Pristine examples are still out there sitting in homes for many years (As well as beat up crap). I'm looking at 1976 Gottlieb Buccaneer with on 35K plays and has been in a home since 1979. It's amazing clean from the pics I've seen.

Really interesting thread. I agree with most of your reflections. The one thing that I would add is that the woodrail prices and market for this era continues to contract. This was brought up multiple times over the past year in the “woodrail pinballs” thread.

One thing I have been wondering lately is how many buyers are out there for $2-$3k machines? Nice, original examples can regularly be found for less than $1000 and some restored examples in the $1000-$2000 range.

Of course, there are always exceptions and I am not really making a judgement on the value of a fully restored example but I do wonder how hot that market remains compared to the others where there seems to be a lot of activity.

There seem to be more being listed in such a high price range lately. I hope this doesn’t become the new standard for EMs.

Thank you, OP, for starting a thread about this, all the discussion lately seems to be about the next release by Stern, JJP, American, Spooky, etc. I hope there’s still a lot of room for EM discussion.

My most recent acquisition is a Rawhide, which is really a Chicago Coin, even though Stern Electronics ended up producing them. It’s actually a fun pin and has led me to wonder if the Chicago Coin market will trend up a little like Bally has due to rarity and collectors rediscovering them. They can still be gotten inexpensively.

As much as I like the odd CC title I'd be hard pressed imaging people going out of their way to collect them. Parts availability and gameplay hurt making CC collectable. I own a CC Moon Shot which is a riot to play but it is the exception.

They hit a few good shots but the majority of their efforts were rather lackluster.

In the North East as far as EM's go, $250-$400 seems to be the floor on EM projects and selling working, serviced pins $500-$1000 with exceptions.

Very few pins seem to sell over that mark in my experience unless it is a title like Fireball. I sold a nice Williams Darts a year ago for $1050 delivered to the guys house 15 minutes away. Fully working Space Odyssey to a friend for $500. Gottlieb King Pin just sold for $600 a few months ago.

I've found that almost all of their titles from the pre-70s eras are a lot of fun. At one point, almost all of my flipper games were pre-70s Chicago Coin.

Some examples off the top of my head:

Twinky
Thing
Hula
Pirate Gold

But I have yet to play a real stinker from those pre-70s days. Haven't played 'em all, of course.

In the 60s, they were almost Williams internals, with the exception of their trip banks. In the 50s, their relay actuators were a bit different than everyone else's, and they still had the 'slide' trip banks, but otherwise on par or nicer, in some respects.

A valid point that I have not considered, Moon Shot is a '69. I had a Hi-Flyer that was a '74 and it got boring fairly quick which was a pity as it had great artwork and chimebox was on par with Bally or Gottlieb. Shoot the to the top, drop through the roll overs, rinse and repeat.

Spinner in center that went.. no where. Aimed right at a pop bumper. 2 drop targets you could only hit at random.

I have noticed ZERO changes in the EM market in about 10 years.

There are still plenty of cheap ones available. Prices haven't gone up or down much at all. I guess woodrails are still kind of weak but it's been that way for about 10 years.

The only difference is the lack of quality cheap projects at shows like Allentown, but it's been that way for a while too.

I have a ‘66 Hula Hula that is one of the most unique and fun pins in my collection. The flash scoring feature is very cool and was done years before Skyrocket.

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I saw a veteran of coin-op reflect how a lot of coin-op stuff outside of pinball is on the decline.
Woodrails have been diminishing over the last few years it seems.

My local impression is that all EMs are waning. Where people would snap up fun $700 EMs for the garage they are lingering longer and longer. I don't expect to see EMs rise again, outside of the most collectible (rarest, and top restorations)

A generation of people grew up next to woodrail pinballs and might have wanted them with that sense of nostalgia. That generation is mostly retired, downsizing, moving in to care homes, etc.
There are many of us that love the woodrails, but not enough to sustain the market at past (modest) numbers.

1970s EMs will have that same reckoning. 70s EMs are now all 40-50 years old, so the people that remember them from their teenage years are 55-65 years old, so that nostalgia period will be sunsetting as well.

There's not really anyone that remembers the 1930s from their youth, so the market for THOSE machines is just pure collectors, the nostalgia wave of that period long resigned to history.

I often think of the plummet of Elvis records https://www.theguardian.com/music/shortcuts/2017/may/07/elvis-presley-memorabilia-plummeting-in-price
I imagine The Beatles market is beginning the same decline.
Heck we're already past the peak of the Nintendo Entertainment System collecting, as 80s kids who wanted every cart grew up, got money,and went out and GOT every cart, but now some of them are beginning to downsize.

I wonder if in 2050 the kids of today will have any nostalgia for the modern ticket redemption arcades?

