New! Dark mode!

Browsing Pinside at night? Getting tired of all the white? Switch to dark mode using the button in the top right (or CTRL-B)!

(Topic ID: 244920)

2518-35 booting problem.


By wugly

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 111 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 months ago by Quench
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 48 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

MPU_Resistance_Readings_in_ValidPowerCircuit.jpg
pin 34 (resized).jpg
pin5 (resized).jpg
24 (resized).png
23 (resized).png
20 (resized).png
19 (resized).png
18 (resized).png
22 (resized).png
17 (resized).png
16 (resized).png
15 (resized).png
14 (resized).png
13 (resized).png
12 (resized).png
11 (resized).png

There are 111 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 10 months ago

weirdest thing. pulled both 5 volts out of connector and connected to inductor and the game boots. I am on the pinside.

putting 5 volts only into tp1 and it will not boot and tp5 reads 1.4 volts

putting 5 volts into tp5 it boots and i get 5 volts at tp1. I do not understand my problem. when I use the connector I get tp1 and 5 are 5 volts.

20191117_122405 (resized).jpg20191117_122943 (resized).jpg20191117_123005 (resized).jpg
#52 10 months ago

pulled pins off board and here is what it looks like underneath. I can not figure out why if I go throug pins to the inductors it causes the board to not boot but if I wire directly to the inductor it boots. the trace looks like it should do it itself. even if one wire is on the pins then wiring the other directly to the inductor will not boot it.

swapped the two inductors around and that has not improved the situation

20191117_193637 (resized).jpg20191117_193658 (resized).jpg
#53 10 months ago

add a jumper between the pin and the inductor maybe the through hole is cracked.

#54 10 months ago

I tried it and connected lead under of inductor to posts on connector and it still fails. I do not understand why this causes a problem going from the connector it makes no sense to me. and they are all brand new and repined. when jumpering 5 volts to inductor I have been bending and pulling the wire and it works good
20191118_075738 (resized).jpg

#55 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

putting 5 volts only into tp1 and it will not boot and tp5 reads 1.4 volts

TP1 on the MPU board is not a 5 volt supply rail. It's a jumper test point for applying logic high state (via 1k pull-up resistor) to TP7 to force the CPU VMA signal active for diagnosis of bus issues. It's discussed in the "Bally FO-560-3 Repair Procedure" manual which is available on PinWiki of you want to download it.

Quoted from wugly:

I tried it and connected lead under of inductor to posts on connector and it still fails.

So what happens if you jumper from the J4 5 volt pins to the other side of the L2 inductor effectively bypassing the inductor?

Does this game have a Bally solenoid driver board or a Stern solenoid driver board?

What happens if you change that capacitor I got you to install in the reset circuit to something much larger like a 47uf - 100uf capacitor to delay the reset release much longer?

Something about this smells like it's nothing to do with the connector/inductor and it's some other underlying issue.

#56 10 months ago

bypassing the inductor I get the flicker with no flash.

bally solenoid/regulator is the board

larger capacitors lock the the led on with no flicker have used 100 and 220.

update when i bypassed the inductor i used a jumper to go from one side to the other. tomorrow i will go directly from pin to down side of inductor.

#57 10 months ago

I can not figure out why if I connect the 5 volts to the input side of the inductor on the pcb that it starts where as the pins on the connector connect to that exact same spot and therefore the pins on the connector are connected to that same spot. with the 43 volts I can hear the relay click and get to the 7th flash.

#58 10 months ago

pulled both 5 volt wires out of connector and jumpered them together. ran a wire from the bottom of the pins on the board too the 2 wires and the game will boot. what is it about the connector that cause the game to crash? I had used a new connector and re pinned those wires?

