What game please ?
( usually not, though main fuse(s) may be different )

LTG : )

You need the fuse to have a voltage rating of 250V, and the current/amps should match what the boards were designed to be.
If you put too much current through a circuit you will see the components fail and possibly the traces bubble.
What you really need is a 120 volt step down transformer.

With more voltage, the current is lower. Smaller fuse. Most games call for an 8 amp main fuse here in the states. Some fast blow, some slow blow. With 240V, a 5 amp slow blow is usually used. Look for a label around the main fuse. If there isn't one, check the manual. If you don't have a manual, you can get one at the link below.

http://www.pbresource.com/mansch.html

Absolutely not. Stick to what's on the label.

The only fuse to change should be the main power fuse where the power cord comes into the machine. There should be a sticker indicating what size of fuse is required depending on what line voltage you have. If there is no sticker check the manual. If you don't have a manual get one In the meantime post back with what machine it is and someone should be able to help you.

Andy

Andy

Drop it from an 8 amp to a 5 amp and your good .

same fuse as is specified, that's what the transformer is jumpered for, to change the input voltage to the machine voltage (or did you think they make everything again for each country?)

What you need to do is find out if the transformer's primary is suitable for 240V. You don't need to step down to 120V if the game is designed to operate on 240V.

Unless the transformer has a seperate input tap (that you could tie one or both of your line inputs to) Do not hook a 120v transformer to 240v !!!!

Step down transformers work on ratio of windings.

So US configured transformers are wired to convert 120v to 24v and 6v by the ratio of the windings.

With that said if you hook the transformer up to 240 1 of 2 things will happen.

It either burns up which is bad or output 48v and 12v which is catatrophic.

To make it work on 24ov you need either a special transformer as I stated above which has a separate set of input windings for 240v

Or

A 2 to 1 step down transformer in front of the main transformer to change the 240v to 120.

Good luck.

This tells me that you have a transformer rated for a 240v input in it.

That's great.

Good Luck.

Bert

Note – when you have a given amount of consumption (Watts), when you increase the voltage you reduce the amps required. Watts/ Volts = Amps or Volts * Amps =Watts. The fuse is there to protect the wire, and 1mm2 (Square) wire on 230v is good for 10 amps plus.

Just for info, as no one knows this. Note the 10%, meaning if you get 253v your still in tolerance.

In 2000, Australia converted to 230 V as the nominal standard with a tolerance of +10% −6%.,[5] this superseding the old 240 V standard, AS2926-1987 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity

Machines in Australia have the correct trannies. the trannie have a different part number to US ones too.

Understood.

So if they changed the transformers to the correct ones you would hope they also changed the labels for the fuses since the current levels go down.

One of he main reasons to use a higher voltage is to get the current down thereby allowing the use of thinner gauge wire.

Which is cheaper and lighter.

It's all about the current. It's the insulation on the wire and not the wire itself that determines how much voltage it can carry. And the size of the wire determines the current it can carry.

No need to change fuse size. Fuses protect the wire. Since the wire is still the same size in area then the fuse is still fine.

I was just thinking about the input fuses.

The unit should draw half the current with twice the voltage.

On the secondary size everything should be the same.

You can change the fuse as you suggest, but there is no need to.

??? And draw to much current if something gets shorted? Use the recommended fuse for the voltage set up.

What! Think you may have missed read some of the posts.

This thread is about “should you size fuses to suit Different Voltages”, since the wire is sized for current, then the fuse should suit the wire size. And since Current is the product of Watts / Voltage where Watts and the Wire Size are constants. So do you need to change the fuse size when a machine designed for a lower voltage is used on a higher voltage? NO

Chrisbee/girlloveswaffles....You're both wrong

Okay, not wrong, but not exactly right either....

A transformer is rated by VA...That's voltamps (not wattage, but similar). For a single phase transformer, the incoming amperage is A = VA/VP (VP = primary voltage). The outgoing amperage is A = VA/VS (VS = secondary voltages).

