(Topic ID: 252538)

4k virtual pinball - it looks SO good


By toyotaboy

43 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 54 posts
  • 30 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 days ago by sniiki
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    One image has been uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    puke (resized).jpg

    There are 54 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    10
    #1 43 days ago

    I know a lot of people complain "it's not the real thing", but there are people re-modeling titles to work with 4k displays, and the detail is absolutely incredible:

    Totan

    Flintstones

    #2 43 days ago

    A step in the right direction but still gives off the "flat" feeling. I bet if whatever that xbox motion hack is called was used it would be mind blowing.

    #3 43 days ago

    now try those same tables in VR and now you're talking. That's really incredible since it addresses the 2d look.

    Ball physics continues to bring it down though but some are much better than others.

    #4 43 days ago

    It looks good but the flat look / feeling, physics being off, and everything being computer simulated (mechs, devices, the playfield, etc) still don't compare to real pinball. I built a VR pinball cabinet (front end of a pin) and even with an Oculus Rift VR headset it still doesn't compare to real world pinball. Now I blame that partially on the current headsets (4k isn't enough due to how close your eyes are to the screen) and there being pretty much 0 real world pins replicated for VR.

    In the end though, nothing will look better then the display we all already have, our eyes lol.

    #5 43 days ago

    I don't get it. My games have infinite resolution. Also they don't give me eye strain.

    #6 43 days ago

    It would be really cool if they implemented dimpling and clearcoat pooling/chipping effects that showed up over time. Then we'd have a whole new dimension of playfield issue threads. Strap on your seatbelt!

    #7 43 days ago

    Holy crap. That detail is next level. The textures on the play card and skirt look like video of a real machine. I really need to try one of these in person. I only have room for one pin and that likely won't change any time soon. Might be a viable solution for my situation.

    #8 43 days ago

    Looks incredible to be honest. Now light effects can’t be the same, moreover for GI. For me, looking at a screen is hard for the eyes after some time and I live my young year nostalgia with the real thing. I do have pinball arcade on my ipad though but it’s not the same.

    #9 43 days ago
    Quoted from CLEllison:

    A step in the right direction but still gives off the "flat" feeling. I bet if whatever that xbox motion hack is called was used it would be mind blowing.

    On future pinball it's called BAM (using 2 webcams or 2 IR trackers), and I agree. If you have that resolution plus a 3d look (without glasses), it would be hard to tell the difference.

    Quoted from dung:

    I don't get it. My games have infinite resolution. Also they don't give me eye strain.

    virtual pinball doesn't break, and you can have multiple tables in the same cabinet instantly without playfield swaps which is important for people with limited room (say people that live in a city apartment)

    19
    #10 43 days ago

    Wow they've even found a way to make 4K pinstadiums to light the thing up like shit

    puke (resized).jpg
    #11 43 days ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Wow they've even found a way to make 4K pinstadiums to light the thing up like shit [quoted image]

    Oh Christ, now you’ve done it. Pinstadium guy is gonna be talking to himself In his thread now for the next two weeks. Weirdly, his confusing digital robots actually make a little more sense in a VR machine then a real one.....

    #12 43 days ago

    Virtual pinball is garbage. I was faked out by youtube videos and built a table. It just feels shitty compared to real pinball no matter how high the resolution. I sigh when I see threads like this because another sucker is going to be tricked into investing a few thousand into one of these disappointment machines like I was.

    #13 42 days ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    virtual pinball doesn't break, and you can have multiple tables in the same cabinet instantly without playfield swaps which is important for people with limited room (say people that live in a city apartment)

    And you get none of the sensation of a physical machine with seemingly random ball play. What's your point? Would you say a motorcycle is a good substitute for a horse? Important for people who live in apartments with limited room.

    #14 42 days ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Would you say a motorcycle is a good substitute for a horse?

