(Topic ID: 266948)

2020 Recap - Greatest Pinball Game of All-Time - Tournament Edition


By AFM95

9 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 68 posts
  • 21 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 months ago by LukyDuck
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “Should we do this next year?”

    • Yes 82 votes
      90%
    • No 9 votes
      10%

    (91 votes)

    Topic Gallery

    There have been 16 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    Capture Rankings (resized).JPG
    Re-Rankings by Voting.JPG
    Pinball Records vs. Manufacturer.JPG
    Record by Era.JPG
    NonCannibalism Record by Manufacturer.JPG
    Record by Company.JPG
    Vote Stats.JPG
    Sweet Sixteen Bracket.JPG
    BracketBottom.JPG
    BracketTop.JPG
    Round 6 Results.JPG
    Round 5 Results.JPG
    Round 4 Results.JPG
    Round 3 Results.JPG
    Round 2 Results.JPG
    Round 1 Results.JPG

    There are 68 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    11
    #1 9 months ago

    Hi Everyone,

    First off, I want to thank every single Pinsider who voted. If it wasn't for you guys, this would have flopped.

    Now for the million dollar question, should we do this next year? Feel free to vote in the poll or leave a comment below. I'm also open to feedback. No promises, as I'd like to avoid reinventing the wheel, but there could be some ideas where we can tweak the formula.

    With that aside, congrats to all Attack from Mars owners. You own the great pin of all-time... well, according to Pinside. Oh, and we all know Pinside is always right. Kidding aside, I think we can come to the conclusion from the voting that there are a lot of great pins out there that have great flow, fun themes, awesome bash toys, easy rules for newbs - there is really something for everyone.

    Again, thank you to all who participated and I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. Stay safe everyone.

    #2 9 months ago

    Final Bracket, including Final 16 bracket for better visibility.

    BracketTop.JPGBracketBottom.JPGSweet Sixteen Bracket.JPG
    #3 9 months ago

    Results for Rounds 1-6:

    Round 1 Results.JPGRound 2 Results.JPGRound 3 Results.JPGRound 4 Results.JPGRound 5 Results.JPGRound 6 Results.JPG
    #4 9 months ago

    Statistics
    ________________________________

    1. A total of 21,424 votes were recorded, with a peak of 637 Pinsiders voting in Round 5. (See attachment #1 below)

    2. 52nd ranked Fish Tales provided the biggest upset of the tournament, edging out 13th ranked Elvira's House of Horrors - 54% to 46%.

    3. Largest margin of victory was by 2nd ranked Medieval Madness over 63rd ranked Indianapolis 500 in the 1st Round by a whopping margin - 90% to 10%.

    4. Bally takes home the title of "Best Record by Pinball Company," winning 57.1% of their matches. JJP takes 2nd winning 54.4% of hteir matches, followed by Williams in 3rd at 54.2%, and Stern in 4th place winning 53.1%. (See attachment #2)

    5. Continuing with "Best Record by Pinball Company," if we throw out matches where pinball manufacturers face themselves (eliminate cannibalism), the ranking order does not change, only their winning percentage. A total of 14 matches were thrown out in this scenario. (See attachment #3)

    6. From a winning percentage (and let's be honest, Lord of the Rings carried this category), "Record by Era" title goes to 2000-2009, winning 63.6% of their matchups. 1990-1999 took 2nd winning 50.8% of their matches, and 2010-2019 took 3rd at 47.3%. (See attachment #4)

    7. We had four main pinball companies that took up most of the Top 64. How did they fare against each other? By best overall winning percentage, Williams was the best at 54.2%, Bally in second at 50.0%, Stern in third at 46.2%, and JJP in fourth at 44.4%. You can see how each manufacturer did against each other by looking below. (See attachment #5)

    8. Last but not least, new rankings. How this was determined was from three variables. First, #1-#4 was done by your voting. Next, I went backwards through each round, starting with the Round 4, then Round 3, and so on. In these rounds, I ranked them based on who had the highest percent of vote in their losing matchup. For example, in Round 3, Iron Maiden is at the top of Tier 3 because it had 48% of its vote in its losing matchup. Next was Metallica because it had 45% of the vote in their losing matching. Following Metallica, it was Star Trek (Williams) who had 42%, Deadpool 35%, and so on. Then I took the same logic, starting at #33-#64 by using the consolation bracket. It wasn't a perfect science using the highest percentage of votes in a losing matchup; however, the strong games typically hold up better in any matchup, even if it loses. You can see the results below using my formula. (See attachment #6)

