(Topic ID: 233111)

2019 New Pinball purchase will be taxed.


By mnpinball

10 months ago



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    #51 10 months ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    Hey I finally got a moderation notice on pinside There’s a first for everything.
    This tax may be a pain in the ass, but I don’t have sympathy for the people that now have to deal with it.

    And whether or not you have sympathy is not really relevant to us.

    #52 10 months ago

    Tesla reduced their prices by $2000 to help offset government credits that are reducing, to help keep their product affordable.

    I wonder if stern will reduce their price to alleviate some of this added cost.

    I keed, I keed

    22
    #53 10 months ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    I wonder if stern will reduce their price to alleviate some of this added cost.

    Dude.gif
    #54 10 months ago

    This could hamper my next purchase. Plus the possibility of a recession in a few months. Interesting year either way.

    #55 10 months ago

    I sold something on eBay to a person in Washington state (i'm in Ohio) and eBay hit them with a tax. It was $10.80 tax on a $120 item. First time i have seen it.

    ebay.com link

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    #56 10 months ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    I'm not happy about this, but in this day and age I don't understand why it is such an accounting nightmare?

    If it were just 50 different tax rates for the 50 different states, it wouldn't be quite that bad. At least in MN, the tax rate can be different from county to county and also city to city. It's not just 50 tax rates you need to keep track of. It could literally be thousands.

    #57 10 months ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    I sold something on eBay to a person in Washington state (i'm in Ohio) and eBay hit them with a tax. It was $10.80 tax on a $120 item. First time i have seen it.
    ebay.com link

    Black market pinball dealers wanted.

    #58 10 months ago

    It started here in Colorado on November 1st. It’s not a federal law. It’s due to a Supreme Court ruling, which now gives the states the ability to enforce collection of state sales tax on internet sales. Which, by the way, you were always technically supposed to pay sales tax on all your online purchases. But that was not easy to enforce, because it was up to the consumer to pay the tax to their state, and no one did it.

    “The U.S. Supreme Court on Thursday overturned the 1992 decision in Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which exempted online retailers from having to collect tax on orders placed by residents of states where retailers did not have a physical presence.”

    I for one am happy to see this FINALLY happen. Levels the playing field for everyone. You should support local businesses. I buy my games from Game Exchange, even before the tax collection rules went into place. The states that haven’t caught on soon will. Of course, those of you that live in states with no sales tax, enjoy........

    There is software and companies out there that can help businesses with this tax collection process.

    #59 10 months ago

    So, living in North Dakota, a state I'm assuming doesn't get a huge rate of NIB purchases because of our size, am I able to find distributors that do less than $100,000 in sales in North Dakota, and therefore don't have to collect sales tax?

    #60 10 months ago
    Quoted from Parzival:

    So, living in North Dakota, a state I'm assuming doesn't get a huge rate of NIB purchases because of our size, am I able to find distributors that do less than $100,000 in sales in North Dakota, and therefore don't have to collect sales tax?

    The way that NIB pricing is going, this is going to be tough to find because $100k in sales will soon just be 3 machines sold to hit that amount....

    #61 10 months ago
    Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

    If it were just 50 different tax rates for the 50 different states, it wouldn't be quite that bad. At least in MN, the tax rate can be different from county to county and also city to city. It's not just 50 tax rates you need to keep track of. It could literally be thousands.

    You are 100% correct Bryan. Walker, MN (Leech Lake) has the highest sales tax of 8.875%, while the lowest tax by any county or city is 6.875%. Minneapolis is at 8.025%.

    I don't know what the new laws say about collecting sales taxes on Internet purchases, but I feel for the small businesses out there that have to track it.

    26
    #62 10 months ago

    Well I'm not paying this tax on any nib pinball machine. Consider this the straw that broke the camel's back. Prices are already too damn high!! This pushes Stern pro's into $6k territory and I will cancel any nib pinball sale requiring this tax.