#59 10 months ago

repined both 5 volt wires. put into a new connector head. game will not boot. pulled connector out so it was half off but pins under neath exposed, still not boot. removed both wires from connector used jumper lead to connect 1 repinned wire to a small screwdriver so I could get under connector to pins when the connector was half off. touched one of the board connectors and powered up and the board booted clicked the relay on the solenoid and got 7 flashes. is this board haunted or hate me since I connected the 5 volts.

interesting observation

when I touch the pinned wire to the inductor on either side i get no boot, I also get no boot when I hold it to tp5.
the game will boot if I use a jumper wire to connect it to these too the pins or inductor or tp5. could there be a problem with my 5 volt power supply that maybe won't supply enough current unless it encounters a resistance even though trivial? I can't measure something like that since a jumper wire would set the board to booting so any test gear would influence any results.

update
tried putting a 1.2 ohm resistor twisted on to pin and other end twisted on to tp5 since there was less chance of the 5 volts cross connecting to anything else with a unsecure connection. the board booted. any ideas?

#60 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

is this board haunted or hate me

Sorry I've been side tracked lately but yeah this setup does seem to be possessed!

Quoted from wugly:

could there be a problem with my 5 volt power supply that maybe won't supply enough current unless it encounters a resistance even though trivial?

Not really it's just a very simple linear power supply setup on the solenoid driver board.

Can you post some clear pictures of the solenoid driver board? And also the J3 solenoid driver board connector showing the wire colors?

Your oscilloscope waveforms on the first page of this thread shows a bit on noise on the supply rails. While the level isn't significant, something about it has been bothering me..
Did you by any chance replace the small 2uF electrolytic capacitor at C24 on the solenoid driver board?

Quoted from wugly:

larger capacitors lock the the led on with no flicker have used 100 and 220.

How long did you wait for the board to start? Maybe the reset delay was so long you didn't wait long enough??

Guessing the answer is probably no, but have you got another Bally/Stern game of this vintage to swap MPU or solenoid driver board with for test?

#61 10 months ago

yes I replaced c24. I waited at least 20 seconds but never saw a flicker just light locked on when using large caps to extend delay. no I do not have another bally machine to swap parts with

20191121_063508 (resized).jpg20191121_063930 (resized).jpg20191121_063940 (resized).jpg20191121_064008(1) (resized).jpg20191121_064017 (resized).jpg
#62 10 months ago

Thanks, that solenoid driver board looks mint.
In terms of its wire connectors you pictured J4 but I need to see the longer J3 connector which is the one carrying power.

Quoted from wugly:

I waited at least 20 seconds but never saw a flicker just light locked on when using large caps to extend delay.

Hmm, I wonder if this is significant because a long delay on releasing the reset should not cause the board to ultimately lock up with the LED on (no initial flicker).

#63 10 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Thanks, that solenoid driver board looks mint.
In terms of its wire connectors you pictured J4 but I need to see the longer J3 connector which is the one carrying power.

Hmm, I wonder if this is significant because a long delay on releasing the reset should not cause the board to ultimately lock up with the LED on (no initial flicker).

Hey Quench, for the continuing assistance to those in need of help with their Bally machines. Constantly see you jumping in and helping people out with very detailed pics and replies!

#64 10 months ago

here is the picture you requested

20191121_093118 (resized).jpg
#65 10 months ago
Quoted from meSz:

Hey Quench, for the continuing assistance to those in need of help with their Bally machines. Constantly see you jumping in and helping people out with very detailed pics and replies!

Thankyou
This one is turning out to be tricky!

#66 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

here is the picture you requested

Thanks, no surprise that J3 connector looks good - just wanted to make sure it wasn't hack city from a previous owner.

Can you remove the addon electrolytic capacitors in the reset section on the MPU board.
Insert the two 5V wires in the MPU J4 connector so the board is in power on LED flicker only mode (failed boot mode where the LED does not flash multiple times).

Remove both the RAM chips at U7 and U8 and power on the board. Do you get a flicker then after half a second a flash on the LED?

