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The whole economy is out of whack. The 1% just got an enormous tax cut. The country is double/triple taxed - and the majority of the rest of the peoples total tax burden is 50% when you account for all taxes. Sure, it goes to 'good' causes, but the reality is they waste so much money due to the massive amounts of red tape and agendas. It's hard to be happy about paying more tax at this point.
Quoted from Darcy:That would be an almost impossible way to collect a tax. Selling your old mower, wife sells her home made quilts she makes as a hobby. etc. All year one would have to keep track of everything the sold.
Well it is the reality, it just doesn't happen because it is so hard to track. The same with the out of state sales. They are just now getting around to trying to force in legislature since it is 'easier' to track those type of sales than private sales.
Quoted from jgentry:Theres only a few states and income brackets that would fall into a 50%+ tax. Yes a lot is wasted, but 50% is a hugely exaggerated for most Americans. The average is closer to 15%.
15% is way way low. Middle income america is paying what 18-23% in federal income taxes alone? Add to that sales tax, and all the other 'little taxes' that get put on top of it. It is around 50% (I will concede maybe it isn't 'most') but it is more than it should be. Somewhere there was a rule about only being taxed once...that clearly isn't being adhered to.
Quoted from Methos:Check out the tax rates back in the 1970's, and interest rates. We have it good.
Taxes go to services and public aid, nothing wrong with that. If you can't afford an extra $500 for a NIB, maybe you shouldn't get one.
Ahh, the old 'if you can't afford' nonsense argument. No sir, you are wrong. People have been battling taxes for centuries. Governments are greedy. I don't care what goody good they claim to be doing with the said money. If anyone actually knew exactly how that money was used no one would be defending it. I can only speak to the military to a degree. The amount of waste and over charged for junk is crazy.
That being said, the 'extra' you refer to will vary by state obviously. What is $500 to one is $700 to another, etc.
Quoted from Fezmid:I did look it up - and provided links as evidence. PAYROLL tax is 30% for the average household. That does NOT include things like capital gains taxes, property taxes, gas tax, consumption tax, hell even your cell phone and TV bill have taxes on them.
Here it is again for those who missed it:
https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/03/04/whats-the-average-americans-tax-rate.aspx
For those who don't want to read.
So, what is the average American's overall tax rate?
If you add up the four income-based categories of taxation (Federal, state/local, Social Security, and Medicare), the average American's effective tax rate is 29.8%. This is in addition to any consumption-based taxes paid, such as sales tax, property tax, or other taxes on specific items.
(not sure how to bold, but read the 2nd line).
And yes, I was referring to 'tax burden' which is what I stated. Not just income tax and sales tax.
Well it depends on where your cutoff is. Sure some of you money baggers 
(and I don't consider myself poor by any means). If you are ONLY talking about $5k stern low end model, then okay...maybe you have a point, but let's talk 8k+ premiums/le's from all. That tax goes up with the price. That $500 is now $800+. Now it isn't a 8k (or 9k for JJP) game, it's a 9k (10k) game. Let's not get stuck on $500...because that simply isn't the whole story or even true for the majority of the US since the average sales tax is over 8%.
The point though is that yes...that simple change can and will deter some people from buying. Maybe not the majority of addicts on this site, but in general. People like to think they are getting a deal, and while yes we all know everyone was SUPPOSED to be paying this tax anyway, the majority have NOT been paying it since 1995. Of course they are going to complain. I've already slowed down my online spending because of it.
Quoted from Bublehead:My head is spinning... maybe due to this thread swirling down the toilet... not sure yet.
It's taxes, did you think it was going to be rainbows? 
Quoted from Darcy:Here in Canada have a few fancy words for what is a tax. Best one is Levy. Luxury Tax. Goods and Services Tax. School Tax. H.S.T.. Federal Excise Tax. Property Tax. Income Tax. Just to name a few, and some fees are a taxed tax.
Same in the states...my favorite is 'use tax'.
Quoted from Alan_L:What if a used machine is sold and shipped from another state to you by a brick and mortar store? Is that also taxable? Does that mean that pinball parts suppliers will also have to charge and track sales tax on their shipments? I can see Steve Young going for that!
technically any transaction is taxable. Cash in hand person to person is really the only way to 'avoid' it. Any business is 'required' to report it.
What WILL happen though is that used sale prices will go up to adjust for the tax they paid NIB so you won't be able to avoid it completely.