    #63 10 months ago
    Quoted from Parzival:

    So, living in North Dakota, a state I'm assuming doesn't get a huge rate of NIB purchases because of our size, am I able to find distributors that do less than $100,000 in sales in North Dakota, and therefore don't have to collect sales tax?

    If you live/buy in ND you pay ND sales tax. . . regardless of amount.

    If you live in ND and buy from MT, SD, MN, etc. you could previously avoid the tax due to a purchase across state lines. The way I am understanding the current situation the only people that do not need to worry about the tax are those living in tax free states. Even if you live in ND and order from MT (no state sales tax?) you still have to pay the ND sales tax to the seller in MT -- who then has to send it back to the correct govt. entity back in ND.

    Not sure if that makes sense (or if 100% correct -- but that is how I am interpreting from previous posts). Luckily as a Veterinary Clinic I have not had to collect sales tax on services. . . but they are trying to change that.

    #64 10 months ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    You should support local businesses. I buy my games from Game Exchange, even before the tax collection rules went into place.

    Says the guy with the 6th lowest state sales taxes.

    Kidding aside, I know the taxes are higher than that in Colorado depending on the local sales taxes that are added in, correct? I believe the rough average is right around 7.5%?

    #65 10 months ago
    Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

    Consider this the straw that broke the camel's back.

    Yes it is getting ridiculous. I remember paying $4200 for Pro's just years ago. If they go over $6k it is going to be a hard pill to swallow. Stern really should consider adjusting pricing structure. I am a firm believer in pricing an item to sell more units.

    #66 10 months ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    Says the guy with the 6th lowest state sales taxes.
    Kidding aside, I know the taxes are higher than that in Colorado depending on the local sales taxes that are added in, correct? I believe the rough average is right around 7.5%?

    Where I live the tax is 4%, but in Denver city limits yes 7.5%

    #67 10 months ago
    Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

    Well I'm not paying this tax on any nib pinball machine. Consider this the straw that broke the camel's back. Prices are already too damn high!! This pushes Stern pro's into $6k territory and I will cancel any nib pinball sale requiring this tax.

    You should have been paying tax on them already. This is just an enforcement of existing taxes.

    #68 10 months ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    It started here in Colorado on November 1st. It’s not a federal law. It’s due to a Supreme Court ruling, which now gives the states the ability to enforce collection of state sales tax on internet sales. Which, by the way, you were always technically supposed to pay sales tax on all your online purchases. But that was not easy to enforce, because it was up to the consumer to pay the tax to their state, and no one did it.
    “The U.S. Supreme Court on Thursday overturned the 1992 decision in Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which exempted online retailers from having to collect tax on orders placed by residents of states where retailers did not have a physical presence.”
    I for one am happy to see this FINALLY happen. Levels the playing field for everyone. You should support local businesses. I buy my games from Game Exchange, even before the tax collection rules went into place. The states that haven’t caught on soon will. Of course, those of you that live in states with no sales tax, enjoy........
    There is software and companies out there that can help businesses with this tax collection process.

    There are no distributors in NJ, so I will now have to pay sales tax on a game to level the playing field for what competition? If I am going to be subject to this tax on new games, I’ll just have it delivered to Delaware and get it there. Increases in taxes almost never generate the expected revenue as people either change their consumption patterns or find ways around it.

    -2
    #69 10 months ago
    Quoted from Lermods:

    There are no distributors in NJ, so I will now have to pay sales tax on a game to level the playing field for what competition? If I am going to be subject to this tax on new games, I’ll just have it delivered to Delaware and get it there. Increases in taxes almost never generate the expected revenue as people either change their consumption patterns or find ways around it.

    True. There are always people that look to skirt around the laws. Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

    #70 10 months ago
    Quoted from Lermods:

    There are no distributors in NJ,

    What about Betson?