    No, but playing racing games on a playstation (which is virtual) is a good substitute for not being able to afford $200k exotic cars I'll never own. It's not nearly as good, but it's the closest I'll get to it. Some people can't afford a big pinball collection, I just think virtual is sometimes a nice alternative. It's also always a great way to document games (IE having a reference of exactly how the game looks, sounds and plays). The people that spend countless hours making these should be appreciated the same way everyone appreciates IPDB for photos and manuals.

    #15 42 days ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    No, but playing racing games on a playstation (which is virtual) is a good substitute for not being able to afford $200k exotic cars I'll never own. It's not nearly as good, but it's the closest I'll get to it. Some people can't afford a big pinball collection, I just think virtual is sometimes a nice alternative. It's also always a great way to document games (IE having a reference of exactly how the game looks, sounds and plays). The people that spend countless hours making these should be appreciated the same way everyone appreciates IPDB for photos and manuals.

    Just curious - have you ever played a virtual pinball?

    #16 42 days ago
    Quoted from fattdirk:

    have you ever played a virtual pinball?

    yes.. on my computer and at pinball shows. I know there's a little lag, but it doesn't bother me. I think the lag will go away at some point the same way the first 3d video games sorta sucked, but now they're smooth and enjoyable. And I'm not saying they need to replace the real thing, but they have their place.

    #17 42 days ago
    Quoted from fattdirk:

    Virtual pinball is garbage. I was faked out by youtube videos and built a table. It just feels shitty compared to real pinball no matter how high the resolution. I sigh when I see threads like this because another sucker is going to be tricked into investing a few thousand into one of these disappointment machines like I was.

    This 100%. Virtual dont play anything like a real table.
    Only good for learning rule sets.

    #18 42 days ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    yes.. on my computer and at pinball shows. I know there's a little lag, but it doesn't bother me. I think the lag will go away at some point the same way the first 3d video games sorta sucked, but now they're smooth and enjoyable. And I'm not saying they need to replace the real thing, but they have their place.

    There should be no lag if you build properly. 4k monitor NOT a tv and a strong enough gpu and you're set.

    Virtual is a great alternative. Doesn't replace but compliments simple as that

    #19 42 days ago
    Quoted from fattdirk:

    Virtual pinball is garbage. I was faked out by youtube videos and built a table. It just feels shitty compared to real pinball no matter how high the resolution. I sigh when I see threads like this because another sucker is going to be tricked into investing a few thousand into one of these disappointment machines like I was.

    I think it's fun to play virtual pinball on a tablet or phone on the go but yeah the whole full size table stuff does seem like a waste of money and space in my opinion. The people I know that have had one were always tweaking it and frustrated with it. I've seen multiple full size virtual pinball ads on here over the years and a majority of the sellers are selling it to buy a real pin...

    Overall I think virtual pinball is cool, I just don't want to invest a lot of money into it. I'm still excited to see where VR pinball takes us but table development in that space seems to have stalled. A huge positive from virtual pinball is that it has made real pinball machines only more popular.

    #20 42 days ago

    haha, You guys are crazy for all the flack you give vPins! After I picked up my vPin I seem to play that more often than my real ones. With the hundreds of tables, DOF, SSF, PuP Packs, customization, and all the color patches/pallets you just can't beat it. They are the absolute best bang for your buck and not to mention only take up the space of one machine

    #21 42 days ago

    I once built a vp cab,
    It was pretty cool but nothing compared to real pinball.
    Yes it can be fun, yes its looking better each new version, yes physics are getting better
    But its always a little off imo.

    But i must confess i am to ocd for it, i kept changing settings per table and trying to get that real ball feeling
    I was putting so mutch time in tweaking testing, and then feeling mweeehhh
    And some tables are better then other.
    Future pinball had some cool features but visual pinball is mutch better.

    You better start with a monster power pc if you ever want to build one.
    Also tv or monitor screen lag can be a bitch.

    #22 42 days ago

    Virtual pinball is a lot like a woman with implants, fun to look at, but feel all wrong. Not to mention a box of lies....

