My two cents: as long as you're making your own models and not duplicating some unique creative effort there's no reason to not share.

It's cool that people make and sell 3D printed mods, but most of the value in them is for people without printers and know-how. The 'real' mods are the ones that take things beyond scraping a part off a print bed and popping it in a box, that's the way you protect your market, by adding more creative value.

I honestly consider a 3D printer a must have tool these days. They're just so incredibly useful in so many ways for almost anyone, but if you're into pinball that's especially true.

As some of the others have stated when you design something that is totally your design it is up to you what you do with it - share, sell, keep to your self.

If it is a copy of what someone else has done and they were the original - but it is just for you, that is ok, but if you share it or sell it - that is not cool.

Thingiverse likes you to attribute someone else if it is a variant of another person's design.

Some designs take alot of hours to get right and it sucks when someone copies your design and starts selling your design.

if that is your design and you selected that you are the design licensee then they should not be selling them - at the very least they should be getting your permission and offering some financial kickback

This /\
I team with Mezel mods, LERmods, and sparky.. I do make a side living so I know about mods. Couple experiments I tried:

A. For twister, I created an aftermarket fan mod (so you can eliminate the very noisy stock one). I think I sold one? I uploaded all the documentation and STL files for anyone to make their own about 6 months ago in the thread. Haven't seen a single person try to build their own yet (and I had one person ask me if he could)

B. I make some LCD mods, but they are very time consuming to build.. So I decided to put together a DIY kit (where I provide a generic bezel, all the electronics, and instructions for building it). I did this both so the buyer could save money, and so I have less work on my end. I think I got one inquiry in 2 years to possibly build one.

Think we should start doing instruction inserts. This is a prototype for Star Wars. Death Star weakness

20201114_165849 (resized).jpg

yes I make mods and parts as well and understand that approach, but generally pinball people like to buy a finished mods.
1. I have made about 350 snackbar mods and sold about 6 DIY kits
2. I designed and made available the whomobile kits and lucky to sell 8-10 kits but not a model to have free only because it took over 60 hours to design

nice design - look forward to seeing it finished, I had thought a while back about cutting out a apron for guardians set and make it look like the main spaceship cockpit

Yeah I’m sure people trying to make money are going to be upset. They next two things I’m going to make are just mods I have seen I think are good ideas. If I model it myself and a reasonable amount of time has past I figure it’s fair game to share. That being said if mod makers want to sell there models I will happily pay for them. The problem is if they sell the model some douch is going to turn around and start selling. I’m not in this for money, if I consider what I make an hour those are damn expensive speaker rings.

MOST do just want a finished mod that's an easy install.. but once in a while I'll get a DM from someone who just bought a 3d printer "hey mind sharing your file so I can build one?". I don't think anyone actually follows through.

I'll tell you how I'm doing it.

Edit>Preferences>Add-ons
* Enable Import-Export: STL format
* Enable Mesh: 3D-Print Toolbox

This adds a Sidebar item in the 3D Viewport (press N) with 3D print-related tests. This helps a lot in finding bad meshes. I've been using Clean Up>Make Manifold lately and it often solves piddly problems without hassle.

At the bottom of 3D-Print Toolbox is Export. I select the model I want to send out and click this - very quick. I leave the options unchecked.

In Properties editor on the right:
Scene Properties>Units
* Metric
* Unit Scale 0.001000
* Length Millimeters

This is my standard setup. Your slicer may require a different scale; I'm using PrusaSlicer.

Load Blender, change settings, File>Defaults>Save Startup File to make changes permanent.

I'm glad I thought up the idea of pinball speaker light kits in late 2012 so people could call them "generic".

I'm sure when anyone prints these it WILL impact my sales. It is all I do. I conceived and designed the Speaker Light Kits for pinball machines in late 2012. No one was making anything close to them at the time. I could have charged nearly any price for them that I wanted at the time. I'm sure most mod sellers would have put them at $99 or more, but I sold them at a reasonable price that has still not been beat to this day for a same featured product. In any case....yeah....I'm not going to pretend I am a fan of this. Sorry.

