(Topic ID: 299823)

Fixed - 4 Million BC Restore - A Couple of Problems

By Enaud

2 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 14 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Enaud
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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Advance ball assembly-4 (resized).jpeg
SCM-6F problem (resized).jpg
Testing releays (resized).jpg
16313080263103206339489399515704 (resized).jpg
4MillionBC Ball Count Step Up (resized).jpg
Advance ball assembly (resized).jpg
#1 2 years ago

I have gotten a 4 Million BC (German) and am getting the bugs worked out. Getting pretty close. It's in great shape. Here's my problems.

The easy problem:
I have one problem when playing a three player game.
A one player game, two player game and four player game plays fine. But on a three player game it isn't advancing from Player 3 ball 1 to Player 1 ball 2. Instead the sequence is like this:
Player 1 ball 1
Player 2 ball 1
Player 3 ball 1
Player 3 ball 2
Player 1 ball 3
Player 2 ball 3
Player 3 ball 3

The hard problem:
This machine is missing the Advance Ball Assembly. This is the assembly that locks the ball and stages it down for multiball. I found pictures of the mech and it looks pretty complicated. Unobtainium, I imagine.
Does anyone have a parts machine perhaps that has this unit? Fingers crossed!
Thanks!

#2 2 years ago

You mean the tar pit walker mech? I might have one. Do you have the coil part at least, or is the whole thing just gone

#3 2 years ago

Yes, it's the tar pit mech. The entire assembly is missing.
There's three little stand up posts that when the coil energizes, it drops the ball down to the next stand up post, until it goes all the way through back into play.
Advance ball assembly (resized).jpgAdvance ball assembly (resized).jpg

#4 2 years ago

When the Ball Count Advance solenoid fires its end of stroke switch should fire the Player Reset relay which in turn should fire the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid and return the Player Up Unit to its reset position (player 1).
4MillionBC Ball Count Step Up (resized).jpg4MillionBC Ball Count Step Up (resized).jpg
Most likely your Player Unit is gummed up and not resetting reliably. But if the Player Reset relay and Player Unit Reset solenoid don't fire reliably when player 3 drains in a 3 player game they may be the problem.

/Mark

#5 2 years ago

I rebuilt the player unit today, along with everything in the backbox. There was a bit of dirt there, but it's all cleaned up and looking good (in the backbox). Major clean-up, but the issue persists.
Next I'll pull out the base board and start tackling all the switches and relays there.

#6 2 years ago
16313080263103206339489399515704 (resized).jpg16313080263103206339489399515704 (resized).jpg
#7 2 years ago

Wow! That's exactly what I need! PM sent your way.
Thanks!

#8 2 years ago

I've cleaned up the base board. All relays and switches. Verified contacts are good.
I verified that when player 3 ball 1 drains, the Player Reset Relay does engage as it should.
This makes the ball count advance solenoid fire and the ball count advances. But the Player Unit Up Reset solenoid does not fire.
This is just on a three player game for ball 1. Any other combination works fine. So, that makes me think the relay switches are registering okay.

Same situation occurs on a five ball game as well.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

I verified that when player 3 ball 1 drains, the Player Reset Relay does engage as it should... But the Player Unit Up Reset solenoid does not fire.

What about the other relays that need to fire for the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid to fire? Do the 3rd Ball, Ball Index and Ball Release relays all fire at the same time as the Player Reset relay?

#10 2 years ago

I took the playfield out so I could get a good video of the relays. Plays great in slow motion on my iphone, but not so when on the computer.
Anyway, here's what happens on a 2 Player game, Player 2, Ball 1:
Ball index - on prior to ball drain. Then when the drain happens:
Outhole relay on
3rd ball relay on
Outhole relay off AND Ball release relay on
ball count unit steps up AND Ball index relay off AND Player reset relay on
Ball release relay off AND 3rd ball relay off
Player Reset off

In this scenario it works correctly. Oddly enough it has very rarely worked correctly like this on a three player game. But 99.9% it dosen't.

