Westover, WV
I have a Williams Dealers Choice pin it has a 117v 50hz transformer and a 27v 50hz score motor causing the machine to count down bonus really fast. My question is what can I do to slow the score motor down. Thanks.
(Topic ID: 187020)
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Dealer's Choice
Williams, 1974
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1) Replace the motor (http://www.pbresource.com/motor.html#wmsem) or
2) (too expensive) Buy a 60hz to 50hz Frequency Converter or
3) (haha) move to another country
Aarau
Hi musickerns
You may do a HACK (and a very good documentation of the hack - and a latter owner still may curse You).
How do You like the speed in stepping down the Bonus-Ladder when You have made Double-Bonus ? Start a game, make Double-Bonus and let the ball drain --- do not look at the Score-Drums, do not listen to the Score-Drums --- ONLY look at the Bonus-Ladder on the Playfield and watch the Ladder stepping down. Do You like the speed of stepping down when You have made Double-Bonus ?
IF (if) You like the speed --- want to try "a bit closer to 'reality maybe to come' " ?.
See the JPG: "encircled green" is the stepping down --- 'Single Bonus is fast - done by SCM-Impulse-A' --- 'Double and Triple Bonus is slow - done by SCM-Wheel-named-Four---Switch-4C' ".
Further down in the JPG: The "making thousands of points" --- on the bottom of the JPG You see "Reality in Your pin" --- wire-color-red-white comes from far away - comes to one of the Switches --- either to SCM-1C or to SCM-2C. And a short Jumper-Wire of any color connects these two switches. CUT*** the connecting wire. Then start a game, MAKE*** Double Bonus - let the ball drain and see and listen the Score-Drum. THIS is what You'd get when making the hack. Of course - Doing the hack: MORE is to be done as You want to have the functionality of Single-, Double-, Triple-Bonus.
(((Make*** is needed in this little testing - because we did not fumble on "encircled green switch" - we did it simple - You made Double-Bonus)))
(((Cut*** can easily be "undone" by soldering together or mounting a plug (K-Mart etc., Automotive Departement, Car-Electrics)
When You REALLY want to do the HACK: We must fumble on "encircled green switch" and on "encircled brown switch" --- and do a VERY GOOD documentation. Greetings Rolf
Quoted from HowardR:1) Replace the motor (http://www.pbresource.com/motor.html#wmsem) or
2) (too expensive) Buy a 60hz to 50hz Frequency Converter or
3) (haha) move to another country
The option is to leave it as is! 
I would. Not worth the trouble.
Melbourne
Quoted from musickerns:I have a Williams Dealers Choice pin it has a 117v 50hz transformer and a 27v 50hz score motor causing the machine to count down bonus really fast. My question is what can I do to slow the score motor down. Thanks.
A big ceramic resistor
Find a 60hz motor and swap it out. Don't like those imports that count fast, but I chuckle when I watch the Australian videos. Their games sound like they're on 'ludes! Send your 50hz motor to one of those guys down under.
Quoted from musickerns:Before I spend $90 will the 60hz motor do the trick?
Yes. It should. Me, I'd scrounge one from a parts game. Come to the Allentown show and you'll likely be able to find one in the flea market el cheapo.
Quoted from MikeO:Yes, source a 60hz motor from a US parts game and swap them out.
Mike I kinda like the 50Hz motor in my FarOut, the bonus count down is too long anyway
Quoted from pinhead52:Mike I kinda like the 50Hz motor in my FarOut, the bonus count down is too long anyway
Sacriledge.
So let me get this straight, even though the transformer is 117v 50hz changing only the score motor to a 60hz will slow the bonus count down.
Quoted from musickerns:So let me get this straight, even though the transformer is 117v 50hz changing only the score motor to a 60hz will slow the bonus count down.
yep. ac motors will sync to the sinusoidal wave of alternating current. A 50Hz motor is running 20% faster on 60 Hertz
What does the frequency have to do with the transformer anyway? In other words, what's the difference between a 50 hz and 60 hz transformer?
Would they be wound differently?
