2019 New Pinball purchase will be taxed.

(Topic ID: 233111)

2019 New Pinball purchase will be taxed.


By mnpinball

76 days ago



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  • 585 posts
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  • Latest reply 57 days ago by Buzz
  • Topic is favorited by 18 Pinsiders

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    #351 75 days ago
    Quoted from musketd:

    JJP has pushed prices out of control every title they push the price up like pirates 9500$ which is insane I remember when they were at 6500$ not a bad price, but they just keep pushing the price up; now a company like CGC who maintain the same prices all the time is definitely helping us the collectors and even lowering the price on their classics to 6k which is amazing. Especially for a lot of us who like the pros. I remember when 4K would get you the full featured game but those days are long gone

    I agree. $1000 price hike per title, on average, from JJP. $6500 WOZ, $7500 Hobbit, $8k-$9k DI, $9500 full-featured Pirates. Basically $10k shipped. Will be $11k with CA Sales Tax. Stern only hikes a couple hundred here, a couple hundred there. Not as noticeable short-term, but it really adds up over time. Sterns are about $1000 higher than 4-5 years ago. And now another $500-$700 sales tax on top? No way.

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    #352 75 days ago

    As distributor do open up an account with each state to be able to pay them? Not sure of how the interstate commerce thing works. As a realtor I think you'll be ok, but your pong business might be a different story. Like I said there are tons of smart successful people on here let's start a solution.

    #353 75 days ago

    This all has to do with economic nexus laws. The solution starts with states with no such laws/no sales tax.

    #354 75 days ago

    Yeah we could have pins shipped to you give you a hundy for your time and pay a second shipping and save maybe a couple hundred. But the more time on a truck brings it's own issues.

    #355 75 days ago

    https://www.taxmatrix.com/louisiana-economic-nexus-january-1-2019/

    Another good site with a downloadable state by state calculator

    Of course there is a ways to go as these states start adopting their own nexus rules.

    But it will be coming rapidly

    The “Economic nexus” is gonna be impossible for the big distributors.

    One solution would be to establish a network of mini sub distributors that wouldn’t violate a “substance over form” argument. Creative contracts

    I will be looking at the issue and thinking about creative ways to avoid this as the state by state rules develop.

    #356 75 days ago

    I personally just don't see how states could keep up with people in other states as to what or what not they are doing. If I was a distributor I would just take the gamble that I wouldn't meet their numbers or they wouldn't waste the resources to prove me wrong.

    #357 75 days ago

    Sub-distributors and gambling against enforcement is where this will head.

    #358 75 days ago

    DBA's possible but still ship from your real warehouse?

    #359 75 days ago

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    #360 75 days ago

    Buzz, I hope you hire a cpa or lawyer before you open up any business. Most of your ideas will get you in trouble.

    -Operators must pay sales tax on the machines they buy or put into service if they are a distro
    -Your tax deduction on charitable giving is the difference between your gift and the FMV of anything you receive for it
    -Museums aren't avoiding sales tax, they avoid income tax
    -You can deduct your sales tax for a business purchase, but it is through depreciation over the life of the asset, and not a 1st year write off (unless there are special tax incentives). Also, you aren't really getting your money back, only your marginal tax rate times the taxes paid - so maxing out at 40ish percent
    - Your business better be real, and not a basement collection - This would be seen as straight up fraud and your penalties are multiplied for that, plus you can get jail time
    - DBA's don't help

    Avoiding taxes is a national sport, but the governments have figured out most of these simple tricks.

    Other comments -
    - Sales taxes are only paid on retail sales in most states, not for hobbyist or personal sales. Even selling at a show or event would not require tax unless you are acting as a business - meaning selling a lot of machines or other pinball related goods
    - Trade-ins - depends on the states, some net out the value for the tax basis, some don't

    Call around if you are buying from out of state distros, some will have a nexus in your state, others won't, some will ignore the tax, and others won't. It's just going to take a little more work to figure out your best option

    Happy 2019 to you all!

    #361 75 days ago

    Stern has potential liability here as well

    Drop shipping a game straight from Chicago to your doorstep.

