That national average is likely skewed by all the broke asses who pay no income tax.

Started from the bottom, now we’re here. I’m very fortunate to have a life now that can afford a NIB game. It takes decades of hard work and proper life choices to turn your life around.

Not really, this is a country filled with multi millionaires so the top balances out the bottom pretty well. Average household income is fairly high and the % of taxes they pay is pretty darn low.

Also all the rich asses who pay no income tax.

Not sure that's actually true... Looks like this says the average is 21% - just Federal taxes, not including social security, medicare, gas, electric, various cell phone and cable tv and etc taxes. https://taxfoundation.org/how-much-do-people-pay-taxes/

This says the average is 30% -- excluding property taxes, consumption taxes, etc. https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/03/04/whats-the-average-americans-tax-rate.aspx

Good point! Middle Class gets screwed.

Pretty much everytime.

All I'm saying is these Canadians are chiming in about how we should feel warm and fuzzy about paying more taxes, like some of them apparently do, but that ain't happening so long as I see multi-trillion dollar bullet trains to nowhere and congresspeople retiring with 100x higher net worth than they came into the job with. It's a matter of principal.

You are close to correct at 30% for all taxes paid. I just looked it up to see in a few places. National average for federal is just above 14%. I'm not sure that accounts for all of the people that get back more then they paid in though. There are numerous cases were someone can get back thousands more then they paid in that year.

be positive, imagine all the new jobs the compliance aspect will create.

IRS code section 183 contains 'hobby loss rules' which require the taxpayer to show/meet guidelines of a profit motive in order to prevent the writing off the personal expenses of a hobby under the guise of running a business.

manufacturers should look into using nonprofits as distributors.
they do not charge/collect sales tax.

nonprofits (resized).jpg

Some additional info:

https://www.irs.com/articles/tax-tips-people-who-earn-income-hobby

Check out the tax rates back in the 1970's, and interest rates. We have it good.

Taxes go to services and public aid, nothing wrong with that. If you can't afford an extra $500 for a NIB, maybe you shouldn't get one.

15% is way way low. Middle income america is paying what 18-23% in federal income taxes alone? Add to that sales tax, and all the other 'little taxes' that get put on top of it. It is around 50% (I will concede maybe it isn't 'most') but it is more than it should be. Somewhere there was a rule about only being taxed once...that clearly isn't being adhered to.

Ahh, the old 'if you can't afford' nonsense argument. No sir, you are wrong. People have been battling taxes for centuries. Governments are greedy. I don't care what goody good they claim to be doing with the said money. If anyone actually knew exactly how that money was used no one would be defending it. I can only speak to the military to a degree. The amount of waste and over charged for junk is crazy.

That being said, the 'extra' you refer to will vary by state obviously. What is $500 to one is $700 to another, etc.

Look it up. It's around 30% for the average household.

Not arguing about the amount of waste. On top of that we are still trillions in debt. It all makes sense if you dont think about it.....

I did look it up - and provided links as evidence. PAYROLL tax is 30% for the average household. That does NOT include things like capital gains taxes, property taxes, gas tax, consumption tax, hell even your cell phone and TV bill have taxes on them.

Here it is again for those who missed it:
https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/03/04/whats-the-average-americans-tax-rate.aspx

For those who don't want to read.

So, what is the average American's overall tax rate?

If you add up the four income-based categories of taxation (Federal, state/local, Social Security, and Medicare), the average American's effective tax rate is 29.8%. This is in addition to any consumption-based taxes paid, such as sales tax, property tax, or other taxes on specific items.

(not sure how to bold, but read the 2nd line).

And yes, I was referring to 'tax burden' which is what I stated. Not just income tax and sales tax.

Show of hands of who here is really tapping out on NIB for an extra $500 of taxes? I know a lot of people will grimace and bitch, but when the time comes and they have that itch, they will pay.

Incorrect. Payroll tax (Social Security and Medicare) is nowhere near 30%... more like 7%-8% for most employees and double that (15%-16%) for the self-employed, who pay both the employer’s and the employee’s share.

OMG, stop nit-picking. I meant taxes that come from your paycheck -- did you even READ the link I provided and that Zablon quoted on the VERY NEXT POST and that you UPVOTED?!