    #23 42 days ago

    The most up to date VPX physics are pretty great. Played Tron on location, came back home and adjusted the table dimensions based on the location pin experience and then played a few games. The ball bounces, scoop ejects, and loops all played identical to the location game. Was even able to hit the Gem shot off the TRON bank. I think most folks on Pinside base virtual pinball off of FX2, FX3, and Stern Arcade experience. But VPX on a cabinet with full feedback, especially with high resolution monitors is pretty fantastic. Unless a game has a specific mech that can't really be translated to virtual reality, then games are pretty close to real.

    #24 42 days ago
    Quoted from Crile1:

    The most up to date VPX physics are pretty great. Played Tron on location, came back home and adjusted the table dimensions based on the location pin experience and then played a few games. The ball bounces, scoop ejects, and loops all played identical to the location game. Was even able to hit the Gem shot off the TRON bank. I think most folks on Pinside base virtual pinball off of FX2, FX3, and Stern Arcade experience. But VPX on a cabinet with full feedback, especially with high resolution monitors is pretty fantastic. Unless a game has a specific mech that can't really be translated to virtual reality, then games are pretty close to real.

    agree, especially on judging current vpx builds, because they played pinball arcade or fx2 in the past. no comparison
    ..

    #25 42 days ago

    Virtual Pinball keeps getting better. But you need a really good setup to realize how good it can be today.
    IMO most opinions of how bad it is are based on playing an older or non-optimal setup - and the fact that many people won't be happy with something that's not 100%. If I can have 200 Machines that are 90% as good as the real thing in the space of 1 game, that's a big win for me.

    #26 42 days ago

    Virtual pinball is getting closer and closer to the real thing.

    Gonna be awesome when they finally sort out 3d and physicality. Will be funny to see all the old men defending their hobby to the bitter end!

    #27 42 days ago
    Quoted from Crile1:

    The most up to date VPX physics are pretty great. Played Tron on location, came back home and adjusted the table dimensions based on the location pin experience and then played a few games. The ball bounces, scoop ejects, and loops all played identical to the location game. Was even able to hit the Gem shot off the TRON bank. I think most folks on Pinside base virtual pinball off of FX2, FX3, and Stern Arcade experience. But VPX on a cabinet with full feedback, especially with high resolution monitors is pretty fantastic. Unless a game has a specific mech that can't really be translated to virtual reality, then games are pretty close to real.

    I'm a huge proponent of VP and built the best possible out there. I also own a real Tron pinball machine

    The VPX representation is DEF not identical to the physics of my real tron.

    Yes it feels and plays similar and yes you can bank but identical? Def, def not.

    #28 42 days ago
    Quoted from delt31:

    I'm a huge proponent of VP and built the best possible out there. I also own a real Tron pinball machine
    The VPX representation is DEF not identical to the physics of my real tron.
    Yes it feels and plays similar and yes you can bank but identical? Def, def not.

    I don't know Delt. I went home thinking of getting a Tron, then played some games on my cab and changed my mind. I'm running TerryRed's PUPPACK verion. It has full screen movie clips with overlay animations, color dmd, and custom sound mix using original soundtrack. It's pretty great. I get that it is not real. But its pretty great and since I already have the cab, it's 6--10K cheaper!

    #29 42 days ago
    Quoted from delt31:

    I'm a huge proponent of VP and built the best possible out there. I also own a real Tron pinball machine
    The VPX representation is DEF not identical to the physics of my real tron.
    Yes it feels and plays similar and yes you can bank but identical? Def, def not.

    so are you saying real tron machines play identical??

    #30 42 days ago

    look good, terrible to play.

    #31 42 days ago

    Whenever I try these VR setups at shows, there's noticeable lag in flipper response. Even the new ones being sold by vendors have this problem. Is it because these are using second-rate hardware? Is this still a problem with custom high-end systems? Has this been overcome on any platforms?

    #32 42 days ago
    Quoted from HighVoltage:

    Whenever I try these VR setups at shows, there's noticeable lag in flipper response. Even the new ones being sold by vendors have this problem. Has this been overcome on any platforms? Is it because these are using second-rate hardware? Is this still a problem with custom high-end systems?