    Enforcement is gonna be extremely tough for these states

    But if you can go straight to the original Seller on drop ships AND sales tax wasn’t collected by the Distro it could leave Stern with potential exposure

    I deal with Doctor groups and navigating the “Stark” anti referral rules. VERY creative and the state AG office is always two steps behind because they don’t have the manpower to enforce and/or change the rules timely enough to make a difference

    Stern needs to help figure this out and not just think they are going to pass this cost on

    #362 75 days ago

    Very informative. Interpretation of black and white is how some make a living. I believe you can take a depreciation over years or one lump loss. You are 100% correct on you better make sure your legit or you will pay a fine or go to a country club type institution with the other 1%. A good team on your side is always vital. I thought with the community we have of experience that a solution could be found. So possible the gifts I receive from my donations the organization possible paid tax on as well. Just trying to get the creative juices flowing. As many rich have stated they didn't write the tax laws they just find the best way to follow them.

    #363 74 days ago
    Quoted from Buzz:

    I believe you can take a depreciation over years or one lump loss.

    Sorry, but no. Pinball machines are 7-year recovery property.

    If you want to generate ideas from the CPAs, lawyers, and business owners here, you would probably be more successful if you drop the pejorative references about them.

    #364 74 days ago

    Right on. I obviously don't know shit about any of it. I just thought it was an idea worth looking at. In the end no distributor is going to care if you have to pay sales tax and go out of their way to help you not. It was a good ride while it lasted. Thanks for the informative information.

    #365 74 days ago
    Quoted from Monte:

    You should move south to America!

    Or just stay where you are.

    #366 74 days ago

    Busy thread, may as well join in.

    As I understand things, nothing has changed. We as consumers have been "requested" to report our out of state purchases and then submit the proper amount during tax season. That next to nobody has done it is the issue so instead of us reporting, the seller is now doing it for us.

    Of course, the local brick and mortar and old school main street have been ravaged by the internet. Or dare it to be said, we now are being "married" to tax collection rather than just getting "it" for free.

    I'm a flat tax advocate. One rate, nationwide on all transactions. I don't know if this will erased or moderated but it is complete nonsense that that form or revenue gathering is "regressive" or any other phony term invented to make us think it's a "bad" way of operating a revenue stream for a government. All a flat tax does it take away the power from both of the parade walking lying double talking bozos that are the core of both worthless parties. They can no longer give breaks as they feel it benefits them. Instead, they are required to do a proper job of spending in an intelligent and responsible way. So they lie as much as possible to stop it. Regressive is only applicable to the loss of power the bozos will lose, not how it affects us. If we don't have money to spend, we shouldn't be spending it. End of story. And by the same token, when everybody pays, everybody owns. Now when many are deadbeats, they simply do not care. They have no ownership.

    Enough, delete as you wish. But it's pathetic that the assorted tax codes, the vast majority are not there to benefit the payer but the writer. And we can't figure out what's wrong?

    #367 74 days ago

    #368 74 days ago
    Quoted from BagAJellyDonuts:

    Busy thread, may as well join in.

    I'm a flat tax advocate. One rate, nationwide on all transactions. I don't know if this will erased or moderated but it is complete nonsense that that form or revenue gathering is "regressive" or any other phony term invented to make us think it's a "bad" way of operating a revenue stream for a government. All a flat tax does it take away the power from both of the parade walking lying double talking bozos that are the core of both worthless parties. They can no longer give breaks as they feel it benefits them.
    Enough, delete as you wish. But it's pathetic that the assorted tax codes, the vast majority are not there to benefit the payer but the writer. And we can't figure out what's wrong?

    The US will have been dissolved or taken over by a foreign country long before a flat tax will ever happen, then it won't matter.

    The tax laws have always been designed to not only collect taxes, but influence public behavior. Personally as I see it, as the liability of state pension payouts increases, states have to do all they can. The tobacco lawsuit funds dried up years ago, and expenses were never cut to compensate.

    #369 74 days ago

    My finger hurts from all the up/down voting.

    All I know is all my sales receipts mysteriously went up in flames in my tragic boating accident.

    #370 74 days ago

    When gubmints try to influence behavior through tax policy, my inner terrorist begins to stir. It angers me.

    #371 74 days ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    Stern has potential liability here as well
    Drop shipping a game straight from Chicago to your doorstep.
    Enforcement is gonna be extremely tough for these states
    But if you can go straight to the original Seller on drop ships AND sales tax wasn’t collected by the Distro it could leave Stern with potential exposure
    I deal with Doctor groups and navigating the “Stark” anti referral rules. VERY creative and the state AG office is always two steps behind because they don’t have the manpower to enforce and/or change the rules timely enough to make a difference
    Stern needs to help figure this out and not just think they are going to pass this cost on

    Too bad SKitB folded. Otherwise we could CONsult with mama K of their Legal department and get the real scoop......

    #372 74 days ago

    $13,866.59 is what we pay for a LE...

    so it could be a hell of a lot worse for you!