I know I'm an exception perhaps, but never really played EM or even SS back in the day. EM's are a lot of fun and charming and I enjoy restoring them.

Again, just an exception. There are newer pin owners who are looking at EM ownership but can't give you a percentage of who is coming on board vs those downsizing.

I think with the advent of a new EM title the world will be a better place, and SS games will diminish.

Stay tuned.

I think with the growth of competitive pinball, more players/clubs/leagues are starting to be drawn to EMs (quick game times, cheap games, low risk investment, easy to move). Super fun for playing with friends, dollar games & tourneys. 3-inch flipper games are easier to get into for a noob than 2-inch games.

So while older players who remember these games are certainly aging out of the hobby, the younger players' lack of nostalgia for the (better playing) games or for this time period is not necessarily dooming EMs.

Two factors at play. As the cost of new digitals continues higher and higher, EM's remain a more affordable but still fun choice for collectors. But as the population of pinball players that played EM's in the wild ages, demand goes down. Someone smarter than me can graph those two trends out to see where they intersect, and perhaps predict where prices are going!!

I was shocked at York this year that the 2001 wasn't sold as of 5 pm saturday.... the price had been dropped to $600. If I'd had room to bring it home I would have, but there were 2 extra people with me and not sure how they and the other machine I bought would have fit. Sure it needed a cab repaint and a go-through, but what EM doesn't?

I'm with CrazyLevi , the em market is flat or in slight decline, depending on the title. In fact the whole "D-market" is flat, but the B-C market is exploding since that's what people can afford, especially if they want more than one. The NIB/A title market is pretty healthy, but those remakes really killed the couple top machines there (bet some of those speculators are kicking themselves for not getting out earlier).

It's not worth it to most people that are sitting on decent projects to sell them off, realistically there's machines that people will sit on for decades and sell for the same amount they paid, in the same project level condition.

The market for high-end EM restoration is exceedingly small, probably 5% of the market for high-end DMD/solid state titles.... maybe not even that much.

Region I think is a big factor. But generally agree with the statement above. I hear how interest in EMs has declined but I can't buy them like I used to. What used to be a $50-$300 project in my area has generally turned into a $400-$600 project.

When I started you could buy 70s multi-players cheap as interest was low. At the time Clay was promoting single players as the best choice for deeper rule sets. Now it seems a collector that has a modern collection may pick up an EM as a cheap alternative but would prefer a later model multi-player. I'd bet most of the heavy hitter Wedge head and woodrail collectors are full up now. Interest seems to have declined but asking prices haven't. Many more of those games available just not affordably.

As mentioned I think Bally has become the new hot EM manufacturer to pursue. I remember when Bally Brian Saunders was the odd man out. He apparently had it figured out all along.

As much as I'd like one of the other Wedge Heads set up, after recently going through a C.C. "Hollywood" to place in a
Friend's restaurant, I went through another to place next to the "Sound Stage". Hollywood's just a nice simple two player
to compete on..

Already have Gottlieb's "Paradise and Pleasure Isle", I'm now thinking I'll be having an eye out for "Hula Hula"..

I’m perplexed by the high prices being asked for a great deal of all these machines. I understand folks don’t understand the time and expense involved just to get it up and running and just want something for the ‘ole family relic. Some of the high demanding prices from these family basement relics is everyone researches online now -but no one reads the details. What they see is the high price tags and can’t help but think they got gold…

On the flip side the well shopped and fully restored pins are true works of art, I celebrate your passion truly, however in my opinion, with passion comes some overspending on the actual value of these machines as well. No different than the car lover or anything really. The market will correct itself and prices will come down to something realistic, I enjoy watching the price set high, no bites then it’s lowered and lowered till it sells.

I normally don’t win because my budgets is set low and I’m not willing to overspend when I can see the parts needed (not the work). Personally I’m a hobbyist, I like some age and wear on a family loved pin. I don’t need perfect but I like the challenge to refurbish. The hacks are a work of art in its own right, people trying to fix something they don’t understand…of courses it’s got to go and it does help to point out the true value and expense of what they have.
Easier said than done but I caution the temptation to over pay.

While true, some games are just damn fun, Night Rider is a classic.

Theme, sound and gameplay are just so fun.

I want to point out that I started playing pinball on Solid State game like Black Hole and Black knight. My love for EMs is not based on what I saw and played when I was younger. Games like Dodge City, Ship Mates, 2001, Volley and Teacher's Pet are keepers to me because they are great games and great fun, not because of some nostalgia.

One thing that I have observed on EM prices is that a great game can go for cheap or take a long while to sell for seemingly no reason. There are so many titles, it really helps to get lucky and find someone looking for the exact title you are selling.