Doug (SpeakerLightKits.com)

I get it.

But this is the world now. If your product is "a bracket" then people can make that at home. I think plenty of people will prefer the convenience of a pre-built kit still.

It was never hard to make a way to mount LEDs, even without 3D printing. I could make that out of wood if I wanted. Something where the work is done for you, it's pre-wired, and there's someone to offer support will always have some value.

I wonder if it is the same market segment though. I would guess the number of pinball owners that own a 3d printer is fairly small. Look at this thread, over a year old and a total of 62 posts. Not exactly lighting the world on fire.

Some owners will want to make their own mods, but I doubt that number is very high. I have seen my share of pinball machines, and there are very few with "home made mods". Don't get me wrong, people shouldn't violate copyrights, patents, etc., but I just don't see the number being very high.

Just my 2 cents, and perhaps I am wrong, as I am not in the business of selling mods.

Are all the speaker kits at the various vendors yours? You don’t need to be a fan but I find it hard to believe that this would have any impact on your sales. I had no idea this was your thing. It’s a cad file of a square with a few holes in it. I didn’t even share the file here. I’m sure the vast majority of people are buying from Pinball Life, Marco and the like.

It's 2020. It's not special to stick LEDs on things. I'm not trying to dunk on Dug here, at all, but if you've managed to keep a business going for 8 years that's already an accomplishment.

Try googling "pinball speaker lights" and see how many options there are. It's a generic market. That isn't an offensive statement, it's just a fact. Lots of people sell them. Lots of people package up Chinese LED strips and remotes with a markup. Anyone can buy that stuff now.

There is no reason Darscot should be made to feel guilty about making their own, nor about posting the STL for anyone else who wants to if they feel like sharing.

Some are mine being sold by resellers and others are knock offs or "house brands". I can't think of anyone currently reselling anyone else's knock offs (it has been done in the past), though I don't know the fine details of many of the other places selling light kits.

If one person that was considering a light kit from me (or from one of my resellers) downloads your file and makes one, my sales would obviously be impacted. I'm not saying it would happen much, but it would happen and that would be an impact on my sales.

If it's just "a cad file of a square with a few holes in it." why not let others design their own? If it's a DIY project, why not let them DIY it? What I see is someone seeing your file, dl it and going into biz printing them out for others. Possibly selling them stand alone, but maybe even adding their own light strips and electronics and becoming the next speaker light kit knock off. I've seen it done before.... maybe they won't even sell them on a website or forum, but just sell them to the local pinball crowd. Believe me...I see these things. I get contacted for help with "Jim Bob's speaker light kit" that come in their Austin Power's they just bought, from time to time. I see more of these knock offs than anyone else I would suspect. I can usually tell when a new seller has set up shop when I get an influx if acrylic only orders from the same area......not by coincidence, that is why the price on my acrylic designs are 33% higher than they originally were. So in the case of my Speaker Light Kits...competition hasn't helped anyone except the guys doing the knock off copies. It's actually raised the prices on the acrylic designs for all of the buyers.

No, I would suspect the vast majority buy from me, but losing any of those sales is not anything I like the idea of. I take care of business and you would be hard pressed to find any complaints on my products or service. I come up with the idea. I've done the work. I do what I do well and offer a quality product at a reasonable price. I don't sit on my hands and wait for others to come up with new designs and features for me to copy. I do the innovating and I offer the Speaker Light Kits and the accessories a person may want or need. I just wish others would stay in their lane, as seeing people copying my ideas (or making them easier to copy) gets incredibly frustrating seeing time and time again.

You have a 3D printer, the design know how and an enthusiasm for pinball.....and you can't think of anything else to make that hasn't already been done? That's what I'm really saying... also, Freddy's Pinball Paradise called and he wants his design back.