    #373 74 days ago
    Quoted from NeilMcRae:

    $13,866.59 is what we pay for a LE...
    so it could be a hell of a lot worse for you!

    These kind of posts aren't helpful. It could always be worse. The objective is to stop it before it gets worse. For some, that is chump change. For others, that's the decision between a 1,2 or none. We could go into the whole 'tax' thing again, but the reality is everyone wants something as cheap as they can get it. Very few people don't care about price.

    #374 74 days ago
    Quoted from NeilMcRae:

    $13,866.59 is what we pay for a LE...
    so it could be a hell of a lot worse for you!

    If I average the purchase costs of my games I could buy 23.11 of my games for 1 of those.

    #375 74 days ago

    First World Problems...

    #376 74 days ago

    It's a huge issue for everyone. It's the Wayfair act and people are not ready for it. Some states have a 100 transactions and 100k. Some have or instead of the and.

    I think this is going to hurt NIB pinball sales. I do not think further price increases will be accepted. Second hand sales will be much more favorable.

    #377 73 days ago
    Quoted from hank527:

    It's a huge issue for everyone. It's the Wayfair act and people are not ready for it. Some states have a 100 transactions and 100k. Some have or instead of the and.
    I think this is going to hurt NIB pinball sales. I do not think further price increases will be accepted. Second hand sales will be much more favorable.

    HUO has long been the way to go, especially when trying to navigate all of Stern’s reported quality issues.

    #378 73 days ago
    Quoted from Zablon:

    These kind of posts aren't helpful. It could always be worse. The objective is to stop it before it gets worse. For some, that is chump change. For others, that's the decision between a 1,2 or none. We could go into the whole 'tax' thing again, but the reality is everyone wants something as cheap as they can get it. Very few people don't care about price.

    helpful to you no. helpful to me to remind Stern we are being fleeced in the UK and they need to act - yes

    #379 73 days ago

    Everyone be like IM NOT PAYING MORE.....10 minutes later OHHHHHH LOOK AT THAT SHINEY BOX OF LIGHTS! I WANT AN LE. TAKE MY MONEY

    #380 73 days ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    Everyone be like IM NOT PAYING MORE.....10 minutes later OHHHHHH LOOK AT THAT SHINEY BOX OF LIGHTS! I WANT AN LE. TAKE MY MONEY

    Dont count on it. I think theres a considerable amount of people who are at their limit on NIB pinball machines. This will hurt NIB sales big time.

    #381 73 days ago

    I was priced out after a $7500 TWDLE. Yeah, dream theme and last nib purchase. 9 grand + for a pin? Nope.

    #382 73 days ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    Everyone be like IM NOT PAYING MORE.....10 minutes later OHHHHHH LOOK AT THAT SHINEY BOX OF LIGHTS! I WANT AN LE. TAKE MY MONEY

    Maybe a few, but fewer and fewer.

    #383 73 days ago
    Quoted from underlord:

    Maybe a few, but fewer and fewer.

    Yep and every sale counts in the pinball industry.

    #384 73 days ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    Everyone be like IM NOT PAYING MORE.....10 minutes later OHHHHHH LOOK AT THAT SHINEY BOX OF LIGHTS! I WANT AN LE. TAKE MY MONEY

    Bought handful of LEs including DPLE.

    Love Munsters and it will be a premium for me! NIB LEs are definitely getting out of my range.

    -9
    #385 73 days ago
    Quoted from underlord:

    Maybe a few, but fewer and fewer.

    If they can afford $7k for a pinball, they can afford 7.5k. What else are they gonna spend it on?

    #386 73 days ago
    Quoted from Methos:

    If they can afford $7k for a pinball, they can afford 7.5k. What else are they gonna spend it on?

    Its not a matter of someone who can afford 7k can afford 7.5k. Its a matter of principal. I may give 20 bucks for a pizza but if they raise the price to 25 dollars i would tell them to take a hike. A person that can afford 7k for a pinball machine could probably afford to pay 10k also, but that doesn't mean they will. I know millionaires that wouldnt even consider buying a pinball machine even if they was 3 or 4 thousand.

    #387 73 days ago
    Quoted from Methos:

    If they can afford $7k for a pinball, they can afford 7.5k. What else are they gonna spend it on?

    more not NIB pins probably. Lol

    There is no doubt more and more are priced out with each increase. And more will opt for a cheaper used game rather than nib as the price continues up.

    #388 73 days ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    True. There are always people that look to skirt around the laws. Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

    Just remember Tax Planning and Tax Avoidance are two different things.