Well it depends on where your cutoff is. Sure some of you money baggers (and I don't consider myself poor by any means). If you are ONLY talking about $5k stern low end model, then okay...maybe you have a point, but let's talk 8k+ premiums/le's from all. That tax goes up with the price. That $500 is now $800+. Now it isn't a 8k (or 9k for JJP) game, it's a 9k (10k) game. Let's not get stuck on $500...because that simply isn't the whole story or even true for the majority of the US since the average sales tax is over 8%.

The point though is that yes...that simple change can and will deter some people from buying. Maybe not the majority of addicts on this site, but in general. People like to think they are getting a deal, and while yes we all know everyone was SUPPOSED to be paying this tax anyway, the majority have NOT been paying it since 1995. Of course they are going to complain. I've already slowed down my online spending because of it.

So do we

My head is spinning... maybe due to this thread swirling down the toilet... not sure yet.

It's taxes, did you think it was going to be rainbows?

With all due respect, this is stated like someone who neither understands nor cares about how this affects those that it actually affects the most (people in e-commerce, one of whom is me). It's far more complicated than he even stated. Every quarter I spend about an hour compiling my sales tax data for Nebraska, all so I can send the state a check for $50-$80. So I am a tax collector for Nebraska, and I work for them for free. And after I work for free I am sending them a sum total of LESS than what the time I spent on it is worth.

And now I'm supposed to do that for 50 states? Keep in mind .005% (that's the actual #) of our business is actually in Nebraska, so my workload would go up potentially a thousand times what it is now. Not only that, but I must stay on top of all state laws regarding exactly which items are taxable and which are not and adjust those accordingly per state. So even if they have simplified things by removing the local/municipality taxing jurisdictions, it's still insanely complicated.

All of this of course completely ignores the fact that I'll soon be at a competitive disadvantage to any competitor located in a state without a sales tax. And also what it will do to the e-commerce industry as a whole (this will crush small businesses for many reasons including time/hassle, and move many survivors to non-sales tax states). In terms of pinball, a distributor in a non-sales tax state will have a clear advantage over any remotely close distributor in a sales tax state for obvious reasons (if I can go pick up a pin from a distributor in a neighboring state and avoid sales tax, I'm probably going to do that). For the smaller guys like the parts/bulbs sellers etc, my business is nearly identical to theirs (in principal) and their problems will mirror my own.

The "fairness to local business angle" is disingenuous at best, as shipping costs (e-commerce cost to consumer increase) are usually more than sales taxes (local cost to consumer increase) anyways. Two of the largest lobbies for online sales taxes have been Walmart and more recently Amazon (only after their nexus reached the point where it was competitively beneficial to them). Much like what happens all to often in this country, they rile up folks with an easy to follow narrative (mom and pop shops have to collect sales tax, why shouldn't online businesses?) that sounds logical on it's surface but is massively flawed in the face of any more than a basic understanding of how any of this works. Look at the changes in any small community pre and post Walmart...this is already happening online and sales tax will only speed it up.

The only semi-positive outcome at this point can be that they create a single rate for all e-commerce with a single clearinghouse that decides how to divvy those funds up among the states. So now I just need to trust politicians to know, understand and care enough to fix it. What could go wrong?

The real problem is, who are you gonna bitch at?

In the old days...say three years ago...it was pretty easy for most folks here to use their ready-made scapegoat.

Now...we’ll its confusing to say the least. I hope that everybody figures something out or there gonna be lots of pent up frustration!

I’m thinking I’ll go with Canada. Definitely their fault!!!

I'd love to buy local, but my local distro wants to charge me MSRP. So, no NIB from my local distro.

Depends how much the actual OTD price is but $500 is a big bump. eXpecially when there was already sort of a $500 bump not too long ago.
Of course as long as the value holds up over time as it has been, it might still be OK.

I was hoping for Unicorn farts and lollipops lol

Here in Canada have a few fancy words for what is a tax. Best one is Levy. Luxury Tax. Goods and Services Tax. School Tax. H.S.T.. Federal Excise Tax. Property Tax. Income Tax. Fuel Surplus Tax. Environmental taxes for tires, batteries, air conditioning and oil. Transit Tax. Just to name a few, and some fees are a taxed tax.

Same in the states...my favorite is 'use tax'.

Not picking on you at all Law but they will do what you just did and rationalize it. If a person can afford to buy a NIB, they will find a way to rationalize the extra taxes to scratch that itch.

Our tax structure, and more importantly what taxes are used for, is F'ed. You raise taxes, people bitch. You lower them, people bitch. This person pays too much. This person pays too little. Until taxation is more tightly aligned with our our federal budgeting process, we are going to be in the same boat.

