(Topic ID: 281397)

25% punitive tariff on pinball machines for EU customers


By master_of_chaos

70 days ago



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  • 329 posts
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  • Latest reply 1 day ago by Dr-pin
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    There are 329 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 7.
    #101 64 days ago

    Oh I thought some said 15%

    I have no exact numbers on any of this info... So I’m likely wrong

    #102 64 days ago
    Quoted from Faust:

    Oh I thought some said 15%
    I have no exact numbers on any of this info... So I’m likely wrong

    I don’t know exactly either not sure anyone other than Stern does but there export has to be as big if not more than their domestic. This could be a big hit for Stern there’s a lot of EU buyers out there hit by this.

    #103 63 days ago
    Quoted from J85M:

    Could be misreading your post but isn’t export about 60% of Sterns business?

    Really? I'd buy that Australia is the per-capita king of new pinball purchases, but it's hard to imagine Stern is anywhere close to a 60% export business.

    #104 63 days ago
    Quoted from Faust:

    I doubt the pinball manufacturers will mind; if only 15% is export and export drops with 40-50% then Gary Stern’s 5000 games backlog shrinks just with a tiny bit hehe

    Do you honestly think half of the orders will stick at an extra 25% cost?

    I dont.

    #105 63 days ago
    Quoted from fosaisu:

    Really? I'd buy that Australia is the per-capita king of new pinball purchases, but it's hard to imagine Stern is anywhere close to a 60% export business.

    Why do you think they give half their Limited editions to overseas markets?

    The number has been shrinking vs the commercial days.. but overseas is still a substantial portion of their business. I'd wager 40+% is my WAG from various comments made by stern over the years.

    -2
    #106 63 days ago

    Stern the pin has no coindrop
    Can this be the way to avoid this stupid tax?

    #107 63 days ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    It should be illegal to call them “pintables”.

    I don't have a problem with them calling them pintables. I don't think any of us on here own a......pintable. Nothing for us to worry about.

    #108 63 days ago
    Quoted from jorro:

    Stern the pin has no coindrop
    Can this be the way to avoid this stupid tax?

    I dont know why so many people think customs are completely idiots ?
    Haha, no coindoor and it is tax free again .. haha.

    Sorry, the world works not so easy ...
    Do a google search on the taxnumber for pinballmachines and parts ... you will find 95043090 (everyone who ever ordered in the USA from Europe knows this number)

    (resized).png
    #109 63 days ago
    Quoted from TomDK:

    I dont know why so many people think customs are completely idiots ?
    Haha, no coindoor and it is tax free again .. haha.
    Sorry, the world works not so easy ...
    Do a google search on the taxnumber for pinballmachines and parts ... you will find 95043090 (everyone who ever ordered in the USA from Europe knows this number) [quoted image]

    Okay .. the "pintable"-number will work !!!

    #110 63 days ago
    Quoted from TomDK:

    Okay .. the "pintable"-number will work !!!

    Kinetic sattisfaction box

    #111 63 days ago

    I guess this will boost the sale of TBL:s inside EU.

    #112 63 days ago
    Quoted from Nepi23:

    I guess this will boost the sale of TBL:s inside EU.

    Maybe ... but remember the TBL is 12000 Euro .... exact the ammount you get also the other pins for incl. all taxes
    Away from this, my last 2 NIB were TBL and Alien ... both european pins and both much much other way than the mainstream .
    Stern and JJP are all out of my collection.

    #113 63 days ago

    This is what you get with centralized government accountable to no one. All tariffs could be lifted and this tax will remain because they believe you'll pay it anyway because it's disposable income. Plebs don't need fancy pinball machines in their minds. France had a solution for this ages ago, when they had balls.

    #114 63 days ago

    I wonder if the norwegian pinball market will still be available. Granted it´s currently locked down due to covid, but atleast before that you could buy used games in norway and transport to sweden with no taxation.

    Sadly JJP doesn´t have a distro in norway, but stern does.
    Maybe it´s a viable option unpacking games there and sell as used.

    #115 63 days ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Do you honestly think half of the orders will stick at an extra 25% cost?
    I dont.

    You mean it will be much higher or much lower? For me the tax is too high and I’m the typical LE buyer. So I guess then that for premium and pro buyers it will be a big no

    -2
    #116 63 days ago

    Just get a pro instead of premium or a premium instead of an LE problem solved. J/K

    I think this is just temporary until trade disputes are reworked. I’d wait it out personally, nobody needs a new pinball machine.