    #71 10 months ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    Where I live the tax is 4%, but in Denver city limits yes 7.5%

    Wait you guys have different tax brackets within the state of Colorado as well. So Federal tax and then a varying state tax pending where you live within that state?

    #72 10 months ago

    I'm curious to what everyone's thoughts are about what will happen with the pricing in the secondary market?

    DILE for example, was $9,000 NIB (with no sales tax). The rough estimate for resale currently is $8,000 give or take. If I bought DILE today NIB, it's going to be $9,675 (with a 7.5% sales tax).

    Does the NIB buyer eat the extra $675? Will a few hundred extra dollars be built into the resale price?

    It will be interesting to see how the secondary market evolves moving forward.

    #73 10 months ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    I'm curious to what everyone's thoughts are about what will happen with the pricing in the secondary market?
    DILE for example, was $9,000 NIB (with no sales tax). The rough estimate for resale currently is $8,000 give or take. If I bought DILE today NIB, it's going to be $9,675 (with a 7.5% sales tax).
    Does the NIB buyer eat the extra $675? Will a few hundred extra dollars be built into the resale price?
    It will be interesting to see how the secondary market evolves moving forward.

    Let me answer that by saying YES. In Canada people factor in the total price they paid. Some people don't include taxes but people generally do especially now that the prices have gone batshit crazy. Money is money after all. A DP pro is about $8300 tax in or $7350 without taxes in Ontario. I doubt people will want to give $1000 away.

    #74 10 months ago
    Quoted from flashinstinct:

    Wait you guys have different tax brackets within the state of Colorado as well. So Federal tax and then a varying state tax pending where you live within that state?

    The Colorado (CO) state sales tax rate is currently 2.9%. Depending on local municipalities, the total tax rate can be as high as 11.2%. Colorado is a “home rule” state. Local-level tax rates in the state of Colorado are quite complex compared against local-level tax rates in other states.

    #75 10 months ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    The Colorado (CO) state sales tax rate is currently 2.9%. Depending on local municipalities, the total tax rate can be as high as 11.2%. Colorado is a “home rule” state. Local-level tax rates in the state of Colorado are quite complex compared against local-level tax rates in other states.

    *mind blown*

    #76 10 months ago
    Quoted from Only_Pinball:

    What about Betson?

    Don’t know anything about them. I googled them and their headquarters are in nj, but am not sure of their business model.

    -7
    #77 10 months ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    The Colorado (CO) state sales tax rate is currently 2.9%. Depending on local municipalities, the total tax rate can be as high as 11.2%. Colorado is a “home rule” state. Local-level tax rates in the state of Colorado are quite complex compared against local-level tax rates in other states.

    Talk about a failed system. Who decides what section of the population pays more? Divided by zip codes?

    #78 10 months ago
    Quoted from flashinstinct:

    Wait you guys have different tax brackets within the state of Colorado as well. So Federal tax and then a varying state tax pending where you live within that state?

    Four states in the US have no sales tax. Every other state has a "baseline" sales tax (which is different than the taxes you pay to the state and federal government on your paycheck). Local counties and cities can add taxes to that "baseline" tax.

    For example, the lowest sales tax in Minnesota is 6.875%. In Minneapolis, it's just over 8%. That extra 1.2% tax is to help for other amenities in Minneapolis like roads, sports stadiums, and other local government programs.

    With that said, there are even more taxes on certain goods/items. Liquor gets taxed at an extra 2.5%, restaurants downtown charge an extra 3% on your food bill, hotel rooms get extra taxes, etc.

    12
    #79 10 months ago

    Another $500 or so on new pins for most people, this will hurt Sterns bottom line quick...not to mention JJP and Spooky (who’s margins are likely already smaller than Stern’s margins).