    Vote Stats.JPG
    Record by Company.JPGNonCannibalism Record by Manufacturer.JPGRecord by Era.JPG
    Pinball Records vs. Manufacturer.JPG
    Re-Rankings by Voting.JPG

    #5 9 months ago

    Index - All Links
    _____________

    "Greatest Pinball Game of All-Time - Tournament Edition - 2020"

    Round 1 - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/greatest-pinball-game-of-all-time-tournament-edition

    Round 2 - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/round-2-greatest-pinball-game-of-all-time-tournament-edition

    Round 3 - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/round-3-greatest-pinball-game-of-all-time-tournament-edition

    Round 4 - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/round-4-greatest-pinball-game-of-all-time-tournament-edition

    Round 5 - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/final-four-greatest-pinball-game-of-all-time-tournament-edition

    Round 6 - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-finals-greatest-pinball-game-of-all-time-tournament-edition

    3rd Place Voting - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/3rd-place-voting-greatest-pinball-game-of-all-time-te
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________

    "Consolation Bracket - Greatest Pinball Game of All-Time - Tournament Edition - 2020"

    Round 1 - Non-existent - Round 1 above had to be completed to determine the consolation bracket.

    Round 2 - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/consolation-bracket-greatest-pinball-game-of-all-time-te

    Round 3 - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/consolation-bracket-round-3-greatest-pinball-game-of-all-time-te

    Round 4 - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/consolation-bracket-round-4-greatest-pinball-game-of-all-time-te

    Round 5 - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/consolation-bracket-final-4-greatest-pinball-game-of-all-time-te

    Round 6 - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/consolation-bracket-final-greatest-pinball-game-of-all-time-te

    #6 9 months ago

    You did it the right way of keeping it on site, at times before it was linked to a bracket manager or something somewhere else and many are lost to history.
    Also, all games should be eligible again next year.
    EM bracket as well.
    Thread title with the year
    Not a fan of the consolation Brackets personally, it's a bit much.
    Great job

    #7 9 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    You did it the right way of keeping it on site, at times before it was linked to a bracket manager or something somewhere else and many are lost to history.
    Also, all games should be eligible again next year.
    EM bracket as well.
    Thread title with the year
    Not a fan of the consolation Brackets personally, it's a bit much.
    Great job

    Thank you for the feedback thelaw . I have also updated all topic threads as you requested with "2020" in them for easy reference (although the Index Links above should suffice).

    #8 9 months ago

    The top 4 -- AFM, LotR, MM, JP.....in any order, I could see those being the top GoaTs, no question....all have a cool theme, fantastic layout and stellar rules.

    Great tourney! Thanks for that, it was a fun time...

    #9 9 months ago

    I would really like to see Pinside add an Elo Rating system to go along with the Top 100 list.

    It would not take much effort to implement an Elo voting page. A year worth of that data would make for much improved seeding to start another fan vote in 2021.

    #10 9 months ago
    Quoted from Reaper802:

    I would really like to see Pinside add an Elo Rating system to go along with the Top 100 list.

    No way...someone could screw with the ratings and ruin the sanctity of the Top 100 list!!!

    #11 9 months ago

    Wrapping a few more stats guys, then the recap will be completely. I appreciate your patience.

    #12 9 months ago

    All right - this thread recap is officially complete.

    Again, I appreciate everyone's support and kind words.

    Please take a minute to review the final bracket, results, and stats.

    From the looks of it, most people would like to see this done again. My thoughts would be sometime in February, since it's cold, not much is going on, and people are still typically hanging out at home.

    Until then, take care everyone!

    #13 9 months ago

    Thanks a whole lot to AFM95 for all the fine work you have put into this.

    #14 9 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Thanks a whole lot to AFM95 for all the fine work you have put into this.

    Thanks Dr-pin!

    I'm wondering who the two people who voted "no, we shouldn't do this again next year." If I had to guess, o-din must be one of them.

    #15 9 months ago

    I still think that the bracket mechanism is flawed because the seeding so drastically affects the outcome. A machine that happened to get seeded against AFM or LOTR early on gets kicked out much earlier than it might have otherwise.

    I was thinking it would be interesting to have people list their top 20 machines (in order) and then get a ranking/result from compiling that. I realize that there probably isn't an automated way of collecting that data - it would have to be compiled manually (instead of using the "poll" function).