Here's what happens on a 3 Player game, Player 3, Ball 1:
Ball index - on prior to ball drain. Then when the drain happens:
Outhole relay on
3rd ball relay on
Outhole relay off AND Ball release relay on
Ball count unit steps up AND Ball index relay off AND Player reset relay on *** AND Ball release relay off AND 3rd ball relay off ***
Player reset relay off AND Ball release relay On and then Off.

So, I gotta figure out why the 3rd ball relay off AND Ball release relay off are happening too soon.

This not normal scenario has happened a couple of times on a four player game with player 4, also.
Testing releays (resized).jpgTesting releays (resized).jpg

#11 2 years ago

Check score motor cam 6 switch f normally closed for a week or dirty connection. Schematic is blurry, might be cam 5 switch f.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

Anyway, here's what happens on a 2 Player game, Player 2, Ball 1:
Ball index - on prior to ball drain. Then when the drain happens:
Outhole relay on
3rd ball relay on
Outhole relay off AND Ball release relay on
ball count unit resets AND Ball index relay off AND Player reset relay on
Ball release relay off AND 3rd ball relay off
Player Reset off
In this scenario it works correctly.

Hmm. Starting with the ball drain I think the sequence should be:

Outhole relay turns on when the ball closes the Outhole switch.
Outhole relay starts the Score Motor.
The ball is kicked into the trough by the Motor 4D switch.
Whenever the ball reaches the correct trough switch (depending on the volcano and tar pit) the 3rd Ball relay fires.
3rd Ball relay may relax briefly when Motor switch 6F opens, but will reactivate because the trough switch is still closed and the Outhole relay is still active.
Outhole relay relaxes when Motor 10C switch opens.
Ball Release relay fires when the Outhole relay relaxes since the ball trough switch is still closed.
-- End of first score motor cycle --

-- Start of 2nd score motor cycle --
Ball Release relay is active so it keeps the score motor running into a 2nd motor cycle
3rd Ball relay is still active.
Ball Index relay has been active for ages if any points were scored before the ball drained.
After the last player's ball drains the Ball Count steps up (not reset) when the Motor 3B switch closes.
When the Ball Count drive arm closes its EOS switch, the Player Reset relay fires (soon after motor 3B) and holds.
Motor switch 4B fires the Player Up Unit reset solenoid (since the Player Reset, 3rd Ball and Ball Release relays are all active).
Player Up unit should reset to Player 1.
Ball Release solenoid kicks the ball to the shooter lane when Motor 4D switch closes.
Ball Release and 3rd Ball relays relax when Motor 6F switch opens.
Player Reset relay relaxes when Motor 1D switch opens.
-- End of 2nd score motor cycle --

You could try to verify this by disconnecting the score motor service jack (if there is one) and turning the motor cams by hand.

#13 2 years ago

Whoop whoop! Got the ball in play problem fixed! Thanks for the walkthrough, MarkG.
Studying my videos, it looked like 3rd ball relay and the Ball release relay were dropping out early. So, I spent a lot of time last night pouring over the schematics. It looked like if SCM 6F wasn't latching consistently, that could possibly be a problem.
So, this morning I checked it out. It was making contact, but not as solidly as I would want it to. When it makes contact it should ever so slightly bend that blade just a little. So, I adjusted it to make a better contact, and now it's working great!!!

Zacaj has the Advance Ball Assembly coming to me soon. It's alive!!! Looking forward to getting this thing restored!!!

SCM-6F problem (resized).jpgSCM-6F problem (resized).jpg
#14 2 years ago

Fixed!
The SCM 6F switch resolved my ball count/player problem.
Big shout out to zacaj! He sent to me the Advance Ball Assembly unit that he had. I received it in the mail yesterday.
Just took a few minutes to install it this morning. Now everything is working 100%!
Whoop whoop!
Now I will be moving on to a deep clean-up, disassembly, etc. I'm going to do a total restore on this machine. It should be a beauty when I get finished.
(Will take a few months, I imagine, but it will give me something fun to do over the fall and winter.)
I'll post some pics when it gets finished.

Thanks again, zacaj.
Cheers.
Duane
Advance ball assembly-4 (resized).jpegAdvance ball assembly-4 (resized).jpegIMG_9460 (resized).JPGIMG_9460 (resized).JPG

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