Quoted from iceman44:The top “1 percent ers..” pay 40% of the total federal income tax collected
The top 10% pays 71% of the total
The bottom 45% pay Zero Federal income tax
Fact: No matter how you slice it rate wise, you aren’t squeezing any more juice out of the “rich”. They will plan around it or move
Need to look at 1/2 the population that pays ZERO
When you lower taxes, oh wait, unemployment goes to record lows AND wages rise, including the minimum wage across the country and voluntarily for Amazon, Walmart, etc
You want to ration Healthcare? Move to Canada
Many of you should be applauding these sales taxes, but you only want higher taxes as long as it doesn’t apply to you!
I'm not for more taxes period. It doesn't end. The primary reason for this is unbridled greed. Capitalism fails under it. Ask someone why prices constantly go up, they'll tell you many reasons revolving around wages, taxes, inflation etc, but at the end of the day if you add it all up the majority of American workers wages are not keeping up with any of it, so where is all that extra money going? It sure as heck isn't going into the school systems. The problem is, we can't really discuss much of the inner workings of it without it getting all political, but let's not try to pretend that the 1% for the most part are not paying that much in taxes - they have all kinds of ways out of it that the middle/lower don't. Also, as for the really low income people, how much blood can you get out of a turnip? I'm not a woah is me type person, and I've done well for myself, but the key is I worked for it. I didn't lie, cheat, steal, backstab, etc like many of these companies do. Every day there is some new scandal and what happens if anything? A fine that goes to the government and lawyers, then yet higher prices for consumers.
/end rant cause it could go on and on. In the end, the point is still. No more taxes.
Quoted from Who-Dey:People dont believe this. They think those evil rich people don't pay taxes at all.
Knowing some rich people, 'not paying taxes at all' is a fallacy. Yes they pay taxes, and yes those numbers sound mind crushingly large by the normal persons standard, but at the end of the day, they are still paying quite a bit less per dollar than us minions. Even after the cost of accountants and lawyers (why do you think they pay for them?).
Anyway, this is getting too serious. Pet peeve of mine when people try to pretend that all taxes are a boone for the country, when they clearly are not. Typically when people take that stance I suggest they are free to pay double because Uncle Sam won't turn them away.
Everyone have a good weekend!
Quoted from iceman44:If I paid $500k in taxes you want more
I would fire people, instead of hiring them and paying them more IF
Taxes go up. Simple
See above, the top 1% already pays almost 50% of the individual tax base
What about that don’t you get?
I know there's lots of people talking here, but I think the point is being missed. No one ultimately cares how much you pay in taxes. They care about what THEY pay in taxes. You say the rich pay 50% in taxes....I'm not rich and I pay nearly 50% in taxes. That 50% impacts me WAY more than it hurts someone making 100's of millions more than me, even if the number of zeros is different.
The ultimate question since you seem to be so pro-more-tax is this. What number do you consider enough? Because NO one should be for more taxes unless you're a politician.
Quoted from Luckydogg420:I don’t think I get what your saying here.
I commented that the discrepancy between the elite and poor in America is greater then most of the elite recognize.
Your rebuttal is that the poor in your country are doing better then then the poor in (3rd world nations?). How is that a just comparison. People are starving, but they should just be happy to be there and not want a better life?
Saying your poor are better then other poor won’t win you any nice guy awards.
That's the problem. The really rich (and those who never had to work for it) completely lose perspective. I'm not trying to hate. I don't know any of you, and I know not all rich people are bad. but don't come at me like I'm some welfare check holder.
Quoted from PinballTilt:I just wanted to add a comment to this discussion. After reading the first page and realizing this is a state by state deal, I was curious what North Carolinas rule is. The rule for a business on whether they have to collect sales tax for North Carolina residents is if they sell $100,000 in goods or 200 items.
So couldn't each distributor let everyone know on the phone or in a newsletter how much remaining 'cap room' they have to each state? That way the distributor could tell me if they will have to collect sales tax and I could base my decision off of that. Of course, this would tie their hands and once they got their quota, they would be done selling to that state as they couldnt easily get tax from those who already bought.
If you're a distributor, would you go with my plan to help customers out by not charging tax and potentially hurting your sales by limiting how many you could sell to each state?
These are such high dollar items it would hit that 100k pretty fast.
Quoted from iceman44:You don’t pay 50% in federal income tax.
That’s ignorance
I've NEVER said that, and incidentally, neither do you, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
Quoted from iceman44:LOL
Read what you wrote.
BS
Uh you might wanna try reading comprehension or read my earlier posts. I said total tax burden. The rich do NOT pay 50% in federal income tax, so I assumed we were talking the same thing.