    The real problem with the Top 100 list is that people don't rate stuff relatively (or consistently). They get a new machine and rate it a "10", even though they don't think it's as good as some other machine they have (which they probably gave a "10" to also).

    #16 9 months ago
    Quoted from mbeardsley:

    I still think that the bracket mechanism is flawed because the seeding so drastically affects the outcome. A machine that happened to get seeded against AFM or LOTR early on gets kicked out much earlier than it might have otherwise.
    I was thinking it would be interesting to have people list their top 20 machines (in order) and then get a ranking/result from compiling that. I realize that there probably isn't an automated way of collecting that data - it would have to be compiled manually (instead of using the "poll" function).
    The real problem with the Top 100 list is that people don't rate stuff relatively (or consistently). They get a new machine and rate it a "10", even though they don't think it's as good as some other machine they have (which they probably gave a "10" to also).

    This is the problem an Elo Rating System solves. Every game gets tested vs every other game over time. It eliminates bias and attempts to tank certain games.

    #17 9 months ago

    I think following the sports tourney seeding is flawed - putting #1 against #64 is designed to reward 1 with an automatic win and trip to round two . It makes much of the tournament a foregone conclusion . I would rather see a random seeding . The best games will still make it to the end ( mostly except when they meet early ) but the rest of the match-ups become more interesting and give us something to discuss . It was good fun tho and would like to see it continue . Thanks !

    #18 9 months ago
    Quoted from Reaper802:

    This is the problem an Elo Rating System solves. Every game gets tested vs every other game over time. It eliminates bias and attempts to tank certain games.

    Yes, but it takes a very long time before you have enough samples of every machine vs. every other machine to get useful results. And for every "useful" test (like AFM vs MM), there would be a hundred useless tests (like AFM vs. Bugs Bunny Birthday).

    #19 9 months ago
    Quoted from mbeardsley:

    Yes, but it takes a very long time before you have enough samples of every machine vs. every other machine to get useful results. And for every "useful" test (like AFM vs MM), there would be a hundred useless tests (like AFM vs. Bugs Bunny Birthday).

    That's why I would suggest starting with say the top 50 right now. Even then it doesn't take long to look at two games and click on the one you think is better. How many members does Pinside have? I think the data would add up very quickly.

    #20 9 months ago
    Quoted from NevadaNutJob:

    I think following the sports tourney seeding is flawed - putting #1 against #64 is designed to reward 1 with an automatic win and trip to round two . It makes much of the tournament a foregone conclusion . I would rather see a random seeding . The best games will still make it to the end ( mostly except when they meet early ) but the rest of the match-ups become more interesting and give us something to discuss . It was good fun tho and would like to see it continue . Thanks !

    You make a good point. It rewards good teams (in our instance - rewards top rated pins) an easy path to victory. Although we had some random upsets, there weren't many.

    I like your idea. Playing devil's advocate though, I think randomizing matchups, although exciting, completely changes the dynamic of the tournament. What if the "randomizer" matched up MM versus AFM in the first round? I'm assuming a good chunk of Pinsiders would dislike that. Also, by not having heavyweights in the later rounds because of a poor draw, typically your audience will lose general interest later in the tournament. From the number of Pinsiders who voted per round, more and more joined the vote as the top pins started facing each other.

    I wonder if we could do a matchup randomizer, but allow the Top 16 pins to retain their "seed," while the other 48 get randomly assigned. That would avoid a MM versus AFM, but MM or AFM could face a tougher matchup against Star Trek, Dialed In, Spider-Man, for example in the 1st Round.

    #21 9 months ago

    Id like to know why the 4 knuckleheads voted no on the latest poll.....why? this was a fun exercise....if u don't like it than ignore the whole process

    #22 9 months ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    Id like to know why the 4 knuckleheads voted no on the latest poll.....why? this was a fun exercise....if u don't like it than ignore the whole process

    I voted no because I think it’s to arbitrary. It’s basically a popularity contest. It doesn’t really reflect how good a game really is.

    #23 9 months ago

    And to add, with the exception of LOTR, all the games that are at the top are technically in production with the remakes and new sterns.

    #24 9 months ago
    Quoted from titanpenguin:

    I voted no because I think it’s to arbitrary. It’s basically a popularity contest. It doesn’t really reflect how good a game really is.

    but who cares? If u don't like it than don't participate...the remakes weren't part of the poll (its the same game anyways), and several of those games are not in production i.e. MM, AFM, POTC, IJ, IMDN, TZ's are not in production.