Not neccessarily true because most people have a limit on what they will pay for certain items and i think the pinball prices are at their limit for a lot of people, me included. Even if a person is pretty wealthy it becomes a matter of principal to them when items reach a certain price, especially an item like a pinball machine.

Believe me I understand my post is completely rationalizing it.
The problem for them is I'm already on the bottom, and at a certain point I will drop out of their market all together. LE & premium buyers could at least go down to a pro.

What if a used machine is sold and shipped from another state to you by a brick and mortar store? Is that also taxable? Does that mean that pinball parts suppliers will also have to charge and track sales tax on their shipments? I can see Steve Young going for that!

Glad that the canadians are chiming in here. We here in the US could learn a lot from these socialists

technically any transaction is taxable. Cash in hand person to person is really the only way to 'avoid' it. Any business is 'required' to report it.

What WILL happen though is that used sale prices will go up to adjust for the tax they paid NIB so you won't be able to avoid it completely.

My friends the canadians,

I have really wanted to get me a nib pin. I need to have someone else pay for it, since I cannot afford one. Please give me a step by step format on how I may achieve this goal. I love socialism so so much.

Private schools are perceived as "better" than public schools for these reasons: Charging tuition keeps out the riff raff. And if any riff raff happens to enter even though their folks can afford the tuition, they can be booted out at any time for any misbehavior. Couple that with no obligation to educate special needs kids or anyone else on the fringes, and there you go.

You make a very fair point. The principal topic is a very valid one. Additionally, I was looking at the purchasing as more of "if you are paying x, paying y is the cost of doing business." As you accurately mentioned, some people have strict limits (financial and principal) that they do not cross, and I was not necessarily looking at it through that lens.

Don’t quite think you get it. I have never met anyone that thinks that way.

Yes, 50 states. "Not that complicated" wasn't meant as an absolute: it was obviously meant relative to what was suggested: you don't have to concern yourself with all the tax permutations of varying municipal and county taxes.

The top “1 percent ers..” pay 40% of the total federal income tax collected

The top 10% pays 71% of the total

The bottom 45% pay Zero Federal income tax

Fact: No matter how you slice it rate wise, you aren’t squeezing any more juice out of the “rich”. They will plan around it or move

Need to look at 1/2 the population that pays ZERO

When you lower taxes, oh wait, unemployment goes to record lows AND wages rise, including the minimum wage across the country and voluntarily for Amazon, Walmart, etc

You want to ration Healthcare? Move to Canada

Many of you should be applauding these sales taxes, but you only want higher taxes as long as it doesn’t apply to you!

Spot on, but so many do not get it

I'm not for more taxes period. It doesn't end. The primary reason for this is unbridled greed. Capitalism fails under it. Ask someone why prices constantly go up, they'll tell you many reasons revolving around wages, taxes, inflation etc, but at the end of the day if you add it all up the majority of American workers wages are not keeping up with any of it, so where is all that extra money going? It sure as heck isn't going into the school systems. The problem is, we can't really discuss much of the inner workings of it without it getting all political, but let's not try to pretend that the 1% for the most part are not paying that much in taxes - they have all kinds of ways out of it that the middle/lower don't. Also, as for the really low income people, how much blood can you get out of a turnip? I'm not a woah is me type person, and I've done well for myself, but the key is I worked for it. I didn't lie, cheat, steal, backstab, etc like many of these companies do. Every day there is some new scandal and what happens if anything? A fine that goes to the government and lawyers, then yet higher prices for consumers.

/end rant cause it could go on and on. In the end, the point is still. No more taxes.

People dont believe this. They think those evil rich people don't pay taxes at all.

Knowing some rich people, 'not paying taxes at all' is a fallacy. Yes they pay taxes, and yes those numbers sound mind crushingly large by the normal persons standard, but at the end of the day, they are still paying quite a bit less per dollar than us minions. Even after the cost of accountants and lawyers (why do you think they pay for them?).

Anyway, this is getting too serious. Pet peeve of mine when people try to pretend that all taxes are a boone for the country, when they clearly are not. Typically when people take that stance I suggest they are free to pay double because Uncle Sam won't turn them away.

Everyone have a good weekend!

This is why politics needs to stay out of Pinside, it just brings out the best in everyone...

PS -> If some other Canadian does know how to get the government to buy me a NIB pin machine, please PM me when you PM srmonte.