The transformer size (VA) whether it was a transformer with dual primaries for both 120 and 240 V sources, or whether it was two different transformers provided by the manuf for country specific would have been the same. Typically probably 750VA would be my guess.

In the case of a 750VA transformer, the primary current for a 120V game would be 6.25 Amps. For a 240V game it would be half that, or 3.125A.

Now, for US built games, they'd have to follow UL/NEC codes, which allows 150% protection on primary fusing. So, for 120V game, the fuse could be from 6.25A to 9.375A. Hence, you'll see an 8 Amp fuse often. For a 240V game, the fuse would be 3.125 to 4.6875A. So, a 4 Amp fuse should be used.

Now, the 'wrong' statements:

Chrisbee: In branch circuit protection, the fuse does indeed protect the wire. In most branch circuit cases where you have inductive loads (motors), there's a secondary overload protection device and the fuses are primarily protecting the wire. But in this case, the fuse also protects the transformer (as does the secondary fuses) in addition to the wire, and UL/NEC calls for specific ratings (150%) for primary transformer protection. So, depending on voltage, the primary fuse should be sized accordingly. The current on the Secondaries is the same since the VA is constant as are the secondary voltages, so all those fuses stay the same.

girlloveswaffles: The fuse size does not protect against short circuit. Short circuit which is 0 ohms is theoretically infinite current. So it wouldn't matter whether there was a 4A or 8A fuse, either would protect a short circuit. However, the proper size fuse would properly protect against an overload situation where the current draw was marginally above the rating.

After working for the past 25 years on transformers and electric circuits I couldn't have said it better myself.

Currents and voltages on the secondary side are the same no matter the input voltage so the fuses would be the same.

But the input side current varies by the input voltage since you need the same power (and I only say power for non electrical folks) input (VA) no matter the voltage.

Bravo.

Thanks for the complement...It seems girlloveswaffles doesn't concur since he/she game me a thumbs down

You said she was wrong and she wasn't. Using too big of a fuse (factory 8 amp) on a domestic game wired for 240 volts can definitely cause problems. CB was way off base with his same size wires/same size fuses comment, but GLW was exactly right.

The original poster didn't say he had a domestic game, but I'm pretty sure that's the assumption.

Thanks for the clarification and I in no way dispute the facts you have presented, thank for the info on Trannies - A little more info would be appreciated here –What is the different between VA and Watts other than one take in account power factor? .
And I don’t think anyone is disputing the fact that a 4 amp fuse can be used on the 240v “Non Domestic” machine. But they don’t come that way, the machines from the factory (EM anyway) came with the same fuse as the “Domestic” machines. I can only assume that the wire gauge on the primary side is the same for both 120 and 240 v machine and both transformers can handle 8 amps safely.

Why would we assume that at all?
Anyway,It would not matter if he has a US or Export version, so long as the transformer is the correct transformer for the service and location. And if it was not the correct transformer on the OPers machine, I would expect the OP to read like –“Why has every lamp blown on my machine?”.
From what I have seen, in Australia most Ems have an 8 amp fuse on the primary side of the transformer.
I think if you checked in with Europe and Asia (Not that there is many machine in Asia), they will have 8 amp fuses too. Both these locations use 220 – 230 VAC

PS in Australia, we have a set of wiring rules, which I would expect to equal or be over the US standards, certainly not less than.

finally Lets read the OP.

Crickkies don't do that!!

She/He was wrong saying that an 8 amp fuse provided better short circuit protection...it doesn't. It provides better overload protection. And I didn't say she/he was wrong (note the winkie in my original post)...I said not entirely correct. In the case of a short circuit, all slow blow fuses no matter the rating are going to blow in about .01 seconds

Power factor doesn't dictate the difference...Power factor is the ratio of the two.

In the simplest terms, Watts is purely active power that's used by devices to to power them (with heat as a byproduct). Then there's reactive power which is the magnetizing current used in inductive devices like motors and transformers. The sum of the two is the apparent power or VA.