    They could install better GPUs and better 4k monitors with higher refresh rates (144hz), but they're very expensive. That could get the screen refresh a lot higher and make the game visually appear smoother. However, depending on the software there might be hard limits to how often the game can update the screen per second. Many video games tend to lock to 30 or 60 frames per second for performance and visual reasons. Some games do have higher caps like 90 or 120 FPS or even unlimited. No frame cap would then be able to get input lag down to 1/144 of a second (the software is running at the same rate that the monitor refreshes), which is a hair under 7 milliseconds. I think someone did some tests here before and found flipper input lag on a WPC to be around 2-4.5 ms

    #33 42 days ago
    Quoted from Rondogg:

    Virtual pinball is getting closer and closer to the real thing.
    Gonna be awesome when they finally sort out 3d and physicality. Will be funny to see all the old men defending their hobby to the bitter end!

    Virtual is never the real thing by definition. No need to defend anything that is real imo.

    #34 42 days ago
    Quoted from Crile1:

    I don't know Delt. I went home thinking of getting a Tron, then played some games on my cab and changed my mind. I'm running TerryRed's PUPPACK verion. It has full screen movie clips with overlay animations, color dmd, and custom sound mix using original soundtrack. It's pretty great. I get that it is not real. But its pretty great and since I already have the cab, it's 6--10K cheaper!

    yeah all of that extra stuff is just that, extra stuff. I think TerryRed is an incredible talent.

    It's def a nice to have but just keeping it real. You're a collector. If you really want a tron, I would buy the tron.

    VP for me is perfect to play and experience those games that I wouldn't buy but still enjoy playing.

    #35 42 days ago
    Quoted from HighVoltage:

    Whenever I try these VR setups at shows, there's noticeable lag in flipper response. Even the new ones being sold by vendors have this problem. Is it because these are using second-rate hardware? Is this still a problem with custom high-end systems? Has this been overcome on any platforms?

    yes - it's not built properly, trying to cut costs. There should really no longer be noticeable lag but that depends on how it's built.

    #36 42 days ago
    Quoted from TreyBo69:

    I think someone did some tests here before and found flipper input lag on a WPC to be around 2-4.5 ms

    It'd be more interesting to know what the lag on the simulations are. The FPS analysis makes sense, and I'm guessing these are mostly running at 60fps, but I'm skeptical they are responding by the next frame. If it were, that would be ~17ms. Likely it's 2 or more frames, which puts it in 30+ ms range. An order of magnitude slower than the real thing, which is why it's so noticeable.

    Has anyone built something that gets 144fps? I guess you need substantially more expensive monitors then, which the pre-made commercial ones likely don't use. I suspect there's more in the software simulation that prevents next-frame response, and even on those high-end systems, the 7ms theoretical reaction isn't actually achieved. But would love to hear subjective opinion if anyone has such a setup.

    #37 42 days ago
    Quoted from Rondogg:

    Virtual pinball is getting closer and closer to the real thing.
    Gonna be awesome when they finally sort out 3d and physicality. Will be funny to see all the old men defending their hobby to the bitter end!

    Expect it will never be real. Pinball in so popular because it's a physical game that exists in the real world. Virtual pinball can get to 16k resolutions with depth effects, etc and yet it will always just be a simulation. Also, physics in a game will never match those in the real world.

    Some super virtual pinball fans act like VP will be the end of real pinball and that is complete BS. The latest car racing video games look incredible but that doesn't stop people from buying the actual cars in those games. In the end nothing beats the real thing.

    #38 42 days ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    In the end nothing beats the real thing

    correct, and im not arguing that point. REAL pinball is better, but virtual is getting good.

    another example, theres people that are tweaking GTA to look more real (extra detail, higher resolution). lots of videos on youtube if you search 4k gta. IMO its too shiny, and the higher detail ends up making the physics look worse.. but the original programmers never intended for someone to tweak it but perhaps its a glimpse at GTA 6 which might have even better physics to match the new detail.