Next, remove both the ROM chips.
Hook up your oscilloscope.
Power up the MPU board.
With your oscilloscope, probe each of the address lines to the U6 ROM socket in order of pins: 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 23, 22, 19, 20

As you probe pin 8 through to pin 20, from memory you should essentially see squarish wave signals that halve in frequency as you go along the pin sequence listed. Is this what you're seeing (the halving of signal frequency)?

Describe what you see on the data lines on that U6 ROM socket: pins 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17

#67 10 months ago

u7 and u8 removed only flicker then dark.

u2 and u6 out I am seeing square waves that are becoming half as long period then swapping back to the larger period. pin 20 on u6 is staying consistent but is moving from side to side on time frame.

data pins
u6
9 4 us square 11 5 us square flickers to 2.5 with 2 1 volt spikes on the square wave that vanished 10 5us square goes to half period.
14,15,16,17 4us square wave 1volt spike in the trough of square wave

u2
9 ,10,11, 5us square with peak in center of 2us trough. when changes see 4 more peaks added in square wave 5us peak. 13,14,15,16,17 looks like u6 except that when it gives second signal the 4 volt peak becomes a lot of little 1 volt peaks. maybe I should record it and show you?

have to get back to you on patterns. just looked at them again and they are different. might have to shoot a video

#68 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

u2 and u6 out I am seeing square waves that are becoming half as long period then swapping back to the larger period.

This might have otherwise been a successful boot if the ROMs were in place.

Quoted from wugly:

just looked at them again and they are different. might have to shoot a video

This might have been a failed boot.

I should have asked you to also remove the PIA chips at U10 and U11. Basically so the only plug in chip is the CPU at U9. With this setup the CPU will essentially execute code from every address possible and there won't be any bogus data returned from chips still on the bus causing the CPU to jump around.
This is one effective way of checking address lines with an oscilloscope as the waveforms will show a halving in frequency as you probe (move up) the address line numbers. Data lines 0, 1, 2 & 3 should show the same activity. Data lines 4, 5, 6 & 7 should show the same activity.

Pull U10 and U11. Power on the board and quickly check if you see this behavior with your scope. Switch the system off and on a few times checking for this behavior. Is it consistent, or do you sometimes get address line waveforms doing other things?

Can you also probe the clock signals on the CPU - pins 3 and 37. You should get waveforms in the range of 500kHz - 530kHz. Is it consistent every time you power up?

Can you post very clear pictures of the U8 socket from different angles with the chip removed? Just want to see what's going on under it corrosion wise.

#69 10 months ago

sent you data with u2 and u6 pulled. got frequency of 531 to 543 for cpu seems fairly consistent. u8 was a socket I replaced so I cleaned it up with a fiberglass pen after I neutralized it. there seemed to be no noticeable difference between address lines. did not see any between data lines

#70 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

there seemed to be no noticeable difference between address lines. did not see any between data lines

Can you elaborate?. Never mind, I saw what you're talking about.
The video you sent me; is that with U9 plugged in only? (i.e. U2, U6, U7, U8, U10 and U11 removed)? Those address line waveforms are not what I expect at all.

Can you please do a manual reset on the CPU (briefly short pin 39 to pin 40). I think you said when you did this the board always booted regardless of how you had power connected.
After a manual reset, what do you see happening on those address lines?

Can I get you to take an oscilloscope snapshot across the C23 capacitor on the solenoid driver board on powerup? I'd like to see how it's filtering the 12V line especially at startup.

#71 10 months ago

Yes the chips are pulled during that video.
Manual reset never made it boot. I will get the snapshot later today

#72 10 months ago

Since the CPU is driving those signals do you think it might be wonky. I might have some spares. What speed is it?

#73 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

Manual reset never made it boot.

Argh, I thought it did. Must have been confused with one of the other MPU issue threads.

Quoted from wugly:

Since the CPU is driving those signals do you think it might be wonky. I might have some spares. What speed is it?

