Tony Holdgate, he posted that it's a 6820 and I think seymour shabow backed him up on that (although there was also some mention that the schems were incorrect related to a nearby IC.) --- https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.pinball/m0GAa6X5M9k for a little blast from the past.
    Richard

    yeah its def a 6820 PIA, but why that part number??? probably a Stern thing based on how often they are stuffed into MPU100 boards is my guess.

    5A-8972 is WMS number for PIA if I remember right. Motorola did the same thing for WMS as they did for Bally. You will find some chips with the normal 6821 imprint visibly scuffed off and the WMS part number was stamped on.

    #28 2 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    You will find some chips with the normal 6821 imprint visibly scuffed off and the WMS part number was stamped on.

    I think Stern did the same thing. Look at the photo above - maybe that's what the scuff marks are.

    Bob

    #29 2 years ago
    Quoted from oldschoolbob:

    I think Stern did the same thing. Look at the photo above - maybe that's what the scuff marks are.
    Bob

    Yep. Looks like Motorola changed the imprint to a custom part number for their customer (Stern?).

    Williams 6820 pia part number I believe is 5a-8972 .

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