    #39 42 days ago

    Personally I think the best immersive virtual pinball experience today for the price is an Oculus Quest with Pinball FX2 VR. No PC required, no giant cabinet, much more immersive then 2D VP, 3D depth perception, etc. Price $400 for the headset, $15 for the game (plus any additional tables).

    Also, Oculus is releasing an update to allow a Quest to connect to a PC to play any PC VR game. Theres also a ton of other non pinball VR games to be played on the thing.

    #40 42 days ago
    Quoted from HighVoltage:

    It'd be more interesting to know what the lag on the simulations are. The FPS analysis makes sense, and I'm guessing these are mostly running at 60fps, but I'm skeptical they are responding by the next frame. If it were, that would be ~17ms. Likely it's 2 or more frames, which puts it in 30+ ms range. An order of magnitude slower than the real thing, which is why it's so noticeable.
    Has anyone built something that gets 144fps? I guess you need substantially more expensive monitors then, which the pre-made commercial ones likely don't use. I suspect there's more in the software simulation that prevents next-frame response, and even on those high-end systems, the 7ms theoretical reaction isn't actually achieved. But would love to hear subjective opinion if anyone has such a setup.

    It would be interesting if they tackle the same issue that some video game emulators have started to utilize. The games were designed around CRT providing essentially minimal lag and on HDTVs several frames of lag are introduced. To combat that, the emulator is basically "rolling back" the emulation by using multiple save states. The game will output to the TV, detects an input, rolls the software back a few frames by using the save states, inserts the input command where it "should be", and then outputs that to the TV and begins to refill the buffer. It happens so fast, you don't notice it doing anything but it substantially cuts down on the input lag. The problem is it takes a lot of computational overhead to make it all feel seamless.

    #41 42 days ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    correct, and im not arguing that point. REAL pinball is better, but virtual is getting good.
    another example, theres people that are tweaking GTA to look more real (extra detail, higher resolution). lots of videos on youtube if you search 4k gta. IMO its too shiny, and the higher detail ends up making the physics look worse.. but the original programmers never intended for someone to tweak it but perhaps its a glimpse at GTA 6 which might have even better physics to match the new detail.

    Most of those mods are usually modified shader files which can make the lighting and shadows look more realistic (by making fewer approximations in the math). The texture quality, polygonal count, etc are all the same.

    #42 42 days ago

    Are slide saves legal tho?

    #43 42 days ago
    Quoted from wlf_:

    Are slide saves legal tho?

    Shoot, with some basic coding skills you can turn a button into a save button to where when you press it the game puts a wall over the outlanes I used to do that when I was play testing games I was building. Wanted to test a ramp, build a wall and make it colidable with my magnasave button.

    VP has it's place and is good at what it's there to be, a fun video game. If you go into it thinking that it's going to replace the real thing then you will be extremely disappointed.

    I used to love VP and became an author. After spending 100's of hours making table after table I got burnt out and now my cab just sits in the corner of my office collecting dust. Heck, I recently pulled the computer out of it to make a dedicated streaming PC.

    I've debated selling the shell (it's got all the bells and whistles) but not sure if I could actually do it though

    #44 42 days ago

    Stop trying to make VP happen.

    It's a novelty at 480p. It's a novelty at 4K. It's a novelty at 16K.

    It's nothing most pinball players/collectors want to play beyond a few flips at a pinball show, and there's literally no working pinball flipper game on Earth that wouldn't be more worthy of a precious slot in anybody's collection. It's a cool novelty on your PC or phone but doesn't work in a full-size pinball bank.

    #45 42 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Stop trying to make VP happen.
    It's a novelty at 480p. It's a novelty at 4K. It's a novelty at 16K.
    It's nothing most pinball players/collectors want to play beyond a few flips at a pinball show, and there's literally no working pinball flipper game on Earth that wouldn't be more worthy of a precious slot in anybody's collection. It's a cool novelty on your PC or phone but doesn't work in a full-size pinball bank.