    #389 73 days ago
    Quoted from underlord:

    I was priced out after a $7500 TWDLE. Yeah, dream theme and last nib purchase. 9 grand + for a pin? Nope.

    Yup. I drew the same line at $7500 for LE. Haven't bought any of those lately. Also drew the line at mid-$6's for Premiums. Haven't bought any of those lately. Mid-$5s I can stomach for a good Pro. Looks like my days of buying those NIB just ended as well.

    #390 73 days ago
    Quoted from Methos:

    If they can afford $7k for a pinball, they can afford 7.5k. What else are they gonna spend it on?

    That line was already pushed after being drawn in the sand, multiple times. Secondary market is affordable, somewhat, and when it’s not, it’s just a hobby.

    This is the sports cards collectors market. Step by step how to fail.

    Cash grab, flood market for easy money by TRYING to produce artificial collectibility, rinse and repeat.

    How many $25k Beatle-witches can Stern sell while fingering the core base?

    About as many as JJP can price increase a grand at a time for the same core-base. Then one morning the core base has discovered another hobby.

    #391 73 days ago

    Just read this about tax exempt states, looks lik Oregon indeed has no state sales tax but doesnt look like they really win on their state taxes. But am curious if you drive to buy a pin in one of these states from another state, do you win? Looks like the state tax rate in Oregon is one of the highest in the country. Are there any nib pin dealers in these 5 states? If so do you live close enough that the driving costs doesnt kill it?

    Oregon has a personal income tax usually ranking in the top 10 percent of the nation. Since Oregon does not have a sales tax, the primary source of revenue is the income tax. ... Four other states (Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire) also do not have a sales tax although some Alaska cities levy a sales tax.

    Also wonder if you buy in one of these states do you have to provide an in state address and are you committing tax fraud if you lie?

    #392 73 days ago
    Quoted from indy5mike:

    Just read this about tax exempt states, looks lik Oregon indeed has no state sales tax but doesnt look like they really win on their state taxes. But am curious if you drive to buy a pin in one of these states from another state, do you win? Looks like the state tax rate in Oregon is one of the highest in the country. Are there any nib pin dealers in these 5 states? If so do you live close enough that the driving costs doesnt kill it?
    Oregon has a personal income tax usually ranking in the top 10 percent of the nation. Since Oregon does not have a sales tax, the primary source of revenue is the income tax. ... Four other states (Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire) also do not have a sales tax although some Alaska cities levy a sales tax.
    Also wonder if you buy in one of these states do you have to provide an in state address and are you committing tax fraud if you lie?

    Yes, no sales tax for out of staters at point of sale.
    If you feeling extra good though you can claim usage tax on yourself and pay your states sales tax on your tax returns.

    On a side note
    If I go to WA I show my OR ID they remove sales tax, as long as the purchasing item is returning with me to Oregon.

    -5
    #393 73 days ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    Its not a matter of someone who can afford 7k can afford 7.5k. Its a matter of principal

    Principals or morals?

    I will only buy a NIB as long as I don’t have to pay the taxes for where I live. I don’t want to move to a tax free state. I want to live where I am and not contribute my share to my local government. As long as I don’t have to pay what I should have been paying all along.

    If you can’t afford to pay your taxes then it’s not a matter of principle. If you refuse to pay your taxes it’s not a matter of principal. IMHO it’s a matter of entitlement. I’m to rich, smart, or savvy to have to do my part. Taxes are only payed by schleps that can’t find how to avoid them.

    If these are your principles, then I think your immoral

    Principles are subjective, morals are definable are right and wrong. Avoiding to pay the taxes you rightfully owe is wrong.

    #394 73 days ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    Principals or morals?
    I will only buy a NIB as long as I don’t have to pay the taxes for where I live. I don’t want to move to a tax free state. I want to live where I am and not contribute my share to my local government. As long as I don’t have to pay what I should have been paying all along.
    If you can’t afford to pay your taxes then it’s not a matter of principle. If you refuse to pay your taxes it’s not a matter of principal. IMHO it’s a matter of entitlement. I’m to rich, smart, or savvy to have to do my part. Taxes are only payed by schleps that can’t find how to avoid them.
    If these are your principles, then I think your immoral
    Principles are subjective, morals are definable are right and wrong. Avoiding to pay the taxes you rightfully owe is wrong.

    Schlep here. I live in NH, my property taxes are high, sky high. For schools, trash pickup, etc.

    I work in Mass, I pay full State taxes for the privilege of working there, yet enjoy no benefits from public schools, trash pickup, etc.