    #25 9 months ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    You make a good point. It rewards good teams (in our instance - rewards top rated pins) an easy path to victory. Although we had some random upsets, there weren't many.
    I like your idea. Playing devil's advocate though, I think randomizing matchups, although exciting, completely changes the dynamic of the tournament. What if the "randomizer" matched up MM versus AFM in the first round? I'm assuming a good chunk of Pinsiders would dislike that. Also, by not having heavyweights in the later rounds because of a poor draw, typically your audience will lose general interest later in the tournament. From the number of Pinsiders who voted per round, more and more joined the vote as the top pins started facing each other.
    I wonder if we could do a matchup randomizer, but allow the Top 16 pins to retain their "seed," while the other 48 get randomly assigned. That would avoid a MM versus AFM, but MM or AFM could face a tougher matchup against Star Trek, Dialed In, Spider-Man, for example in the 1st Round.

    u can spin this a million ways, but the process u just went through was perfectly fine. It was a very fun exercise

    #26 9 months ago

    Glad I don't buy into what other people think are great and use my own judgement instead.

    #27 9 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Glad I don't buy into what other people think are great and use my own judgement instead.

    As u should....We all know theres no "greatest" game of all time. Its a personal choice as everyone has their own likes and dislikes...

    #28 9 months ago

    Thanks AFM95 for a fun tournament bracket!

    It's fun to read peoples reactions and some of them try to convince everyone it's not fair their game wasn't ranked higher!
    Will be interesting to see how the bracket changes next year!

    #29 9 months ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    As u should....We all know theres no "greatest" game of all time. Its a personal choice as everyone has their own likes and dislikes...

    Yep, I'd hate to be one of those guys that uses the pinside top 100 or any of these polls as a reference when buying games for myself.

    #30 9 months ago
    Quoted from titanpenguin:

    I voted no because I think it’s to arbitrary. It’s basically a popularity contest. It doesn’t really reflect how good a game really is.

    I'm giving you an upvote for honesty.

    #31 9 months ago

    Thanks for the effort AFM95, was a lot of fun.

    But...I would like an independent committee to investigate the results. AFM won and the tournament that was run by....AFM95.

    Coincidence? Probably

    #32 9 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Yep, I'd hate to be one of those guys that uses the pinside top 100 or any of these polls as a reference when buying games for myself.

    I think where I see the value of the Top 100, it gives newbs a chance to get familiar with the most popular games.

    But to your point, and I think I posted this in Round 1's thread, I consider NBA Fastbreak as a Top 20 game personality. Most people would laugh at that. But again, as you said (and I agree), you should be buying on personal preference and what you like to play.

    #33 9 months ago
    Quoted from ViperJelly:

    Thanks for the effort AFM95, was a lot of fun.
    But...I would like an independent committee to investigate the results. AFM won and the tournament that was run by....AFM95.
    Coincidence? Probably

    Haha! Someone did PM me about that. They said I was potentially sending subliminal messages to vote for AFM. They were saying it in jest of course.

    Do you want to be president of that committee? Or should we be formal about it and hire a law firm?

    #34 9 months ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    Or should we be formal about it and hire a law firm?

    Paging TheLaw

    #35 9 months ago
    Quoted from ectobar:

    Paging TheLaw

    I'll do it, but I'm going to have to remove JJPPOTC from the tournament so I don't have to hear all 6 owners fucking cry aboot it losing
    I'd say the same aboot Alien, but having played a lot of it, it will naturally work it's way out

    #36 9 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    I'll do it, but I'm going to have to remove JJPPOTC from the tournament so I don't have to hear all 6 owners fucking cry aboot it losing
    I'd say the same aboot Alien, but having played a lot of it, it will naturally work it's way out

    Its ok Law....we all know your upset that u don't own one.....maybe someday JJP will do another run for u

    #37 9 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Yep, I'd hate to be one of those guys that uses the pinside top 100 or any of these polls as a reference when buying games for myself.

    well your an experience pinball guy that knows what he likes....for people just getting into the hobby its a great resource....one that experienced players can take with a grain of salt....its just information

    #38 9 months ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    Its ok Law....