    #80 10 months ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    Four states in the US have no sales tax. Every other state has a "baseline" sales tax (which is different than the taxes you pay to the state and federal government on your paycheck). Local counties and cities can add taxes to that "baseline" tax.
    For example, the lowest sales tax in Minnesota is 6.875%. In Minneapolis, it's just over 8%. That extra 1.2% tax is to help for other amenities in Minneapolis like roads, sports stadiums, and other local government programs.
    With that said, there are even more taxes on certain goods/items. Liquor gets taxed at an extra 2.5%, restaurants downtown charge an extra 3% on your food bill, hotel rooms get extra taxes, etc.

    So If I get this right.
    Let's say I live in an area close to Minneapolis that only charges the baseline tax and someone from Minneapolis buys something from my online store. I would have to charge the baseline tax + the Minneapolis tax?

    #81 10 months ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    Talk about a failed system. Who decides what section of the population pays more? Divided by zip codes?

    You aren't kidding..... In some states like Wisconsin, it isn't just local municipalities either... On my tax bill, I have two State Colleges on my tax roll too. When our outgoing Governer took office, he "reduced" my state taxes. In turn, to make up for this move, the two State colleges on my tax bill jacked up their taxes to cover the State funding reduction. My tax bill went up $200 for the first year these State taxes were "reduced". I saved $19 on my state taxes those, so I have that going for me.

    #82 10 months ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    Talk about a failed system. Who decides what section of the population pays more? Divided by zip codes?

    It’s based on the county you live in and the city boundaries. For example the city of Denver vs the city of Littleton. I happen to live in unincorporated Douglas county so ours is lower because we don’t have a local city government to support. So my sales tax is based upon the state at 2.9% plus the county sales tax. Then there are other add-on’s. Such as RTD(our public transit system), if where you live is serviced by RTD there is an additional sales tax added on. Etc.

    For online sales you pay the tax based upon point of delivery, where you have the item shipped to....typically your home. Vs a brick and mortar purchase. If I drive to Best Buy in Denver I can expect to pay a lot more sales tax because of where they are located.

    For example Game Exchange is located in Denver. If I drive there and pickup my game I pay 7.5% sales tax. If I have them deliver it to my home I pay 4% sales tax.

    Correction: Apparently Denver’s total sales tax rate is now 8.31%

    #83 10 months ago
    Quoted from flashinstinct:

    So If I get this right.
    Let's say I live in an area close to Minneapolis that only charges the baseline tax and someone from Minneapolis buys something from my online store. I would have to charge the baseline tax + the Minneapolis tax?

    That's correct.

    And sadly, no, it's not based on zip code. You can have different sales taxes in the same zip code. This is why it will be a nightmare for small businesses. Why do you think Amazon was in favor of it now? They're established, and this will help prevent smaller companies from rising up to compete with them. If you want to support local business, you should be against this.

    And then some states charge different taxes based on what you buy - or charge nothing at all. In Minnesota, there's no taxes on clothing, for example. So a lot of people will drive here from Wisconsin (border state) to buy clothing, even though the rest of their sales tax is lower in Wisconsin.

    To get the list of all of the different sales taxes, you have to buy software and it costs quite a bit. At one of my first jobs, we received the sales tax updates on tape once a month, and I had to load it into our finance database monthly because they change more frequently than you'd think since there's thousands of different areas that have different rates.

    #84 10 months ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    It’s typically based on the county you live in and the the city boundaries. For example the city of Denver vs the city of Littleton. I happen to live in unincorporated Douglas county so ours is lower because we don’t have a local city government to support. So my sales tax is based upon the state at 2.9% plus the county sales tax. Then there are other add-on’s. Such as RTD(our public transit system), if where you live is serviced by RTD there is an additional sales tax added on. Etc.
    For online sales you pay the tax based upon point of delivery, where you have the item shipped to....typically your home. Vs a brick and mortar purchase. If I drive to Best Buy in Denver I can expect to pay a lot more sales tax because of where they are located.