Yes, I am suspect of that CPU. Please try a replacement if you have them. Factory boards use a 1MHz CPU "6800", but they're only operating at half speed on these boards. So you can use any speed 6800 they will all work. "68A00" is max speed 1.5MHz, "68B00" is max speed 2MHz.

#74 10 months ago

Thought I had spares they were m68000 chips to big for the board. Ordering a chip will take awhile. Will do other tests till then.

#75 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

Ordering a chip will take awhile.

Hold off on ordering for the moment.

Can you wire 5 volts to the board in a manner that you know the board boots and put your scope on the address lines to see if you're getting as expected with them halving in frequency as you climb the address line numbers (with only the CPU at U9 installed).

#76 10 months ago

here is a picture of voltage on c23. still learning to use the usb scope. sent you video of rom chip with power config for boot but don't know with all those chips removed if it would like to boot any ways. had an accident setting it up this morning and it took me 15 minutes to realize i blew a fuse. video doesn't look like it has changed.

20191124_104757 (resized).jpg
#77 10 months ago

Wugly, I think you can save the data to file and upload it as a jpeg image. You'll get a much better image than taking a photo with a camera.

See photos here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/oscilloscopes-and-pinball

#78 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

here is a picture of voltage on c23.

Is the oscilloscope on 5 volts / division? i.e. is the peak of that voltage only going to about 8.5 volts? Can you give us a little more length in the waveform after power on, i.e. so the initial rise is on the left of the scopes image and we can see more of what happens after it's risen?

With your multi-meter, what DC voltage do you measure on the + (positive) leg of that C23 capacitor?

Regarding the MPU board address line waveforms, look at the below post from oldschoolbob who attached pictures of exactly what you're doing and what his waveforms looked like. You can see as he moved to the next address line from A0 to A1 to A2 to A3, the frequency of the address signal halved each time. And this is what we're expecting to see with nothing but the CPU installed so you can see what we're looking for.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/oscilloscopes-and-pinball#post-4515834

#79 10 months ago

getting a little more familiar with scope. hopefully this will give you enough information
c23 (resized).jpg this is c23

#80 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

hopefully this will give you enough information
this is c23

Ah, ok that looks better.
I want to try something with the 12V wire at the MPU board next. I've gotta head off so will come back later with details.

#81 10 months ago

Ok,
Pull the 12V wire out from the MPU J4 connector housing and tape the wire terminal so it doesn't accidentally touch anything.
Power up. The missing 12V will cause the CPU to be stuck in reset mode.
The address lines on the CPU should all be logic high (close to 5V) except for address A0 which from memory which should be logic low (near zero volts).
Check them with a logic probe or your oscilloscope. The address lines on the CPU are pins 9 to 20 for address lines A0 - A11 respectively and pins 22 to 25 for address lines A12 - A15 respectively.

With power still on, carefully untape the 12V wire end and slide it into the correct position in the J4 connector. This will bring the CPU out of reset. Probe a few of the CPU address lines. Do you see them halve in frequency as you probe from A0 upwards, or are they still jumping around and all looking similar?

#82 10 months ago

I followed your procedure an pin 9 was 0 pin 10 - 17 5 volts pin 18 - 25 4 volts.
I sent you pictures of the scope and you can see pins 18 to 25 still only go to 4 volts.

was wondering if I should put chips back in and remove pins that are not power from j4 and see if it boots?

#83 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

was wondering if I should put chips back in and remove pins that are not power from j4 and see if it boots?

The non-power pins on MPU J4 are solenoid related signals. They are not connected to the CPUs bus so won't be affecting program execution. They all go to J4 on the solenoid driver board and J1 on the sound board. So if you want to try it just remove those two mentioned connectors to save you pulling wire terminals out of the MPU J4 connector.

I'm attaching your CPU address line pictures below in order for reference.
I need to check something with my logic here on a board - will come back later.

In the mean time can you post a waveform of the VMA signal on the CPU at pin 5 and the R/W signal on the CPU at pin 34.