Fredshit (resized).jpg

That was quite the post. Sorry but it’s a spacer for some LEDs it’s not a design or an invention. You don’t have any rights or ownership to it. You certainly have no right to complain about what I choose to do or if I want to share it. I was only asking about etiquette to be polite and so the thread wouldn’t get polluted with a bunch of drama. I do plan on making my own version of cool mods. I won’t openly share them because I do think they have artistic merit or are genuinely a great idea. If someone from the pinball or printing community wants them for personal use I will happily share them. I’m sorry but people having been lighting shit with LEDs for decades, that you think this is your big idea is laughable.

I doubt "atomic piles for all" would go over as well with you.

I didn't say I had any rights to anything or that you didn't. I originally just kind of stated I didn't like "your" 3D model (for obvious reason). Call that a complaint if you will, but I see no reason I can't state my opinion on the matter.

My second post was mainly to address your questions and further explain my opinions, stance and past history with speaker lights and situations like this.

Then what we get on your post is you poo-pooing me for my idea, of something that no one else thought of (even though Stern had been using that same speaker panel type for 14 years by that point) and saying the same old stuff I have heard countless times before. It's real easy to say "anyone could have done that" after it's already been done. I'm expecting you were not involved with the pinball hobby in 2012, or you may remember a bit more about the situation if you were keeping an eye on the mod side of things.

Educate yourself:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinballtopperscom-new-product-light-kits

Find a picture or description of anyone adding lights to the speaker holes on a pinball machine before October 2012 and you would have a leg to stand on as far as that goes, but no one had. As obvious as it may seem to you now, no one had done it and evidently you like the idea....since you went to the effort to add them to your game....and great work on that perfect 3D model you did. Very original!

Dude this is laughable. Early 90s I went to hang with a buddy at his dorm. It was just the end of the snowboard season. I go by his room and he says you gotta see this. He fires up his PC and the room glows red. He has drilled those little red LEDs into his PC tower and those little cube sound blaster speakers. I was like WTF is this, he says wait for it and in those days PC took forever to boot. He fires up Doom and says when you play Doom it’s Hell. Doom came out December 1993 so this was probably May 94 your almost two decades late.

P.S. Just because you’re so pleasant I will openly share the file for everyone.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4675758

Please leave me out of your personal meltdown. I simply applauded the mans well done creation.

I don't think you are understanding basic reasoning here. Let's see if we can talk you through it.

Please explain where you got the notion that I am claiming that I thought up, designed, invented or created....lights in speakers? I meant PINBALL speaker lights. I figured that was obvious, since we are on a pinball forum, but you seem to be under the delusion that I think I invented all lights that have ever been in any speakers. That is not the case.

I remember back in the late 70s we had a speaker that had a weird prism light show built into it. That was the 70s, I was but a wee lad.....and I'm not claiming I thought that up. It was a speaker, it had lights, I had nothing to do with its creation. So please, if you have any examples of lights in a PINBALL MACHINES speaker holes (before October 2012), I am open to hear about it, but I have no real interest in anymore snowboarding / PC / speakers with lights /Doom stories to try to rationalize the confusion you have about what I am claiming and trying to make it seem "laughable" in your mind.

As for you releasing your 3D file, knock yourself out. There is nothing I can do about that, though I don't understand why you were the one that posted asking about the etiquette about sharing mods and said "I don’t want to take away from people trying to earn a living" yet you completely disregard and disrespect me when I bring up that it IS my mod that you are bumping up against here. I guess that was all just posturing and virtue signaling. Trying to maker yourself look like a good guy, when you obviously knew you were stepping on some toes...or you wouldn't have asked about it in the first place. I also don't understand why my mod it isn't good enough for you to respect in that aspect, yet it's good enough for you to knock off, help other knock off and put in your own game (my acrylic designs would have made that combo look fabulous SEE ATTACHMENT).

The simple question I ask here is:

If you come up with a great mod idea and it was your primary livelihood, would you want people to replicate it or help others to do that?