    That sounds so flawed somehow. In Canada we have federal and provincial ("state") taxes. And slowly provinces "states" are combining their taxes with the federal government and charging a single tax. In Ontario we used to pay 8% (government) and 7% (provincial). Now we pay 13% which combines both taxes across the board, unless it is a non-taxable item like essential goods. If I buy an xbox in Ottawa at $299 + tax, I will pay the same price if I drive 8 hours down to Niagara Falls, if I buy it in the middle of nowhere in Ontario it will still be $299.99 + tax.

    The way you write this it makes it harder for a "Best Buy" to stay competitive with another "Best Buy" in a neighbouring town if they both don't charge the same taxes.

    No wonder you guys say that your taxes are complicated. *I've learned something new today*

    #85 10 months ago
    Quoted from Lermods:

    Don’t know anything about them. I googled them and their headquarters are in nj, but am not sure of their business model.

    They are one of the largest coin op distributors in the USA.

    #86 10 months ago

    Deleted: crossed the line from facts to politics

    #87 10 months ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    I'm curious to what everyone's thoughts are about what will happen with the pricing in the secondary market?

    As I mentioned in Post #49, I think that's one of the most interesting angles. In the Northeast FS thread, a lot of transactions go down between states like NH and RI. NH = 0% Tax. RI = 7% Tax. That means we're buying NIB at different prices, and the 2nd hand market will also certainly reflect it.

    When NH sellers go to sell a HUO game, target prices will be what attracts taxed states like RI, and may even mean NH sellers can charge $100 over NIB pricing while still offering a deal to RI buyers. Meanwhile any RI seller will try to pass the tax they paid to the next buyer and every NH person will laugh at the idea of paying $100-200 over our own NIB price. It shakes things up.

    #88 10 months ago

    I guess it boils down to a different point of view. I pay taxes for things happening all over my province for the betterment of all citizens that live in it. Same things goes for our healthcare. I pay taxes so that someone can get heart surgery, or an operation to get a donated kidney for free. If roles were switched I would appreciate the same if ever I needed healthcare help. I'm completely fine with that.

    #89 10 months ago
    Quoted from flashinstinct:

    I guess it boils down to a different point of view. I pay taxes for things happening all over my province for the betterment of all citizens that live in it. Same things goes for our healthcare. I pay taxes so that someone can get heart surgery, or an operation to get a donated kidney for free. If rolls were switched I would appreciate the same if ever I needed healthcare help. I'm completely fine with that.

    Yep yep, I get it. I deleted my post due to crossing the line from fact to politics. I appreciate all points of view.

    #90 10 months ago
    Quoted from flashinstinct:

    I guess it boils down to a different point of view. I pay taxes for things happening all over my province for the betterment of all citizens that live in it. Same things goes for our healthcare. I pay taxes so that someone can get heart surgery, or an operation to get a donated kidney for free. If rolls were switched I would appreciate the same if ever I needed healthcare help. I'm completely fine with that.

    I'm pretty sure we ALL pay taxes for the betterment of ALL citizens. Been that way for a LONG time.

    #91 10 months ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    I'm curious to what everyone's thoughts are about what will happen with the pricing in the secondary market?
    DILE for example, was $9,000 NIB (with no sales tax). The rough estimate for resale currently is $8,000 give or take. If I bought DILE today NIB, it's going to be $9,675 (with a 7.5% sales tax).
    Does the NIB buyer eat the extra $675? Will a few hundred extra dollars be built into the resale price?
    It will be interesting to see how the secondary market evolves moving forward.

    The new taxes will absolutely increase the value/price of private party pin sales on the secondary market.

    No different to the manufacturer increasing the prices of NIB pins which, in turn, reflects the prices of used pins, going forward. A price increase is a price increase. It doesn't matter the source of the increase.

    Of course, this will not apply to those who live in or near a state with no sales tax.

    #92 10 months ago
    Quoted from rogerdodger:

    The new taxes will absolutely increase the value/price of private party pin sales on the secondary market.
    Same effect as the manufacturer increasing the prices of NIB.
    Of course, this will not apply to those who live in or near a state with no sales tax.