The market in Michigan is "hot" for EM's. Anything listed under $500 is typically gobbled up within a few hours of posting. Over the weekend a Williams Olympic Hockey that wouldn't turn on and had no score motor (just the motor missing, cam wheels all pulled out but in the cabinet) sold for $400

The tournament pinball aspect plays a role. Single player games just aren't that great in tournaments. Lacks the drama of competing ball-to-ball

I don't disagree. Just mentioning a time when Clay had a great influence over the hobby. Being a huge fan of single player Gottliebs that's what was hot at the time. Not saying they aren't fine games but it took me awhile navigating through the RGP era to discover what I really liked.

And regarding 70s Chicago Coin games. I had Top Ten and Stampede. Both had a lot of neat features and were fun to shoot. The downside was they were so damn easy. You'd get done with a ball and have to wait for the huge bonus count down to slowly chunk away. It got kind of mind numbing after a short while. I feel like with more challenging rules they could have had something.

Well said. I agree 100%.

As far as EM prices jumping up in recent years I believe it's just a symptom of overall pinflation. I used to buy 90's Williams and Bally games for $1K each in the '00s, now they go for 6 or 7 times that amount all day long. Sooner or later these increases were going to start affecting the percieved value of the more popular EMs.

I too had no particular nostalgic fondness for EMs, I was introduced to pinball on early SS machines (BK, Gorgar, etc.). But over time I've been exposed to many at shows and tournaments and have grown very fond of their charms. At this point I think I could be happy if all I could afford were broken down EMs to fix up and play if it came to that.

I've had a bunch, but after thinning the herd to most only the great playing Williams games from the 50s and 60s, none that I remember playing as a child, 2019 has been the year of settling for no less than the one that long eluded me.

Now that I have my Beat The Clock, I am content to finish restoring it and play the others I have. I've had enough to know there are no others to replace them, or others I would rather play.

Happy junk hunting folks!

If it’s the one I saw on CL, it also had a cracked backglass!

You would think at some point the bulk of the pins would be "fished out" and the supply would start to slow down. I see fewer 60's pins in the wild now than I did 3 years ago. Popular 70's pins seem to still be relativity plentiful around here depending on title.

Night Rider is a hard EM to find, very few have come up for sale around here.

I'm thinking a major reason of a current or coming decline in the EM market is the less people being able to or willing to learn how to service them.

I think it is almost a must have talent if you want to own one. My history in the auto repair business doing all the electrical work most others did not want to or could not do, made this a relatively simple learning process along with all other eras of solid state.

For someone without any electrical experience, I imagine looking at all those wires, switches, and relays would be baffling.

Woodrail prices were static in the eighties up until the European market (largely collectors in Italy and France) began buying up everything and anything, especially fifties vintage Gottliebs.

Even "C titles" were fetching high price tags back then. I remember when the market normalized. Only the "A titles" survived (e.g. Gottlieb Daisy May, Knock Out, Mystic Marvel, Bank-A-Ball, Grand Slam, Spot Bowler, Minstrel Man, Williams Skyway).

Up until 2017, the "A titles have held their values. Within the last two years, several "A titles" have fallen out of favor (especially Minstrel Man and Sittin Pretty).

Other titles, like Niagara, Queen of Hearts, Harbor Lites, and CCM's Thing have grown in value in the last few years.

Knock Out has recently lost about 35% in value. Several double-award Gottliebs have dipped significantly in value. Glamor and Mermaid are so scarce and expensive that only a handful of collectors determine the price point of those titles.

Compared to solid state and DMD era games, really good woodrails and other EM projects (and even restored examples) have been relatively inexpensive for several decades. There's good value in them, even if a collector has been paying top dollar to acquire the best examples.

The best titles in the best condition are finite. There will be no Queen of Hearts Remake edition. . .ever. I suspect that Knock Out will regain some value in the coming years, even though the gameplay is more of a novelty.

From a financial standpoint, I would much rather have a line-up up A-title Gottlieb wedgeheads, Bally zipper flipper titles and nice Williams reverse wedgeheads than a row of modern games.

I'm confident that Bally Skyrocket, for example, is a better investment than any modern game at their respective current market prices.

As for prewar games, none of us collectors played them as children. Nonetheless, the "A titles" like Rockola's trifecta are more popular than ever and continue to escalate in value.

As long as the person has a head that can actually wrap. I'm seeing less and less of that these days.

@AlexF. Top secret info here.... Bally Brian is cornering the Chicago Coin market.
Buy! Buy! buy!

I was born in the 80s and enjoy playing/collecting/fixing EMs more than the newer titles. I am always on the lookout for nice originals. I enjoy the ball times and my wife likes them more.