Doug (SpeakerLightKits.com Home of the original pinball Speaker Light Kit)

Star Trek with custom trans and speaker decal (resized).jpg

Let’s keep this on topic guys

Your coming in here with your attitude but your completely missing the point. I didn’t want to take away from anyone that actually had a unique idea or created something. I made this MAME cabinet sometime in the 2000s. I don’t remember the exact date but I know I themed it like that because American Chopper was big at the time and I liked the idea of how they always themed their builds. I take no credit for this idea it was common knowledge and part of the culture at the time. Notice those speakers, I did not put LEDs in them they were readily available everywhere. If you think I’m concerned that you borrowed something that was common knowledge and managed to pawn it off as your own I’m just all out of fucks to give.

I modelled that ring because it was the easiest least complex thing I could think of. The last thing I thought would happen is some one would get on their high horse that this was their big idea.

To those in the thread I do apologize for this drama. It was not at all what I expected and I won’t comment on this further.

P.S. I said I won’t further respond but of course you just can’t stop. Dude you are doing more damage with your attitude in this thread than I could have ever done. I’m being completely sincere when I say do your self a favour and stop.
D7933B8C-4A69-4EAD-9D28-9787ABBC2911 (resized).jpeg

Hi all which 3D printer is a good one too do all this stuff and where do u get the files too do them thanks

Downloaded and printing your file now, Thanks. Curious, Love that Mame cabinet how does that large round screen work? Is that a mask or more of a porthole look. Really cool.

It does this, no black bars for me. It looks better without the trackball. It’s painted with automotive paint in the actual early 60’s VW colours.

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I just bought Elegoo Saturn as part of the preorder but it should be available to the general public soon. There are two basic types of printers filament based and resin based. Filament is better for large objects and resin seems better for intricate details. My printer is resin based and it’s a bit messy. I wish I had both as they have different pros and cons. I made the file for the ring using FreeCAD. I think the most popular website for general stuff is https://www.thingiverse.com/ you can find basically anything there. I printed this little Enterprise but didn’t up using it on the pin. I also printed this jewelry holder for my daughter just to give you an idea of what you can do. The possibilities are endless.

88554C0E-8A9A-45E0-AD59-C21F6BCCCE11 (resized).jpeg1269C7A6-3500-438B-8FE2-FA3C63B00CD0 (resized).jpeg

...following thread

I printed a couple of these yesterday and can confirm it works with the Pinwoofer bracket on Iron Maiden. I realized after I was half way through I probably could have just used the Pinwoofer bracket and attached the LEDs directly to that. I have a few more games I'd like the try these on, I'll report back with compatibility. Thanks Darscot !

2020-12-06 11.09.22 (resized).jpg

I would expand on this to say that they're both useful, but serve slightly different needs.

If you want to make 'functional' stuff, brackets and cup holders and things that are more 'physical' you'll probably have an easier time with an FDM (filament spool) printer. They're cheap and easy to use. No smells, no special process to clean and process stuff.

If you want more fine detail, you want to print 'toys' or things that need to have more visual clarity if they're looked at up close, resin is the way to go. But it's messy and more work to print and process things. There are strong smells and chemicals, you need to wash and cure stuff, it's more involved.

If you're just getting your feet wet and don't want to spend a lot do look up some reviews of the Creality Ender 3 and see what you think of that.

Simply Wow if you made that very impressive. Love that VW spin and paint also.

I had no idea newer Sterns didn’t have big square speakers. I only expected these to fit metal DMD back boxes.

Mount them in your Beatles and be sure to get some before and after pics / videos. I'm sure it will be a big improvement.

...and still not a single example of a PINBALL machine with lights in the speakers before my light kits were available. I can't wait to see what unrelated product you are going to talk about next.

....as for "my attitude"....that I come on here with towards you. Please go back and read my original post. I don't really see any attitude there. Just me being honest and explaining my stance and opinions on a question that YOU posed.

I've been 3d printing at work since 1998. I've been printing at home for about 4 years and I still wouldn't touch a resin printer (and they too have gotten very cheap). The idea of uncured resin getting inside my body scares me (nobody is 100% careful), plus even if you never endanger yourself it can be a lot of mess to deal with. FDM is what I've always used at work and home. Yes you will have layer lines, but you can buy finer tips to help reduce it. Yes it will slow down print time, but I assume if you're wanting detail it's for a smaller object. Most creality printers are affordable and fairly easy to setup. Ender3 is very popular for a reason. Cheap, works right out of the box, and you can mod it as you become comfortable.