Quoted from pinhead52:Mike I kinda like the 50Hz motor in my FarOut, the bonus count down is too long anyway
I had a "Hot Shot" a long time ago with a 50 hz motor in it. Sometimes it had trouble accurately tallying the points because the score reels couldn't keep up at the higher motor speed.
Quoted from jrpinball:What does the frequency have to do with the transformer anyway? In other words, what's the difference between a 50 hz and 60 hz transformer?
Would they be wound differently?
Nothing.
There is absolutely no difference. There's no such thing.
A transformer will output the exact same frequency it receives. Only voltage/current is 'transformed'. If you send it a 120Hz, 120v signal, it will output a 120Hz signal on the other side. The windings will determine the output voltage/current available.
If someone tries selling you a '50Hz' transformer, tell them that you'll trade it for a bridge in Brooklyn.
At higher frequencies you can get away with using a smaller transformer (50 Hz unit would be larger than a 60 Hz for the same job). At an extreme, computer type switching power supplies use very high frequencies, and much smaller transformers than linear power supplies.
Quoted from jrpinball:What does the frequency have to do with the transformer anyway? In other words, what's the difference between a 50 hz and 60 hz transformer?
Would they be wound differently?
Quoted from Coyote:Nothing.
There is absolutely no difference. There's no such thing.
A transformer will output the exact same frequency it receives. Only voltage/current is 'transformed'. If you send it a 120Hz, 120v signal, it will output a 120Hz signal on the other side. The windings will determine the output voltage/current available.
If someone tries selling you a '50Hz' transformer, tell them that you'll trade it for a bridge in Brooklyn.
That's what I thought even at the start of this thread. The motor would certainly be affected by the frequency, but as you said, 60hz in, 60hz out.
I'm just not understanding how changing the score motor to 60hz will change the motor speed, but I can see how changing the output voltage would. Besides I really don't want to change the output voltage because that would slow down the playing action.
Quoted from musickerns:I'm just not understanding how changing the score motor to 60hz will change the motor speed, but I can see how changing the output voltage would. Besides I really don't want to change the output voltage because that would slow down the playing action.
Just the opposite is true. I can't explain it from a theory standpoint. If you have a voltage that is close the motor doesn't distinguish in its performance unless there is not enough voltage. But the frequency (hz) does impact it. You have a 50hz motor running on 60hz power. It will run fast. Apply a 60hz motor and it will run normal.
Quoted from musickerns:I'm just not understanding how changing the score motor to 60hz will change the motor speed, but I can see how changing the output voltage would. Besides I really don't want to change the output voltage because that would slow down the playing action.
Yeah, see, it's an AC motor, so the motor's configured to run at a set speed for a given frequency input.
Say, for example, the motor runs 1 full revolution per second at 60Hz.
If you give it 50hz, then it will run 50/60th (or 5/6th) of a revolution per second. That's slower.
If the same motor is configured for 50hz - 1 rev/second at 50Hz, and you give it 60Hz, it will run 60/50th of a turn - or 1.2 revolutions / second. Faster.
Voltage will come into it as well - the above example is assuming giving the motor the voltage it requires across all tests.
Quoted from musickerns:...does anyone know where could I get a used score motor?
Quoted from jrpinball:I'd scrounge one from a parts game. Come to the Allentown show and you'll likely be able to find one in the flea market el cheapo.
Jr was referencing transformers but other parts can also be found. You might ask in the EM seeking parts thread too.
EDIT: I don't think the score motor is any different. The transformer is different because different countries use different electrical specifications. The rest of the parts in the game were the same, using whatever electricity the transformer provided. Wiredoug would probably know for sure.
EDIT 2: see post below, the manual shows different part numbers for the score motors.
Hi musickerns +
I also believe in the theory "Hertz have an influence in speed of turning an electro-motor".
A very simple (simplified) electro-motor has an permanent magnet sitting on the axis. North pole is opposite of south pole. They run around in a circle. Along that outside are mounted coils - they get rhytmically magnetized "South pole" then "North pole" then "South pole" etc. to pull the oncoming permanent poles. And AC-Current fed to a coil produces 50 or 60 times "South North South etc. changement". And so the engineers put as many coils along the outside as needed so the motor runs at constant speed.