    #117 63 days ago
    Quoted from Methos:

    I'm guessing that the revenue collected by the EU also goes into their general budgets to support infrastructure, health care, etc?
    Assuming this is the case, don't understand the criticism. I know it hits our pocket book - but climate change is every country's responsibility. If it pays interest on debt, it has to come from somewhere..Isn't it for the greater good?

    Oof. That's a tough answer.... Survey says: X

    I will just say, this is incredibly childish of these countries to do these tariffs, and my condolences to those affected. I get it. US started by slapping huge fees on things to other countries and they do it back. They get free money and we get screwed. Seems like a win/lose scenario.

    Also, it's not like nib pins needed another strike against them. Playfield issues are already enough to stop many people, and now this? Consider it a blessing in disguise.

    15
    #118 63 days ago
    Quoted from rai:

    Nobody needs a new pinball machine.

    You must have been talking to my wife.

    #119 63 days ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    I get it. US started by slapping huge fees on things to other countries and they do it back. They get free money and we get screwed. Seems like a win/lose scenario.

    All depends on what side of the fence you are on.

    #120 63 days ago
    Quoted from Methos:

    All depends on what side of the fence you are on.

    No ... everybody looses. If you buy any product made of steel you will also recieve higher prices but therefor there is a label "Made in the USA" in the future.
    If you love a good glass of wine ... the same. If you like wine from California. Great ! If you like french wine or Champagna ... bad , more expensive.
    The point is only we are f*#*& up with our hobby. Taxes on peanutbutter, harley davidson cycles .... no problem , I dont want them. But from time to time a NIB pinball .... yes.
    However, I have some in my collection. The last was TBL from The Netherlands, maybe next is a GnR from JJP but it will take some month until they are available, maybe the taxes are back to normal than. Will see .
    And as stated earlier .. nobody realy needs a new pin !

    #121 63 days ago

    consumers/importers always lose on tariffs. A tariff works if a foreign company is deemed to be unfairly competing against a domestic company, including by dumping goods (selling below cost) into the domestic economy to capture market share. The tariff helps level the field. However, in the case of pinball, this isn't relevant, it's just a retaliation for an earlier move on the US side. Why they chose to impose a tariff on pinball isn't quite clear, but it could be the target was something else in the category, like casino equipment. Personally, I am not optimistic this will get rolled back and extremely disappointed. I mean, have you ever seen a tax go down?

    #122 63 days ago
    Quoted from TomDK:

    No ... everybody looses.

    No they don't. Follow the $.

    #123 62 days ago
    Quoted from Faust:

    You mean it will be much higher or much lower? For me the tax is too high and I’m the typical LE buyer. So I guess then that for premium and pro buyers it will be a big no

    I think it will be much lower, would you buy a new gnr-le if the price suddenly was bumped up to ce-level, knowing it might normalize in a couple of months

    #124 62 days ago
    Quoted from Lermods:

    consumers/importers always lose on tariffs. A tariff works if a foreign company is deemed to be unfairly competing against a domestic company, including by dumping goods (selling below cost) into the domestic economy to capture market share. The tariff helps level the field. However, in the case of pinball, this isn't relevant, it's just a retaliation for an earlier move on the US side. Why they chose to impose a tariff on pinball isn't quite clear, but it could be the target was something else in the category, like casino equipment. Personally, I am not optimistic this will get rolled back and extremely disappointed. I mean, have you ever seen a tax go down?

    This is very good and understandable ... I guess (IMO) that they like to hit a complete branch in Europe which is disreputable/indescent.
    Gamehalls, vending machines .... this is for bourgeois still a business with "smell".
    The same is here with corona regulations: A hairdresser is alowed to have customers, a tattoo shop not. The hair dresser has 5 people sitting in a row waiting for the hairdresser .. the tattoo artist has 1, max. 2 customers a day and hygiene has not just been regulated since covid. There is no reason to understand all this.

    However ... we will see. I am not affected this days and it is crazy to pay 8K for a new pinball and its also crazy to pay 12K for a pinball. But at least .. it does not matter. They will be sold , here or here .. or here ...

    #125 62 days ago
    Quoted from Methos:

    Follow the $.

    Yes, it always comes from the customer. Customers lose.
    Or customers don't buy at the higher price, and manufacturers lose.