Biggest thing to remember: If you can't create your own models, a 3d printer will only be printing what others have designed. And no you can't magically scan an object and print it. I have a professional 3d scanner, and it only does so good of a job. EVERY scanned object will need lots of cleaning up.

We get it. You put some lights on speakers on a pinball machine. Possibly the first to do so, although doubtful. There are a lot of modders that don't share every detail, especially 10 years ago. The first to market with the product? Awesome, good job. I've heard nothing but good things. First to add lights to speakers? No. First to add lights to car speakers? Nope. First to add lights to a pinball machine? Nope. Manufactured some special lights that work better? Nope, cheap Chinese LEDs. Found a cool way to control them? Not that either. Cool in game integration? Still no. Listen, it's a cool idea otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it. The people that would print this bracket are in many cases people that wouldn't have paid full price for one of your kits, so you probably aren't losing much if anything.

Did you bug Chicago Gaming when they included lit speakers on some versions of their games? If not, why don't you head over there. I think we've heard enough here.

I don't think it's really that bad. Just requires a little care, and the right space to work in.

My Prusa Mk3 is in my office behind me now. I never worry about using it in the house, for obvious reasons. If I was resin printing it would be in the garage. Definitely not as convenient.

But I'm considering adding a resin printer to my tool kit. There are simply some things it's better for. Like any tool you have to use it right to not get hurt. Just means a little respect and proper care is all. No different from owning a table saw or the like. You can get hurt if you're careless.

Lol. Honestly if this was personal I’d be all over the Pinstadium $500 LED lights. Another Inventor of LED lol. I’m jealous I missed that opportunity.

I would want to be super careful (and a dedicated station in the garage, which would be difficult in the winter), but yea.. they are VERY tempting for sure. They have gotten cheap, and very good at printing detail. I'm sure at some point FDM won't cut it anymore if you want to keep up with other modders, and I'll have to jump in.

Agreed, need to be safe with these. Still crazy slow and the resin is still crazy expensive compared to filament. My only issue is you need to be careful which resin you use or the parts while pretty are like glass in a short time. One cold shipping trip USPS and it fragments lol. Still fun.

Naw...I don't think so. If one person wants to make a 3D model and print it...that's fine. What I don't like is people making them available for others to just download and print out. As I explained...this isn't the firsts 3D printed light holder that has been made for pinball machines. What I don't like the idea of (for commercial reason...as you stated) is these being available so any Joe Blow with a printer can print them out and list them on eBay or Pinside or sell to their buddies. This may also lead to John Doe doing the same thing, but going the extra step and adding his own light strips and controllers and then he is in business. Which would be competing business to me.

So in the way you are describing (just one person, just to try out their 3D printer or make one for themselves)...I don't mind, but if asked I would say "yeah....I'm not going to pretend I am a fan of this. Sorry." just as I did in this thread. I would have left it at that...but if am asked to elaborate about my product, which I was, I am going to give my answers and honest opinions, which I did.

My major beef is with people claiming I didn't come up with anything new and people were doing what I claim to have thought up before I did....yet not be able to give a single example of it. That is what really bothers me more than any potential sales loss. It's an ego thing....I get that. If I was just worried about the money...I would do the smart thing and shut up, but I CAN'T stand by and let someone saying it was not me that thought them up.....for PINBALL MACHINES when I know I was.

So people can do whatever they like, there is nothing I can do to stop them. I do get upset when people make false claims that I didn't come up with anything new or try to diminish my product, which they obviously like since they are making them on their own.

So why do you say "You put some lights on speakers on a pinball machine. Possibly the first to do so, although doubtful."? Why would you doubt that? There is a full thread on pinside of people ohhhhing and ahhhhing over then when they were first shown off and not a single "well I've seen that done before". So why would you doubt it? As I have said...it seems like an obvious and simple thing in hindsight. Maybe even "generic" as some have described, but no one had done it before. It really is that simple.