I ask a proud owner of a "Space Mission" - living in the USA to count ONE minute - here the Swinging Target http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=14406 is in position "left-most". When we start a game "at constant speed the target swings to the right and back to left" --- this I call "ONE swing of the target". I started a game on my Space Mission and looked at my watch - I counted 21.5 to 22 swings of the target in ONE minute (21.5 swings in one minute).
Question: And in YOUR Space Mission ? (((The schematics says "SAME Motor used in US-Models as well as in European models))) --- How many "swings per minute" do You get ? Greetings Rolf
Quoted from musickerns:I'm just not understanding how changing the score motor to 60hz will change the motor speed, but I can see how changing the output voltage would. Besides I really don't want to change the output voltage because that would slow down the playing action.
The frequency has everything to do with the speed of an AC motor. Go on YouTube and watch videos of US games in Australia. They have 50hz, and their games run slow.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Jr was referencing transformers but other parts can also be found. You might ask in the EM seeking parts thread too.
EDIT: I don't think the score motor is any different. The transformer is different because different countries use different electrical specifications. The rest of the parts in the game were the same, using whatever electricity the transformer provided. Wiredoug would probably know for sure.
The motors are most definitely different. I don't know about transformers as far as frequency goes. Voltage, yes. European applications would require a transformer which steps 220VAC down to the voltages used for solenoids and lighting.
Quoted from musickerns:I talked to a pinball machine shop and the guy told me to just find the next tap up on the transformer. I think it would be 130v tap he said this would reduce the 24v out therefore slowing the score motor down. see photos
That would make all the solenoids on the game weak, and wouldn't have any effect on the score motor. Don't do it.
Quoted from jrpinball:The motors are most definitely different.
Jr is correct. The manual shows different part numbers.
Hi
the first JPG shows "Gottlieb 1978 transformers, availabe". The second JPG shows "Recel Universal Transformer" --- in the JPG hooked-up at lug "220 Volts". The third JPG shows my "Gtb Orbit" running in Europe, 220 VAC. Gottlieb made a nice invention --- the Adj.-Plug (see the V1 to V6) to move sideways, the JPG shows "adjusted to the right means 220VAC". A little problem for the engineers: Orbit runs the "Control Bank Reset Coil" on 110 Volts - in the USA --- ALSO in Europe. They said: In the middle of "wiring 220 VAC": WE CAN GRAB 110 VAC --- see the fourth JPG. Greetings Rolf
0-A-Dealers-Choice-Trafos-Gtb-Parts-List-78 (resized).jpg
0-B-Dealers-Choice-Recel-LL-Transformer (resized).jpg
A few months ago I had a friend move from the USA to Germany and he took his Gottlieb Drop A Card with him. He bought a very expensive step down adapter to convert the 230 voltage / 50Hz in Germany down to 110/120 volts for the machine. He said the machine was playing fine, but it was playing differently. He couldn't tell what was happening, but the game play was "different." He sent me a video of the machine in action, and I could see the score reels had a very slight delay in turning after something was scored on the playfield. A very strange issue... I think this 50Hz/60Hz mix up might be the problem... You learn something new on Pinside everyday...
To make a little faster, your friend should look for a 50hz motor on German eBay or....
Get a new one from the same company who makes the original motors....not sure which model 400AC or 406AC, both looks the same but different size......no idea how much cost.
Hi
in post-26 I wrote about "Williams Space Mission" - the Swinging Target Motor is the same motor for USA (60 Hertz) as for Europe (50 Hertz) --- the Motor runs on 110VAC, the european transformers have an outlet for 110 VAC --- but the Hertz stay 50 cycle.
I counted 21.5 to 22 swings per minute --- how many times swings the target in a minute in the USA ? Greetings Rolf
Hi
I stumbled over http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=289&picno=65833
I show it "enriched". The Bally solution "solder some connections on the transformer" is another way to do it --- look-up in the last JPG in post-31 the "Gottlieb way". Greetings Rolf
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