Anyway, you avoided my actual question to try to pick apart what I said (falsely), so clearly we should just quit responding.
Quoted from Buzz:All systems are failed.
Don't like it? Mars is that way --> ...or that way ^^...depending.
Quoted from John_I:Going back to the real topic of this thread, this law will not change whether or not I buy an NIB machine in 2019. Whats an extra 6% when I'm spending $7500 already? Screw it. Hasn't stopped people from buying cars all these years. It might change who I buy NIB machines from though. If I have to pay state taxes anyway, I might as well buy the game from a local seller in Florida and give them the business.
It's $450+300 shipping. That's how much. Just saying. It's not a small amount. Buying locally of course solves the shipping part. We can't use the car analogy because ...well that was set by everyone else. Ultimately, what this means is the hobby just got more expensive.
Quoted from Luckydogg420:To throw salt on wound, here in Ontario there’s not only the 13% sales tax we pay on NIB games, but we also have to deal with fluctuating currency exchange rates.
You plan to buy a game in 2 weeks, the dollar drops by a penny and suddenly your paying hundreds more in unexpected cost. You can plan and save for taxes, but we don’t even know what the price is until we go pay. The price is calculated that day.
You should try bitcoin! *cough*
Quoted from Buzz:Tax evasion has always been Americans #1 sport it's in our DNA. Can't wait to see people selling pins off the back of trucks in an alley at shows.
Well I mean....it's like everyone forgets why we broke away from Britain...it doesn't get more American than wanting less taxes.
Quoted from RTS:Get Mexico to pay for it!
(But then later ask those who already knew it was a stupid idea that would never happen, have them pay for it.)
Careeeeful. Surprised this thread hasn't been shut down yet, but going that direction will surely do it.
Quoted from NeilMcRae:$13,866.59 is what we pay for a LE...
so it could be a hell of a lot worse for you!
These kind of posts aren't helpful. It could always be worse. The objective is to stop it before it gets worse. For some, that is chump change. For others, that's the decision between a 1,2 or none. We could go into the whole 'tax' thing again, but the reality is everyone wants something as cheap as they can get it. Very few people don't care about price.
Well I know we are only talking pinball here, but it affects everything. It's cumulative. It all adds up. For those that think it is something illegal, it's a long standing loophole. Smart money concious people use loopholes. It's one of the few loopholes us middle class people had that actually made a difference. Now that loophole is going to be closed. It WILL affect things, including this hobby.
Quoted from fxdwg:I remember in high school being taught that sales tax on commercial goods is only ever collected ONCE. (certainly there are exceptions to that rule, although I have never understood why you pay taxes on the sale of a car over and over again.) Otherwise you would have to charge sales tax at flea markets and garage sales or anywhere you bought anything.
Now mind you, I think I was in high school like 100 years ago. or at least it seems. so take that for what its worth.
for the jr. distributors, if they have a vendors license, they would not pay tax to the larger distributor because it would be marked as a wholesale purchase, and would have a tax exempt number, but then its up to the jr. distributor to charge sales tax on "their" sale. If they don't have a vendors license, their original purchase would NOT be tax exempt, and they would pay the larger distributor tax on their purchase of X machines.
I used to run a small business back in the day, and at least that is how it was explained to me. I had to report all sales for the year and the taxes I collected on those sales. depending on dollar amount, sales tax was paid quarterly or monthly to the state.
Well it's not true. You pay sales tax on a new car, you pay sales tax on a used car...etc. The tax system needs an overhaul, that's for sure. Person to person sales with no registrations that don't go through 'stores' are the only way to truly avoid double tax. This is why online shopping took off so well. Everywhere else you pay tax new AND used. The car thing happens because they can get away with it. I've never understood if anyone has tried to contest it or change it, but if not, it needs to be.
(sorry realized we are pretty much saying the same thing)
Quoted from Luckydogg420:Again, I disagree. I pay my taxes for every purchase I make, without complaint.
This isn’t a new tax, you just can’t avoid it as easily as you used to.
IMHO refusing to pay taxes is the same as not paying your government. Anyone/anything without an income won’t last. Taxes are the way your government collects money to keep the country going. Without income the government would collapse or be shutdown. Whom runs the country when nobody’s getting paid to do it? The military? They want your money too. How about the state? Nope. They also want your money to stay a float. Municipalities? Same.
You might not like my socialist view, that’s ok you don’t have to like me, or my view, or my country. But the fact is that if everything is tax free then the world wouldn’t work.
America’s #1 export is debt to China. If taxes don’t pay for that what will?