    #126 62 days ago

    I know people that have canceled there Gnr.
    And a lot of pinball parts are canceled till next year in the hope that they figured out the tax fight between the US and eu.
    We pay already 8k (6750 euro include tax) usd for a Stern pro, so a extra 25% wil hurt the pinball industry in Europe big for the next six months . So i Expect a big sales drop for Stern and Jjp.

    #127 62 days ago
    Quoted from RCA1:

    Yes, it always comes from the customer. Customers lose. Or customers don't buy at the higher price, and manufacturers lose.

    The winners here are Boeing and Airbus, who got the fat government subsidies that sparked off this little tariff battle. Random industries from cognac to pinball are paying the price.

    #128 61 days ago
    Quoted from fosaisu:

    The winners here are Boeing and Airbus, who got the fat government subsidies that sparked off this little tariff battle. Random industries from cognac to pinball are paying the price.

    No. there is no winner, only losers.

    #129 61 days ago

    I do hope that someone in norway has that good sense to start distributing jjp games in norway.

    #130 61 days ago
    Quoted from colonel_caverne:

    No. there is no winner, only losers.

    who ever receives the tax is surely the winner here?

    #131 61 days ago

    Any news how European dealers and handling this situation ?
    Saw on facebook comments that some dealers stopped all their orders, but also that a JJP dealer was asking their customers on GnR to pay extra..

    And I'm not sure about Stern, but I thought their official dealers were obliged to take a certain number of pins of each title - so they won't have a chance to cancel everything and have to buy Stern pins at the increased rate ?

    #132 61 days ago
    Quoted from russdx:

    who ever receives the tax is surely the winner here?

    No. Cause taxes is always followed by less sale, then lay-off, more social support...
    In my humble opinion, there are only losers

    #133 61 days ago
    Quoted from aeneas:

    Any news how European dealers and handling this situation ?
    Saw on facebook comments that some dealers stopped all their orders, but also that a JJP dealer was asking their customers on GnR to pay extra..
    And I'm not sure about Stern, but I thought their official dealers were obliged to take a certain number of pins of each title - so they won't have a chance to cancel everything and have to buy Stern pins at the increased rate ?

    Who could be happy to pay 2-2,5k more for a game or toy or non vital product..?
    Dealers know it, and know too that the situation could eventually change with new US administration.
    Then, time will say if this situation will last or not. If it lasts for some years, then the pinball market will be dead in EU. but right now, dealers need to cancel their orders cause unsaleable.
    Even if you buy in Norway or Switzerland, you would pay this taxe, EU customs are not dumb. Maybe bordered customers could buy nib if they manage to avoid customs officials (or  »flying customs  », does it exist in english?)

    #134 58 days ago
    Quoted from aeneas:

    Any news how European dealers and handling this situation ?
    Saw on facebook comments that some dealers stopped all their orders, but also that a JJP dealer was asking their customers on GnR to pay extra..
    And I'm not sure about Stern, but I thought their official dealers were obliged to take a certain number of pins of each title - so they won't have a chance to cancel everything and have to buy Stern pins at the increased rate ?

    Distributors here have stopped their shipments until next year, but we are in a fortunate position that this tariff might not affect us in the U.K. once the new year rolls in and we are out of the EU.

    As for the rest of EU, this can’t be good and dealers/distributors must be cancelling orders and stopping shipments, I just can’t imagine more than a very small amount of people continuing a purchase with 25% slapped onto the already high EU prices.

    #135 58 days ago

    It'll be interesting to see what it does to 2nd hand market in the EU - I guessing those prices will rise given the lack of NIB machines coming in

    #136 58 days ago

    What % stern sales are to the EU?

    #137 58 days ago
    Quoted from nicoy3k:

    What % stern sales are to the EU?

    I dont know what it was, but after the new taxation it should be really close to 0%

    #138 56 days ago
    Quoted from Manny65:

    It'll be interesting to see what it does to 2nd hand market in the EU - I guessing those prices will rise given the lack of NIB machines coming in

    Here the prices for 2nd hand are allready crazy, and will only get more crazy.
    The old EM s that went for 300/500 a few years ago are being listed for 800/1100
    Well, in this year of selff reflection, who needs a pinball machine more?
    The guy who is locked in his house with his wife, or me who's job is normal as always.

    I think the locked up guy deserves a pin!

    Stay strong and stay safe peeps!

    @J. Biden, hi Joe maybe you can become the next guy who saves pinball!