Also....if Chicago Gaming makes a posts and asks what I think of their speaker lights I will tell them what I think. That's pretty much what happened on this thread. Darscot made his posted about his 3D model and later asked about what people thought the etiquette was on posting files. I gave my short, simple opinion. He then come back and asked some more question to me about my product. I elaborated and answered and gave my opinion and past history with things. He then switches over to claiming I didn't think up or create the pinball speaker light kits at all and somehow, people having lights in other speakers is the the same and what I was claiming.

Sorry I have clutters this thread. I would have been fine dropping my simple opinion and leaving it at that, but I have a hard time walking away when I am asked further questions and then called a liar.

FYI, for DYI's - this is what I use for some of my mods - just sharing knowledge that was shared with me.
IMHO - most people do not want to spend the time doing this (their time is worth more than saving a few bucks).
-cpr9999

1. 3D Print: I don't own one, so I use Treatstock.com.
A. This is a very competitive eBay of 3D printing. The speaker ring above is $5 plus shipping for qty 1.
B. Very cheap with multiple companies bidding on your STL file image instantly.

2. LED lighting - go to Ebay - very cheap
A. example: ebay LEDs & control: $6
B. ebay.com link: 2835 LED Strip Light 5050 SMD RGB 30Leds m Waterproof WIFI IR Controller DC12V

So again, these are options for DYI's. Note, I do not think 90% plus people will do this, they don't want to put in the effort - this is from experience of selling mods over the last 10 years.

In the speaker example, you are looking at quantity of 2 brackets plus shipping ($18), plus LED kit ($6), plus modifying the power plug on the LED kit (connector & crimping tool), plus the right depth screw, plus access to a pinball machine to test. Probably all is in is at least $30 plus if you had to ship it. Also, access to a machine to verify is key.

Even myself who is good at this, most of the time will buy someone else's mod because of the time & effort that goes into it....including Doug's LED speaker kits (which I have). I might be able to make them cheaper in this case than what Doug sells them for, but my time is not worth saving a few pennies. Again, I say most of the time, some times these businesses don't sell what you are looking for - that is where I spend my time having fun / modding.

I don't believe anyone has anything to worry about here - most people are lazy when it comes to making their own mods.
-my 2 cents
-cpr9999

PS - EDIT- I always forget to mention the hours used to develop CAD, photoshop or other software tools used!!

Doug I'm a customer of yours and have nothing but good things to say about your product and support.
Your price point is fair for the product you selling! as witnessed by my support for you and your product with my 6 plus purchases.

This discussion and debate reminds me that 3d printing is like vhs recordings when it was first introduced , in many ways...

As stated. Creality Ender 3 pro or the newest variant whichever that is.
Cura Slicer is friendly.
1.75 PLA for the filament. Name a brand but most PLA on Amazon are decent.(read reviews and you'll get on the right track there)
Tinkercad.com to learn some basic designing.
Thingiverse.com for plug and play .stl files.
Myminifactory.com for even more cool files.
https://www.myminifactory.com/scantheworld/ for even cooler stuff.
possibilities are endless and so are the sites and files. some are paid for but most you can find for free.
-stlfinder.com
-cgtrader.com
-shapeways.com

and start on YouTube to learn the fastest ways to sift through and get started. took me a week and I was designing easy stuff and figuring out settings.

oh yeah.... you'll want to live on this site!
ALL3DP.com

I few years ago I bought some speaker light kits because they were "on sale". I'm not going to say whose they were (no, they were not Dug's, so relax). I was completely underwhelmed by the design and quality. Sure, they worked fine, but I was expecting something a little more professional considering the price. Maybe a metal bracket rather than a crudely designed printed plastic? Seeing as that I have been working for a design software company for a couple decades, and I own a 3D printer, I couldn't help but think "Why didn't I just make these myself?". So that's what I did. A couple hours work in Autodesk Inventor and I had a far superior parametric model that I could adjust and print a light bracket at any size I needed. I usually keep my designs to myself... but threads like this make me want to share.