You have a lot to say about something you clearly don't even understand what people are complaining about. No one is saying not to pay taxes, or their fair share of taxes. Secondly, the two countries handle taxes differently, so for you to be all high and mighty about it really doesn't mean anything. There are so many apologists on this forum you'd think it was full of 18 year olds that don't know how the world works. Maybe the flip side is it's a bunch of really old guys who gave up the fight long ago and just bend over.
Quoted from Luckydogg420:afm95
Thanks for the respectful response.I believe in a shared system, not pay to play, remember not everything is free to everyone in Canada.
But there's no way you will convince me that if you can buy a $5k toy, that you can't afford the sales tax on it. Especially if you live in a area that you should be paying that tax. Regardless of buying it online or at a brick and mortar store.
I believe if your address requires sales tax then you man up and pay it. Dont look for ways to avoid it. If you truly hate sales taxes in your area, move to a less taxed area. Taxes are here for a reason and avoiding them only helps your own pocket. And some people are ok with that, I'm not. Maybe it's my poor morals in wanting to do my part?
It's like this whole conversation has went over your head. Please read up on American history.
Quoted from Luckydogg420:After all that I've learned on the American tax system in the last couple days, it's hard to say it's not failing on many levels.
Canada is failing in many areas to. The idea is to work toward something better.
(Maybe to much time with family over the holidays has got me a little more salty then usual. I need to smoke a joint and calm the fuck down)
So you say that it is a failed system, but think people should just blindly agree to everything and just throw money at it? Makes sense....................................................
Quoted from flynnibus:That's a bit incorrect - General Sales taxes and Auto taxes are not one in the same.
Sales tax is not collected typically on private resale. Cars are a special case where states have enacted specific USE taxes on those items, not just general sales tax. And in the case of cars, the Auto Use & Sales tax is collected by the state prior to allowing you to register the vehicle.
Note, when you sell a car privately, you don't collect tax... but the buyer is obligated to pay it, and the state will enforce it before allowing the car to be registered for use.
Good call out, I spaced off use tax...which is funny since I mentioned it earlier in the thread
Quoted from yzfguy:Do you really believe that most people put the true price they paid for a used car on that paperwork?
Person to person sales, yes it does get fudged. When from a dealer though, it gets put on the title.
That's okay, from some of the posts here they are more than willing to pay that extra $500 gladly to help home and country, we'll just sell it to them. Maybe even just round it up to a nice $1000. Government can never have too much money.
Quoted from rai:I’m sure about it.
You think because a few people you know aren’t buying new pins that means no one is buying new pins?
I don’t know anyone buying a Beatles pin does that mean no one at all is buying one? People have said all the time “ new pins are too expensive look at LotR was $4K back in the day now $8K for a BM66 are you kidding me? “. People spend $15K on BM66 SLE.
LOL if you think no one will buy NIB pins because they cost a bit more.
There's a difference between 'no one' and 'fewer'.
Quoted from rai:I said people will still buy nib pins. Underlord asked if I was sure about that? what part was I wrong about?
Either I’m right and people will still buy nib pins or I’m wrong (and underlord is right) which means no one will buy nib pins any more.
You think a price hike will cause people to stop buying something?
Here is a link https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2018/10/04/pickup-truck-prices-vehicles/1455588002/
It says the average selling price of full size Pickup truck is $48K which up 48% from 10 years ago. Guess what full size PU trucks still sell in the millions of units. Some PU trucks can cost as much as $100K.
For many vehicles are considered a necessity. Pinball machines, not so much. The bigger point is that while people will exaggerate and say 'no one' what they really mean is fewer, and that could mean far fewer. It wouldn't take that many less sales to impact new production numbers.
Quoted from Pinzap:My Munsters LE will be sans tax. I haven’t paid past the deposit yet, but have been assured by the distributor that he won’t hit the Nexus threshold limit in my state and thus no tax required. Not sure how that plays out if things change and he does indeed hit that 100,000 threshold. Maybe he’ll just not sell any more for the year after he hits $92-94k or something like that?
Unless I’m wrong (and I am often), many people will be abandoning their long time preferred distributors and switching to ones in far away states. With drop shipping, until the rules change, a collector in Florida could buy a pin from a distributor in North Dakota (for instance) and probably be guaranteed of not paying taxes. Not exactly sure what this will do to support, but I’ve needed minimal for any of my NIB anyway.
Hmm...wait, maybe I misunderstood it. Are you saying that the limit is per each state they sell to, not a total of the distributors business? That makes a world of difference.
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Kellogg, IA