    There they are

    #39 9 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    There they are

    well if u owned one u might join the 6 Its a really good game if u spend any time on it

    #40 9 months ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    I think where I see the value of the Top 100, it gives newbs a chance to get familiar with the most popular games.

    It also gives people that are tired of them somebody to sell them to.

    #41 9 months ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    ... Its a really good game if u spend any time on it

    The best feature it has is a built in excuse for not winning; that's important come tournament time.

    #42 9 months ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    but who cares? If u don't like it than don't participate...the remakes weren't part of the poll (its the same game anyways), and several of those games are not in production i.e. MM, AFM, POTC, IJ, IMDN, TZ's are not in production.

    This thread is literally asking for people’s opinions. Sorry you can’t accept that someone doesn’t agree with you.

    #43 9 months ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    I'm giving you an upvote for honesty.

    I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this. It’s a fun concept. I just wish it was based on something more than what’s most popular at the moment.

    #44 9 months ago
    Quoted from titanpenguin:

    This thread is literally asking for people’s opinions. Sorry you can’t accept that someone doesn’t agree with you.

    We all know its a popularity contest + u made a comment that all the games at the top are all new games, which is completely WRONG. How long have MM, AFM, LOTR, TZ, IJ, and MB been at the top of the list?....years and years so I just don't get your point.

    #45 9 months ago
    Quoted from titanpenguin:

    I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this. It’s a fun concept. I just wish it was based on something more than what’s most popular at the moment.

    Thanks titanpenguin. I agree, it has been fun.

    To your point, maybe anything that is released in the last six months is excluded to avoid "the new hot pin" popularity.

    If you have any ideas, or out of the box suggestions, feel free to share.

    -1
    #46 9 months ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    We all know its a popularity contest + u made a comment that all the games at the top are all new games, which is completely WRONG. How long have MM, AFM, LOTR, TZ, IJ, and MB been at the top of the list?....years and years so I just don't get your point.

    MM, MB, AFM are all currently in production as remakes from CGC. The only game in the top 4 not currently in production is LOTR. That’s my point. I never said they were all NEW games. Please reread what was actually said before going on a rant. I agree they are good games, but when a lot of the top 10 are technically in production still, I feel that skews the results a bit.

    #47 9 months ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    Thanks titanpenguin. I agree, it has been fun.
    To your point, maybe anything that is released in the last six months is excluded to avoid "the new hot pin" popularity.
    If you have any ideas, or out of the box suggestions, feel free to share.

    Maybe do an asterix like in baseball noting games currently in production?

    #48 9 months ago
    Quoted from titanpenguin:

    MM, MB, AFM are all currently in production as remakes from CGC. The only game in the top 4 not currently in production is LOTR. That’s my point. I never said they were all NEW games. Please reread what was actually said before going on a rant. I agree they are good games, but when a lot of the top 10 are technically in production still, I feel that skews the results a bit.

    Except that you have it backwards...MM, MB, and AFM have been on the top of the list since before they were re-made.
    They aren't at the top of the list because they were remade, they were remade BECAUSE they were at the top of the list.

    #49 9 months ago
    Quoted from titanpenguin:

    MM, MB, AFM are all currently in production as remakes from CGC. The only game in the top 4 not currently in production is LOTR. That’s my point. I never said they were all NEW games. Please reread what was actually said before going on a rant. I agree they are good games, but when a lot of the top 10 are technically in production still, I feel that skews the results a bit.

    I do agree that its a bit of a popularity contest, but the classics are still at the top (remakes or not). The only way to really do this contest, and address your issue is to have it done by era....whats really impressive about MM, AFM, TZ, IJ, LOTR, and MB is that they have stood the test of time

    #50 9 months ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    I do agree that its a bit of a popularity contest, but the classics are still at the top (remakes or not). The only way to really do this contest, and address your issue is to have it done by era....whats really impressive about MM, AFM, TZ, IJ, LOTR, and MB is that they have stood the test of time

    I don't think we need to break the bracket down by era (if we're talking the last 30 years), because the data shows that the 90's and 10's (weird to say), were fairly equal when matching up against each other. Same goes for manufacturer - not one was significantly better than the other.

    However, I could see eliminating any new game (not remakes) from the contest that has been produced in the last six months to a year. This way, we can avoid popular games that haven't been vetted out yet. I do see some value here.

    As other Pinsiders have mentioned, the Top 10 gets littered with the "latest and greatest" pins that get released, only to see those games slink down quite a few spots after a few months of game play in the wild.

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