The double spikes on some of these snapshots is a bit peculiar.

CPU Address 0, Pin 9
CPU Address 1, Pin 10
CPU Address 2, Pin 11
CPU Address 3, Pin 12
CPU Address 4, Pin 13
CPU Address 5, Pin 14
CPU Address 6, Pin 15
CPU Address 7, Pin 16
CPU Address 8, Pin 17
CPU Address 9, Pin 18
CPU Address 10, Pin 19
CPU Address 11, Pin 20
CPU Address 12, Pin 22
CPU Address 13, Pin 23
CPU Address 14, Pin 24

#84 10 months ago

Boot up with all connections on or 12 volt off then blend in. Leave rom and ram off
And pia?

#85 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

Boot up with all connections on or 12 volt off then blend in. Leave rom and ram off
And pia?

In terms of taking snapshots of the CPU VMA and R/W signals, then just as the board is now with only CPU installed.

#86 10 months ago

happy thanksgiving and thanks for all the help! here is the signals for pin 34 and 5.

by the way I got a new cpu and that did not solve the problem it still will not boot with the wire in the connector but it will boot with the wire jumpered to the board.

ps I am learing a lot about this o scope which I have never pushed to it potential before. thanks for that experience which is invaluable

pin 34 (resized).jpgpin5 (resized).jpg
#87 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

happy thanksgiving and thanks for all the help!

Happy thanksgiving!

Those two signal images look ok.
This is truly bizarre.
Do you have a second oscilloscope probe and does the oscilloscope have an "external trigger" input?

#88 10 months ago

yes you have seen me comparing two signals and yes I have an external trigger which I have never used.
did some experimenting on my own and put the chips back in. with each individual wire jumping to the hot side of l2 and getting a boot I was getting 4.4 volts and 4.62 volts using the jumper wire. direct connection to the pins that caused the board to not boot got me 4.98 volts. I was very careful not to move the probe wire since I clipped it and only pushed the power wire into the connector as gently as I could. could we be getting a voltage sensitivity problem where something is being effected negatively by that fractional .3 volts?

#89 10 months ago

might be something to look into since touching the 5 volt wires directly to l2 does not boot but going through a resistor to l2 will boot it. maybe the jumper wires are not good enough quality an act as resistors. meter reads it at around 1.5 ohms after it steadies down a little but can peak when first connecting to 1.9 and then a slow drop

#90 10 months ago

Are you saying the board only boots successfully when the 5V supply is around 4.4 - 4.6 volts on the board?
And when the 5V supply is around 5 volts it fails to boot?
How are you measuring it (multi-meter or oscilloscope) and exactly where?

Do you measure any voltage between ground on the MPU board and ground on the rectifier board at say J3 pin 17 ?

#91 10 months ago

Measuring on downside of l2. Using scope. Using tp4 on mpu for ground
I will check between other grounds after dinner

#92 10 months ago

No differential between tp4 mpu and gnd strap nor gnd terminal on regulator or j3 pin 17. All at same gnd state.

#93 10 months ago

How much resistance do you measure across the L2 inductor? How does it compare to L1 ?

Have you changed the J4 female connector at any point?
If not can you post some really clear pictures of it, including looking into the holes around the power pins. Just wondering if there's any resistive corrosion in it.

Sorry I've been assuming you have the older Molex female crimp wire connectors, not the IDC connectors shown on the first page of this thread.

#94 10 months ago

The j4 connector was replaced Male and female sides. New crimp on pins got from big daddy. Have swapped the inductors around earlier when I noticed that it would not boot with direct connection will give you a resistance measurement later

#95 10 months ago

You do realize it works with less voltage
neither inductor reads any resistance.

#96 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

You do realize it works with less voltage

Yes, that's the weird part. It should be failing at low voltage and working at normal voltage.

Quoted from wugly:

neither inductor reads any resistance.

i.e. they're reading about zero ohms?