I had an IFPA EM only tournament last month. Many people said it was their favorite event this year. I turned off all the newer pins and all you heard was laughter, cussing, and ding-ding-ding. It was glorious!

Since then I have sold 3 EMs to players who wouldn’t care for one previously. As long as they don’t play/look like shit people love them

I’m starting to find some titles coming on the market that used to be rare to see. In the past two years, I’ve picked up two Cowpoke’s, a Flipper Cowboy, and a Kings & Queens. All in pretty decent unrestored condition. I think this trend will continue as people sell off grandpa’s relics. I also think this’ll lower the top end prices of these games. In general, I’m seeing higher buy prices for projects, and lower sell prices for nicely restored games. I shop out EM’s as a hobby, so not looking to get rich on them, but as parts keep going up, the margins are getting thinner.

Mopar, Hula Hula is great, the rarer add a ball version is even cooler.

I started playing in the early 70s, but I would not say the my nostalgia feelings around pinball often ties to specific titles (well, except Fireball, since that was really the first game I had serious playing time on, since a friend whose Dad sold pinball retail had one in his basement). But my love of pinball runs through all eras.

When I bought my first EM and had to learn how it worked to get it back up and running, I was blown away by what these engineers were able to do with relays and score motors with switch stacks. In a sense, the first programmers in pinball. But as everyone here knows, working on them is a very different beast than a solid state game and I can see how that can scare some folks. As we also know, once you get an EM up and running well, as long as you play it, it can be more reliable that newer games.

When I started collecting it was always my goal to try to have games representing the different eras and I encourage other collectors to do the same (I still need to get a wood rail one of these days). Your appreciation for every era of game is greater when you have had a chance to experience the previous ones that got us there. Unfortunately, space is often the bigger issue for collectors vs money and often guys can't look past giving up some DMD to try something new -- their loss.

While TNA has introduced a new generation to 80s style machines, and thus a jump in prices for those machines, I'm not sure we will ever see the same for the EMs. But hopefully it has still opened the eyes of many that there is some great pinball that pre-dates DMD. Meanwhile, I will continue to take advantage of the usually available EMs at shows, given that so many just don't see the beauty on that style of play.

I feel that the early-mid 60s Williams EMs are still under valued and under appreciated.

Not in my garage.

I'm a fan but they don't turn up near me for a couple hundred anymore.

That too.

Especially during this time of year, there’s nothing like a dark game room with only the glow of EM’s and Christmas music playing in the background. Am I right?,or am I right.

I’ve got a nice volley and a nice Grand Prix. Grand Prix was going for like $400 a couple of years ago, dont think you can find nice ones below $700-800 now. Volley I’m less sure about, I think they were around $800 several years ago, maybe $1000-1200 now? I had an Atlantis, they’ve risen a lot, many going for over $2k. Centigrade has increased a lot too.

I've had a C.C. Bronco true AAB, and after learning they made a strictly Replay Version,
I checked and the other is AAB also. Here in N.Y., I guess that would increase the chances
of it being..
I knew C.C. made a handful of AAB titles earlier in the 60s, but hadn't known after 1963.
Already having the true 2 Player Gottlieb AABs, I'll now be looking for the AAB Hula Hula..

I marked my 15th year in the hobby this past year and my observations are:

50's GTB's - when I 1st started collecting any woodrail was $1000 or more with your sought after titles more of course. Now, these same woodrails are going for $700 and up. I sold an original unrestored working Knock Out for $4400 in 2017. Couldn't sell a nice KO project for anymore than $2000 in 2019 and it was on the market for 6 months (the guys that bought the repro playfields all finished their games and demand dropped). I was going to restore it but used the money to buy a ball bowler instead.

60's GTB's - I remember any wedgeheads with backglass animation were selling for around $1200 ea., (nice and working) Central Park, Skyline, etc.. Now, you can get them much cheaper. Titles like Kings and Queens, Buckaroo (nice and working), etc., were selling for $2200 - they're much lower now too. I think when one person (a non-hobbyist) lists a game lower than what we think it's worth , other people that sell theirs saw that lower price (on Facebook marketplace for instance) and lists theirs lower too.

70's GTB's - At the beginning it seemed as if you had the pick of the litter in small - mid sized cities as they're were not as many hobbyists back then. Lot's of good deals in the $250 - $400 range for desirable 70's games. They're harder to find in my area now as I see less of them listed but I see lots of Bally & Williams common titles just sit there and get relisted.

So, it seems as the people that played these games get older and die off, the cheaper they become - except desirable/rare titles. Some have even mentioned that in the future people might be buying them for a piece of furniture (nostalgia) and not so much to play - yikes. The same thing is happening with lower prices on slot machines, juke boxes, etc..

JMO

EM's still rule though!