    #139 56 days ago

    If this sticks one could reasonably expect price increases in the US to compensate for the lost revenue.

    #141 53 days ago

    bad bad bad

    #142 53 days ago

    If this doesn't get sorted out in 2021, it is going to hit Stern and JJP incredibly hard, as there will be virtually zero sales to Europe.

    It will be the black swan event for pinball.

    Let's hope politicians come to their senses.

    #143 53 days ago

    My NiB is day to day for arriving.

    US dollar is 1.30
    Looks like the same thing here.
    Pinball is not dead here, not by far.
    This years pins may end up being a bit rarer in EU.
    I ordered in late June, this could be the catch up they need.

    #144 53 days ago
    Quoted from BMHouze:

    My NiB is day to day for arriving.
    US dollar is 1.30
    Looks like the same thing here.
    Pinball is not dead here, not by far.
    This years pins may end up being a bit rarer in EU.
    I ordered in late June, this could be the catch up they need.

    A bit?
    You do realise europe has 20-25% sales tax. Add another 25% eu tax.
    Basically it means a jjp le will end up about 15k usd a collector ed gnr will go well above 20k dollars.

    Honestly i'd be surprised if eu reach 10% of normal sales.

    #145 52 days ago

    Mine will be close to 13K for my 8K pin

    #146 52 days ago
    Quoted from BMHouze:

    Mine will be close to 13K for my 8K pin

    Are you talking about different currencies with different numeric values?
    In that case mine will be 150k.

    #147 52 days ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Are you talking about different currencies with different numeric values?
    In that case mine will be 150k.

    Just imagine if you were paying in yen!

    #148 52 days ago
    Quoted from zarco:

    The taxes EU countries put up with are crazy and not really sure what
    they accomplish other than hurting business.

    Try explaining the the US healthcare system to someone from a country with universal healthcare. They might not love paying taxes, but I doubt they'd swap systems with us to save on them.

    Regardless, this isn't really about taxes, this is a tariff, entirely different beast. Tariffs are punitive measures, they're not about raising money, they're about punishing markets. Governments playing bully. Feels like nobody really wins in these kinds of fights except a couple executives who line their pockets.

    Really sucks that pinball is being hurt by a short-sighted tradewar. I feel for anyone in the EU being affected, but I'd be more worried about the pinball companies. I don't know what percentage of games Stern and JJP ship to the EU, but I imagine it's substantial. We know half of the Stern LEs going overseas.

    2020, the year that keeps on giving!

    #149 52 days ago

    Pinball was making a comeback, but that is now over. So sad

    Maybe a new POTUS will be less damaging and costly?

    I received an order from Analogue.co in the US worth $499.00 and paid £202.00 taxes including the extra 25% for the new 'anti-dumping tax' (which it isn't but that's what the government is calling it), equating to 51% total markup over the purchase price. No more orders from the US for me until this blows over. This is, of course, just what our ailing economies and companies need right now. Not. Fucking politicians, eh?

    And the UK government will tow the line with the EU and apply this tariff from 01/01/21, because it wants a trade agreement with the EU. Bigger fish to fry and all that. Meanwhile, and this is all that matters IMO, pinball dies

    #150 52 days ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Regardless, this isn't really about taxes, this is a tariff, entirely different beast. Tariffs are punitive measures, they're not about raising money, they're about punishing markets. Governments playing bully. Feels like nobody really wins in these kinds of fights except a couple executives who line their pockets.

    Really sucks that pinball is being hurt by a short-sighted tradewar. I feel for anyone in the EU being affected, but I'd be more worried about the pinball companies. I don't know what percentage of games Stern and JJP ship to the EU, but I imagine it's substantial. We know half of the Stern LEs going overseas.

    2020, the year that keeps on giving!

    I think that tariffs can have there place in the commodity market but unfortunately it's being used here in the wrong market and in the wrong way. Where I think tariffs play a role is when the local government puts a tariff on incoming produce to support and protect it's local industry producing the same produce. So it stops other countries flooding your country with cheap items and forcing the local industries that make or grow those same items out of business. Over the last 40 years we've see a global economy take over, with governments negotiating free trade agreements between countries, which is fine if everyone has something to contribute and all countries play fairly ... unfortunately this is not the world we live in and we now see tariffs being applied to coerce foreign governments. Unfortunately our hobby has just become a pawn in a much bigger game and the people playing the game couldn't give a s**t about what happens to us or our hobby.

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