    This isn’t the exempt church of pinball. Stern, JJP pay taxes on all components to assemble, employees pay wage tax, contractors supplying them pay taxes. Everyone pays.

    Meanwhile government spends money like idiots, since money has no direct loss to any particular person or group.. Look at a 401k. Market goes down, it drops quick and hard. Market goes up, 401 crawls up slow.

    Taxes and death. Unavoidable. But price hikes, then taxes? Yes, this will be JUST a rich mans hobby.

    #395 73 days ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    Its not a matter of someone who can afford 7k can afford 7.5k. Its a matter of principal.

    To you maybe, I'm sure not to the majority of them.

    #396 73 days ago
    Quoted from underlord:

    Schlep here. I live in NH, my property taxes are high, sky high. For schools, trash pickup, etc.
    I work in Mass, I pay full State taxes for the privilege of working there, yet enjoy no benefits from public schools, trash pickup, etc.
    This isn’t the exempt church of pinball. Stern, JJP pay taxes on all components to assemble, employees pay wage tax, contractors supplying them pay taxes. Everyone pays.
    Meanwhile government spends money like idiots, since money has no direct loss to any particular person or group.. Look at a 401k. Market goes down, it drops quick and hard. Market goes up, 401 crawls up slow.

    Taxes are set by lawmakers, lawmakers are put into office by you. If your taxes are too high, it's because you and your fellow voters believe it's more important to pay for government expenses and provide some distribution of wealth to those less fortunate.

    If you think your taxes are too high, you're in for a much more funride in the next few years if Ocasio-Cortez gets her way.

    20
    #397 73 days ago

    I work for the feds and have seen firsthand tax money being pissed away left, right and center.

    There's a term they use near the end of the fiscal year called "March madness." If the budget for the year isn't spent by the last month of the fiscal year (April) then they'll have to return whatever excess budget money they have. And they will get a smaller budget the following year.

    So to ensure they never get a smaller budget, they go through "March madness" to spend the remaining budget money before April 1st. (New air conditioners, kureg coffee machines, chairs, desks, fleet vehicles,etc)

    I have never seen them return ANY budget money....EVER!!

    So when people defend any new taxes it really makes my blood boil. The amount of taxpayer money being wasted is mind boggling!

    -3
    #398 73 days ago
    Quoted from TheHueManatee:

    I work for the feds and have seen firsthand tax money being pissed away left, right and center.
    There's a term they use near the end of the fiscal year called "March madness." If the budget for the year isn't spent by the last month of the fiscal year (April) then they'll get a smaller budget the following year.
    So to ensure they never get a smaller budget, they go through "March madness" to spend the remaining budget money before April 1st. (New air conditioners, kureg coffee machines, chairs, desks, fleet vehicles,etc)
    So when people defend any new taxes it really makes my blood boil. The amount of taxpayer money being wasted is mind boggling!

    Nobody’s defending poor government spending.
    Nobody’s defending new taxes.

    The new enforcement is what people are mad about. The tax was there all along, they were just more easily able to avoid them before. And now the line in the sand has been drawn, not because of new taxes, because people refuse to pay their share.

    If you don’t like the tax in your State, move, don’t be immortal and avoid the right thing to do.

    Nobody likes to pay tax, but if nobody actually pays tax then your country won’t exist. It’s kinda how the whole thing works.

    #399 73 days ago
    Quoted from Methos:

    Taxes are set by lawmakers, lawmakers are put into office by you. If your taxes are too high, it's because you and your fellow voters believe it's more important to pay for government expenses and provide some distribution of wealth to those less fortunate.
    If you think your taxes are too high, you're in for a much more funride in the next few years if Ocasio-Cortez gets her way.

    I’ll always think my taxes are too high, c’mon man.

    Good example. Not a lot of snow so far this year. DPW was out salting roads on a 45 degree day. No snow in forecast. Cuz budget needs to be spent? Short term blindness. America has an epidemic of it. Long term thinkers are boring.

    Local contractor got punched when he was charging $400/curb for new hospital addition. Reporter asks city council: how much do these cost MY street? IDIOT says everyone pays $200/curb. Why? Cuz it’s a city contract with a hospital. So? Hospitals bring in taxes. Reporter says, ‘same excess you’re spending right now?’
    Idiot says, ‘Not right away. Within 10 years project pays for itself.’ Everyone laughs.

    Multiply this reasoning times 100,000+.

    Anyways...pinball.

    #400 73 days ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    don’t be immortal and avoid the right thing to do.

    Government's, like politicians, should lead by example.

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