    Did you know that you are supposed to pay sales tax on private party sales too? But again, hard to enforce.
    The only place I see it enforced is on private party vehicle sales, because when you register the vehicle you show a bill of sale that states the sale price and the DMV collects the sales tax. But, people cheat that system by asking the seller to lie about the sales price on the bill of sale.

    -10
    #93 10 months ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    I'm pretty sure we ALL pay taxes for the betterment of ALL citizens. Been that way for a LONG time.

    I dont know if I can agree with such a broad statement. As an outsider it doesn't always look that way

    #94 10 months ago
    Quoted from Lermods:

    This internet tax thing is a joke. If you buy something out of state, you the consumer technically are supposed to pay sales tax to your state. Under the new law, the out of state retailer is now supposed to collect the tax and pay it with your state. It’s going to be a headache for everyone. I think the limit for a retailer is 200 transactions or $100k in revenue in any state.
    It’s just a money grab by politicians, has little to do with competition. We have no pinball brick and mortar distros or even internet distros based in NJ. The main retailers affected are the big chain stores that were being hurt by Amazon, which now collects sales tax.

    This 100%

    #95 10 months ago
    Quoted from flashinstinct:

    So If I get this right.
    Let's say I live in an area close to Minneapolis that only charges the baseline tax and someone from Minneapolis buys something from my online store. I would have to charge the baseline tax + the Minneapolis tax?

    That I am not sure. I don't know if the tax law would be based on the baseline state tax on where your store is, or if you would have to charge me the tax to where I live .

    #96 10 months ago
    Quoted from Fezmid:

    The delivery companies are paying taxes that pay for the roads they use.

    You do realize roads would exist (and did exist) even without taxes right? Do you think that if a mcdonalds or walmart was there, and the roads were broken that brought consumers to their stores, that the stores would just sit there and go "what do we do?"
    mv4eVMY (resized).png

    #97 10 months ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    It’s based on the county you live in and the city boundaries. For example the city of Denver vs the city of Littleton. I happen to live in unincorporated Douglas county so ours is lower because we don’t have a local city government to support. So my sales tax is based upon the state at 2.9% plus the county sales tax. Then there are other add-on’s. Such as RTD(our public transit system), if where you live is serviced by RTD there is an additional sales tax added on. Etc.
    For online sales you pay the tax based upon point of delivery, where you have the item shipped to....typically your home. Vs a brick and mortar purchase. If I drive to Best Buy in Denver I can expect to pay a lot more sales tax because of where they are located.
    For example Game Exchange is located in Denver. If I drive there and pickup my game I pay 7.5% sales tax. If I have them deliver it to my home I pay 4% sales tax.
    Correction: Apparently Denver’s total sales tax rate is now 8.31%

    Where do property taxes factor into these expenses and services? Property tax money should be for your city services like bus transit, not local sales tax.

    #98 10 months ago

    I find this a very interesting read. Not only is it helping me understand the new tax laws, but I get a glimpse of other countries and how they handle taxes and how they perceive USA taxes. US citizens tend to complain about taxes because they are so complex. About the time you know what to pay, you are told there is some other added tax from some other entity. I don’t think anyone has a problem paying taxes here, it’s just so complex that you never know where you stand...and that gets frustrating.

    #99 10 months ago
    Quoted from TKDalumni:

    Wouldn’t this tax apply to ANY pinball sales out of state? Not just NIB...

    Ha, of course, but ever have a craigslist seller charge you sales tax?

    But looks like EBay pin prices will be even higher!

    -1
    #100 10 months ago
    Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

    If it were just 50 different tax rates for the 50 different states, it wouldn't be quite that bad. At least in MN, the tax rate can be different from county to county and also city to city. It's not just 50 tax rates you need to keep track of. It could literally be thousands.

    The laws aren't about collecting county and municipal taxes, they're only about state sales tax rates.

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