The difference between VA and Watts is determined by many factors. For a purely resistive load like a light bulb, the PF is 1. For a load that has alot of inductance like a transformer or motor, the Watts drops significantly and the PF is closer to .6. The utility companies and or facilities add capacitors to raise this PF to a nominal ratio of around .85 typically.

Anyway, that's why VA is used to size wire/fusing properly. Because unless you know the construction of your transformer, the utility companies PF at point of delivery, etc. it would be hard to determine true amps.

As for the rest of your post, you're correct...The wire between the power box and transformer would support 8amps...It would also support 20amps because it's likely at least 14awg wire. But you still size for the device in this case, not the wire. Your house breaker is actually protecting that wire to the transformer. As to whether you're correct that the transformer would handle 8A in this case, you're also probably correct. The manufacturers probably used the same transformer in most cases with multiple primary taps for the different voltages. But in working with electricity for 25 years, I tend to err on the side of caution and code, and in this case, you would down size the fuse

I was was under the impression inductive coils like Transformers run close to 1 PF. I didn't know they can be so inefficient.
Thanks again. Good to know we have people with your knowledge and experience on board.

Thanks, and no problem...And for the record I wasn't trying to discount or ridicule your's or girlslovewaffles assertions, I just like to talk about electricity since it's my background, and I get a little anal on terminology

Also, I found a one paragraph statement that way better sums up what I was trying to say above. Not mine, but a good explanation:

"Power transformers are rated in Volt-Amps (VA). Using Watts is of no use, since a load that is completely reactive dissipates no power, but there are still Volts and Amps. It is the product of "real" voltage and current that is important - a wattmeter may indicate that there is little or no real power in the load, but the transformer is still supplying a voltage and a current, and will get hot due to internal losses regardless of the power."

Alls good

Not on SS games. If you look at the manual for TAF and many other games of that era, they call for an 8 amp fast blow fuse for domestic and a 4 or 5 amp slow blow for export games. That is how they shipped. I know this because I've worked on numerous reimports that have had their transformer correctly rejumpered, but still had the original fuse. I always replace the fuse and mention it to the owner. They will often work with the smaller fuse, but I don't want to get a call back for a blown under sized fuse.

What other possible reason could he have for the question he posed?

Most all SS games can be configured for 3 different voltage ranges. Modern pinball machines all ship with the correct transformer. It just needs to be configured properly.

No. Look at the manual for TAF.

Why would you expect that? Just curious.

She/he didn't say that.

If a domestic game is jumpered for 230 volts and still has an 8 amp fuse, it's over fused. Which will cause problems (more damage) if you have a short. The advice was good.

"And draw to much current if something gets shorted?"

Sure he/she did....

It's "HE" (people need to read my name, they're adding an extra L to the name. It's GIR Loves Waffles (as in Invader Zim) not Girl loves waffles or Girl oves Waffles)

And I thumbed down because it sounded as if he were advocating it to be okay to over-fuse the line voltage.

Okay.

If you put too big of a fuse in a game and there is a short, it will draw more current than it should. That's why fuses are rated. Again, look at the manual for TAF if you're still not clear.

Sorry dude. Won't happen again. You were right.

That's okay, lots of people have done it

Wrong...Go back and read what I wrote...

A short draws infinite current...The time/temperature curve for slow blow fuses NO MATTER THEIR RATING is the same at that point...They will all blow at about .01 seconds. An 8 amp fuse will not protect a 6 amp OVERLOAD, whereas a 4 amp will, but, an 8 amp fuse and a 4 amp fuse will act EXACTLY the same in a short.

I was teasing gir about the use of the word 'short' and it's incorrect application. A short wasn't the correct characterization in his argument with Chrisbee...It would be an OVERLOAD. They are entirely two different things in the realm of electricity. That's why I clarified, that he wasn't wrong, but not entirely correct either. I think if you go back and read my posts, you'll see the distinction and the correctness of my argument. I'm NOT arguing that the fuse shouldn't be smaller.