    I disagree regarding the precious slot 100%. That is the primary reason for a VP machine. 1 slot for 200 (or more) virtual games that there is no way I could acquire all of those real games, is better to me than 1 more real pinball. If I only had 5 games or so, I would feel differently - but at a relatively large collection, I've got plenty of real games (but I still want more LOL) - so the VP fills that gap great at the current VP quality level. Especially for EM's and Solid States which are hard for me to justify a slot in my collection for.

    Example: I really enjoy WH2O, JunkYard, EATPM, Taxi, Diner and a handful of EM's (just to name a few). But I know that these games are not "worthy" to replace any of the other games in my collection. But with 1 slot for a VPin, I can play all of these anytime I want - even if the experience is slightly diminished, as long as it's still fun, and it is LOL.

    #46 42 days ago

    .

    #47 42 days ago
    Quoted from T7:

    I disagree regarding the precious slot 100%. That is the primary reason for a VP machine. 1 slot for 200 (or more) virtual games that there is no way I could acquire all of those real games, is better to me than 1 more real pinball. If I only had 5 games or so, I would feel differently - but at a relatively large collection, I've got plenty of real games (but I still want more LOL) - so the VP fills that gap great at the current VP quality level. Especially for EM's and Solid States which are hard for me to justify a slot in my collection for.
    Example: I really enjoy WH2O, JunkYard, EATPM, Taxi, Diner and a handful of EM's (just to name a few). But I know that these games are not "worthy" to replace any of the other games in my collection. But with 1 slot for a VPin, I can play all of these anytime I want - even if the experience is slightly diminished, as long as it's still fun, and it is LOL.

    Williams Toledo > 4K VP!

    #48 42 days ago

    I think VP is cool ....to play stuff you'll never likely ever get to play in real life.
    The argument of virtual sex VS real sex though.... if you're choosing the former instead of the ladder you need a new partner ; )
    I've seen soooooo many stories of people spending $4k plus to build one and eventually they sold it. Theyre fun, but you just can't compete with the real world.
    But back tot what the OPs point is... yes VP has come a very long way and has indeed gotten much much better.... you are correct!

    #49 42 days ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    So what you're saying is you prefer the woman on the right, than the left? [quoted image]

    Well, yes. The woman on the left is prob a stuck up biotch. The one on the Right would treat me like a god.

    Substance my friend, much like the virtual pinball debate.

    #50 41 days ago

    Ah the tired old debate continues. What is certain, more people play virtual pinball than real pinball, it's instantly accessable to anyone anywhere in the world and it can be played competitively online.

    Pinball is pinball, whether it's real or virtual has no relevence. The more people that play and enjoy pinball the better.

    It's not an elite club for high earning middle aged men, it's for EVERYONE.

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    € 40.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    YOYOKOPTER MODS
    $ 5.00
    £ 29.00
    Lighting - Led
    PinballToys
    From: $ 19.95
    $ 25.00
    Cabinet - Other
    Filament Printing
    $ 999.00
    Flipper Parts
    Mircoplayfields
    From: $ 99.00
    Lighting - Under Cabinet
    Rock Custom Pinball
    $ 14.95
    $ 7,899.00
    Pinball Machine
    Classic Game Rooms
    $ 86.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    From: $ 9.99
    $ 25.00
    Displays
    Pappy's Pinball Palace
    $ 150.00
    Cabinet - Toppers
    Rock Custom Pinball
    From: $ 5,799.00
    Pinball Machine
    Music City Pinball
    From: $ 99.99
    Cabinet - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 109.95
    Cabinet - Armor And Blades
    Hookedonpinball.com
    $ 229.99
    Lighting - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 27.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 249.00
    $ 115.00
    Boards
    AMCO
    $ 24.00
    $ 74.99
    Playfield - Plastics
    Pin Monk
    $ 200.00
    Lighting - Interactive
    Professor Pinball
    $ 69.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    There are 54 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside