(Topic ID: 305883)

4 Horsemen headache

By Pinorama

6 months ago



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  • 6 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 months ago by jrpinball
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#1 6 months ago

Any woodrail guys out there clued up with early Gottlieb woodrails?
Working on a 4 Horsemen and can't get to to reset properly for love or money.
It is pre motor switch so Clay's start up sequences don't cover this era.

The issue is on start up: it will reset the points stepper and 100K stepper, count the 10 k unit down by the 10k relay, then advance from - 1 position on the 100k; but then the 100k relay locks in when the 100k is at the zero position.
Thee are no stuck switches on the playfield.
If i manually advance the 100k unit to the 200k position it comes good and plays as normal.
Got me stumped.
Any help appreciated.

#2 6 months ago

The start up seq sound like it is working normally up to the point that the 100k stepper goes from -1 to zero position. Does the circuit that accomplishes this step (that is, the one to the 100k step up coil that closes via contacts on the 10k stepper when it steps from 90 to 0k) go through the 100k relay (M-relay I assume)? Can you upload this part of the schematic as well as the part that shows the 100k relay circuit?

Otherwise, it sounds like the machine works normally otherwise—I assume this means that when the 10k stepper steps from 90k to 0k that the 100k stepper steps normally and the 100k relay doesn’t stay engaged. Is this the case?

#3 6 months ago

You don’t say whether the 1 point also advances to the zero position?

“The 100,000 relay is energized by the 10,000 unit being in the reset position and a negative one switch on the Points unit (and score motor switch 1A, and a switch on the ball release tray solenoid activator arm).”

I had a similar symptom but for me it was a combo of the points stepper not getting to -1 (gummed up and over-tensioned) and a switch inside the 10,000 unit (had to disassemble to discover the switch) not working.

#4 6 months ago
Quoted from tfduda:

The start up seq sound like it is working normally up to the point that the 100k stepper goes from -1 to zero position. Does the circuit that accomplishes this step (that is, the one to the 100k step up coil that closes via contacts on the 10k stepper when it steps from 90 to 0k) go through the 100k relay (M-relay I assume)? Can you upload this part of the schematic as well as the part that shows the 100k relay circuit?
Otherwise, it sounds like the machine works normally otherwise—I assume this means that when the 10k stepper steps from 90k to 0k that the 100k stepper steps normally and the 100k relay doesn’t stay engaged. Is this the case?

Thanks for the replies.
when the 100k stepper goes from rest position (-1) after the 10 k rests, it stops on zero but the M relay energises and stays pulled in. If I manually roatet the stepper finger off the zero rivet and to the next position, the 100k coil de-energises. Its a bit strange since the contacts that energise the step up are open at the zero position as far as I can tell. I will upload schematics, I'm not great at reading these and with this fault I have been all over the schematic trying to work it out.

Quoted from tfduda:

The start up seq sound like it is working normally up to the point that the 100k stepper goes from -1 to zero position. Does the circuit that accomplishes this step (that is, the one to the 100k step up coil that closes via contacts on the 10k stepper when it steps from 90 to 0k) go through the 100k relay (M-relay I assume)? Can you upload this part of the schematic as well as the part that shows the 100k relay circuit?
Otherwise, it sounds like the machine works normally otherwise—I assume this means that when the 10k stepper steps from 90k to 0k that the 100k stepper steps normally and the 100k relay doesn’t stay engaged. Is this the case?

Thanks for the replies.
So when th 100k stepper goes to zero through the 10k stepper and stops at zero the m ( 100k) relay pulls in and stays energised.
The only way I can get stop it , is to move the 100k stepper arm two notches to the right or remove the earth wire from the 10 k stepper unit( found this out by accident).
Have attached some pics of schematic.
I have also put up pic of 10 k but which has a set of contacts on the rt side that are always closed lol x rpt when the 10k coil pulses. These switches were open when I first looked at the game and it appeared there was an actuator arm missing as the switches did not open or close at any time. I had to rotate the switches so the drive arm on the coil actually opens the switches when the coil pulls in. I guess this is what needs to happen looking at the schematic

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#5 6 months ago

According to the schematic, the M-relay will stay engaged through completed circuits associated with the following switches: a NC ON ADD 100K sw, a NO S-relay switch, a NO E-relay switch, and a few others associated with the N-relay/10K stepper.
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Check to see that the NC ON ADD 100K switch is opening when the 100 K stepper steps (it should be on the back of the stepper). If that is OK, then is the associated NO S-relay switch open (S-relay should be disengaged)? I don’t think the associated E-relay and N-relay/10K stepper switches are to blame, but could be worth inspecting too if the NC ONN ADD 100K or NO S-relay switches are fine.

And in terms of the 10K stepper problem, you didn’t upload a photo. It sounds though that your 10K stepper has both right and left hand side switches that are actuated by the actuator arm. Steppers like this that I have seen usually have an extension on the actuator arm that engages switches on one side. I have had a stepper like this in which the extension had broken off the arm and so did what it sounds like you did and moved the switches around so that they could open/close properly when the stepper steps. As long as they’re opening/closing properly, you should be good to go.

Good luck!

#6 6 months ago

Those old games are notorious for having cold solder joints.
Gently yank on a few suspected wires. One or more might just pop off with very little persuasion.

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