Sorry DUDE

Both WMS in the past and Stern now specify and ship(ped) games with different sized fuses for either domestic or export games. Why?

Wow...Have you even read my posts?

Go back and read the first one.

They ship them because NEC/UL requires the correct primary fuse protection for a transformer. 8A in the case of 120V, 4A in the case of 240V, because the size of the fuse is protecting the transformer against OVERLOAD, NOT SHORT CIRCUIT....How many ways can I explain this to you? I'm NOT ARGUING AGAINST THE SMALLER FUSE. I'm clarifying that the fuse size makes a difference for OVERLOADs only, NOT SHORT CIRCUITS. In the case of a SHORT, whether there is a 4A, 8A or 100A fuse in there, they'll all blow in 100 milliseconds. So, you see, fuse size matters NOT in the case of short. In the case of OVERLOAD, of course it matters, and that's why they should be sized properly, which I've also said all along.

If you go back and read gir's post, he used the term 'short'. I was poking fun at that misuse of the word. 'overload' would have been more correct. In my same post you'll see where I agreed with gir and corrected Chisbee that a smaller fuse would be appropriate. The same thing you've been arguing, but you seem to not want to listen to me and understand WHY you use a smaller fuse. That's all I was trying to educate on, but I guess the message isn't getting through.

I better stop now...I'm about to have an aneurysm

You're splitting hairs. The general advice was good and you said it was wrong.

Sometimes when you (or anyone else) try to educate, it needlessly complicates the situation. Which can lead to later confusion when people search for posts about their problems. If you know the advice is generally good, don't nitpick it with details. It doesn't help. This is noob central. Appreciate the knowledge, but pick your spots.

The message I'm trying to get across in this thread is to check your manual, which is what I said in my first reply. Would you not agree with that advice?

No, I said it wasn't entirely correct and explained why...that's not splitting hairs.

Since when is education and knowing more about a subject complicating matters? It doesn't have to be noob central, when there are opportunities to expand a person's understanding beyond "check the manual".

Of course I agree with checking the manual, as the engineering has been done for you. But there's nothing wrong with knowing why it's like that. Would you agree that when installing a coil, it's good to know why the diode goes a certain way? Or is it sufficient to just follow a picture? I opt for the former because I like to know why I'm doing things. It's fine to not want to know, but I see no harm in explaining things.

And you're deflecting without acknowledging that my posts were correct and spot on

I'm out of this one, as I think anyone reading who wants to know about fusing a transformer has sufficient material to read, and no need in polluting this thread anymore. My apologies to the OP for going this far

If you don’t understand, it would be easy to assume double the volts double the fuse.

It may surprise you, but we are talking about an EM game here.

What do you mean? "Why would you expect that? Just curious". What else would it be?

Anyway, i think we all learned more about transformers and how we rate fuse in relation too. I like to know this stuff. Maybe you should just concede that “RobetMee” just may know what he is talking about here.
And rest easy that “Odessa” has not put oversize fuses in his machine as a result of this thread. However he most likely thinks we are all going on a bit about it.

Agreed and Me too! Sorry if I have upset anyone.

Chrisbee Out

Yes there is, "Odessa", and you are welcome to it.

I've worked in the power industry with a bunch of anal power engineers for 25+ years and I don't think I have had this many conversations about transformers.

And it's what I do.

Everything Robertmee has said is correct and his transformer clinic is spot on.

Probably the most important thing stated is while any fuse will protect you from a short transformer and every other piece of electronic or electric equipment needs to be fused correctly for over current protection.

If a transformer pulls 50% more current than it should for any length of time it can severely overheat and be ruined not to mention the possibility of much worse things happening.

And you haven't lives until you see a 4000kVA transformer blow. It's inspiring. And that's not even one of the big ones.

Just one I was lucky ( or unlucky depending on how you think about it) to benear when it let go.