Can you go back to post #47 and do the resistance checks in the reset section as mentioned - we didn't get any feedback on that.

Oh by the way what voltage do you measure on pin 22 of the 5101 RAM chip at U8 in failed mode?

#97 10 months ago

interesting readings.read r11 twice first time red reading was 5.7M when later re read it was 1.5M and hasn't changed since black reading a little fluctuation but about 24M + or minus 1M at times. After cr5 red infinite black about 17M with a 1M fluctuation between reads. either sides 138 red is infinite black about 15M with a little fluctuation. q5 emmiter same as you. q1 base same as you. r1 r2 r3 interface pretty much the same as you. r12 is close enough too you at .98k

ps checked r11 again and got red 5.7M and black 15M

pps thought I found something with a bad solder joint on r12 but realized it went to a battery that was not there so that idea went away.

#98 10 months ago
Quoted from wugly:

q5 emmiter same as you.

You mean the Q5 collector (20k resistance readings)? Because the Q5 emitter is on the banded side of CR5 which you got different results.

Quoted from Quench:

Oh by the way what voltage do you measure on pin 22 of the 5101 RAM chip at U8 in failed mode?

How about this ^^^

BTW if you leave the MPU board in failed mode on for a few minutes, do any of the 14/16 pin logic chips on the MPU board get warm/hot?

Quoted from wugly:

ps checked r11 again and got red 5.7M and black 15M

I just checked two other boards, one never repaired reads the same as the diagram in post #47, the other board that I've rebuilt the reset section reads red 1.5M, black 5.6M at R11. These readings are affected through diode CR7.
I've modified the diagram in post #47 to indicate the resistance on the other side of diode CR7 which is the banded side. Can you please measure the resistance there both ways and report back?

#99 10 months ago

yes q5 I meant collector red infinite black 14M. r11 red 5.6M black 29 M, yes I am aware my readings on it have been shifting. cr7 is red 2.6k black 2.3k. r138 red infinite black 18M. q1 base red 16.7K black 16.7K . R1 R2 R3 intersection 8.5 k red 8.5k black. r112 still about 1k

just took board from testing resistance and plugged it into the head in what should have been a non booting format and it booted though only one time. maybe due to some residual cap charge??

tested board connected and in non boot for heat on ic. a faint bit of heat on u14 and u7 and maybe u15 hard to detect so I don't think they are eating a lot of current had to really concentrate to notice. r11 is getting hot though.

#100 10 months ago

Crap, sorry I forgot to take voltage measurements in the reset section as promised. Will do it later.

Quoted from wugly:

yes q5 I meant collector red infinite black 14M.

Q5 collector is supposed to be red 20k, black 20k. Sure you're measuring the right leg(s)?

Quoted from wugly:

r11 red 5.6M black 29 M, yes I am aware my readings on it have been shifting. cr7 is red 2.6k black 2.3k.

Do you have continuity between the non-banded side of CR7 and the right leg of R11?
Do you have any spare 1N4148 or 1N914 diodes to replace CR7 and CR5? The banded side of those diodes is away from the R11 connection.

Your variances in resistance are around Q5 and CR7. The resistances around Q1 mostly look ok.

Quoted from wugly:

a faint bit of heat on u14 and u7 and maybe u15 hard to detect so I don't think they are eating a lot of current had to really concentrate to notice. r11 is getting hot though.

U14 warmth is probably what's being picked up by the heat radiated from R11. U15 is a TTL chip so it might get a little warm so too U16. The other logic chips are low power so should run cool.

I just repaired a board where U15 and U16 got hot quite quick (they were fried) then again my board was dead unlike yours.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 119.95
Boards
Allteksystems
$ 9.00
Electronics
Yorktown Arcade Supply
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
From: $ 10.00
Electronics
Third Coast Pinball
$ 149.00
$ 22.50
From: $ 15.00
From: $ 140.00
From: $ 155.00
$ 149.95
Boards
Allteksystems
There are 111 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside