You must remember, at the fundamental level - the United States is a union of state governments - not one uniform government. For people used to one integrated federal system with simple levels of delegation to the more local level.. these 'why is it so different and complicated' scenarios seems to make no sense. And it's because it's not a federal tax - but a state vs state issue.

Person to person sales, yes it does get fudged. When from a dealer though, it gets put on the title.

Yes, that is what I meant. it's laughable to say that the state is "enforcing it prior to allowing a vehicle to be registered for use."

Well, I live in NH. Live free or die state. Unless it’s property taxes, prepared foods, and pinball.

Just those three I think.

More taxes suck and hurt the economy IMO when people have less to spend. This added sales tax will hurt some but not all. I'm more interested to see the reaction to the new federal tax codes where you can no longer deduct your state income tax and house mortgage. It is going to affect me by $3k vs last year. That and the new enforcement of sales tax is definitely going to affect my pin buying.

if you are subject to the AMT, you should be pleasantly surprised this year. you will forget about the SALT tax. Most people haven't figured this out yet.

Unfortunately I'm blessed and cursed at the same time. That is a big difference but still does nothing to help me personally. My tax guy ran last years return through the new laws and it would be a $3k hit on my end.

I think I need to work less and just enjoy the pins I already have and try to not be bothered by all this.

It's exactly what happens. The tax is collected when the car is registered - and the point illustrates its not just about sales from dealers or only new items. The use tax is applied to all transfers of ownership (minus some exceptions).

Under the threat of perjury, you disclose the private sale value, and tax is enforced on the new owner when the car is titled. Contrast with a retail sale, where the tax is collected by the selling agent.

Is that April date just for Colorado compliance in the various counties or is that when this matter will start impact retailers everywhere?

I’ll be interested to know if you see an impact in machines sales on Munsters once you start taking orders.

Depends on the state. In WA and I'm pretty sure CA will TELL you what your used car is worth if what you paid doesn't meet their minimum amount. This is regardless if you got a good deal, bought a project, was part of private trade, etc. Also in WA, our recent transportation expansion included a car registration increase based on the value of the vehicle, when it was new....not the accepted depreciation schedule value (by an agency with tax authority that was not elected). This level of nonsense is only possible because vehicles taxes and fees can be enforced at time of required registration. I believe I read that CA is now tracking shipping invoices so the same nonsense can apply to other goods. There is no morality in taxation.

Now back to the main topic. As a small business owner who builds little gizmos in my garage for the pleasure of other car enthusiasts, I can tell you the overhead of tracking 40ish different taxing scenarios is crippling. Thankfully for me personally I don't think I will trip any limits in other states. But I can sure as shit tell you that I will do everything I can to stay below the thresholds. My prediction for the NIB pinball market is that as a consumer you will see your out of pocket costs jump from 1) your distributor enforcing the new sales tax collection 2) raised costs to deal with the burden of tracking, collecting and submitting taxes to each state they are sold. You should also expect to see less availability as people just say eff it, not worth selling machines to CA or WA or wherever it sucks the most. Thankfully there is a good NW distributor in OR, so that may be a couple more scenic drives a year. That is until the put up boarder crossing checks for goods transfer....

One question I still have is if the state limits on business entities or on individual business owners? What would stop an owner from setting up several individuals businesses that would not trip the minimums?

A side comment on our friends to the north...I sell quite a bit of my gizmos across the boarder. I would say 90% of the time I get the request to misrepresent the value of the goods on the custom form because Canadian customs and VAT (I think that's what it is?) is too high. That always make me chuckle.

This is a good topic that all US citizens should pay attention to. Tell your friends, tell your neighbors.

Would George Washington pay an online sales tax?

goddamn that's funny. Thank you for that.

What's the April 1st date? Is that when this all goes into effect?

I've been wanting to get an Iron Maiden for a while but wont close on my house till Feb so can't buy till then. I fall into the bucket of once this takes place I'm out of NIB because I'm already on the boarder of fun vs value at current prices. Tack on another $500 and the scale tips and I'll go back to buying used games or nothing at all.

Also, this part not directed specifically at you but all distributors. How would this impact trade in's? Does anyone know if tax would only be paid on the difference (ala cars)? If so, it may change the resale market a bit as more people would be inclined to trade games in. I haven't as it was just to much of a difference before but this could tip that scale and make it a more reasonable solution for collectors.

April fools!

Also, this part not directed specifically at you but all distributors. How would this impact trade in's? Does anyone know if tax would only be paid on the difference (ala cars)? If so, it may change the resale market a bit as more people would be inclined to trade games in. I haven't as it was just to much of a difference before but this could tip that scale and make it a more reasonable solution for collectors.

From what I understand (and I am not a tax expert), this is exactly how it works. $6000 nib - $4000 trade in, leaves $2000 in taxable sales.

"When does it start" is even trickier than that. Each state can decide when tripping the threshold requires state registration and tax collection. In some cases it is based on previous year's sales. Some cases it applies to current year sales. Sometimes it applies to previous OR current. So just because a state starts official enforcement April1, it could take some time for a distributor to trigger the threshold. Then again, it could have already tripped from sales last year and would apply immediately.

It's also fun to note that currently 3 states have a much lower threshold for notice and report law for business. That means in OK, PA, and WA if a business sells less than 200 items but more than $10k gross they are required to either collect tax or report on you to your state. That means the state has a record of things you are not voluntarily reporting use tax on. These were in place before this recent SCOTUS decision. So be prepared for nasty-grams in the mail.

The trade-in scenario is also interesting. If you only pay cash on $1500 of a NIB sale regardless of what the actual value of the item is, you should only have $1500 worth of taxes collected. Now when that distributor sells your used game for $5k, the next buyer pays the sales tax on that item. That's how I see it working. Tax is collected either way, but only for the cash value paid. That's how I would expect it to work. Although you should never take tax advice from an engineer

I don't know the end result, Pinball machines will cost a bit more but people will still buy them. Might hurt sales but in the end higher costs won't kill the pinball industry.

Yup some states had reporting (but not collecting) as far back as 2017

That's why I find this misinformation being sent around as a 'new law for 2019!' so painful. It's a complex topic and it doesn't help anyone by spreading half truths.

As far as I’m concerned, my local, state, and federal government haven’t done a damn thing to earn any taxes from me in the last 20 years. I vote against every new tax, but I’m surrounded by morons out here in California.

I think we all just want to be able to enjoy the fruits of our labor. Taxes and prices for everything keeps going up, but the quality of life (and NIB pinball machines) keeps going down.

When you think about the amount of taxes included in the cost of every game, it is mind-boggling. The parts for every machine are produced by companies paying taxes. Stern/JJP/etc. include the cost of their taxes into the machines they sell. The shipping companies are paying corporate and gas taxes that are costing consumers in the end. Then you add sales tax, which is basically just giving the government money for doing absolutely nothing.

I see a lot of people complaining about Stern and the prices they charge for stripped down models. I’m sure that some of it is profit, but I bet a lot goes to pay for the fees, taxes, and permits that Stern needs to stay in business.

2 questions- you can PM me back if it makes sense.

1. Is WI one of the states - just checking for me?
2. Is that April 1st threshold annual, or April 2019 going forward? Does this reset annually?

Well you tried....so feel free to buy from me

So long a AZ has no economic nexus law, I'll be buying and selling NIBs for a fee.

So looking at this website, New York does not have a Economic Nexus law? Does that mean it is still up to the purchaser to pay the sales tax in their yearly taxes (if they claim the purchase)? If this is the case I am shocked NY is this way. NY squeezes everything it can out of its residents, maybe only second to California.

https://blog.taxjar.com/economic-nexus-laws/

Also if this is true, the people living in Albany will be busy buying pins for you residents in New England.

You so sure about that? My pin friends run the gambit from high end large scale collectors to working class with one or two EMs.

None are buying nib based on current prices. Used? That’s a different story for now.

I haven't read through the last pages of posts, but there has been some talking about wether this will affect the secondary market. Coming from Europe, I can tell you it WILL affect the secondary market.

Instead of thinking in price and tax I.e. 5000$ + 500$, people will instead consider that they spent 5500$ total price, and when they move to sell they will then base their asking price on those 5500$ and not the 5000$.

It might also drive up the price of the older pinball machines, as the newer ones increase in price, the demand might shift towards older versions thus eventually driving up the price.

This is based on my experience in Denmark, seeing that we pay 25% VAT, I have a good idea what that does to the price - Also in the secondhand market.

That's okay, from some of the posts here they are more than willing to pay that extra $500 gladly to help home and country, we'll just sell it to them. Maybe even just round it up to a nice $1000. Government can never have too much money.

I’m sure about it.

You think because a few people you know aren’t buying new pins that means no one is buying new pins?

I don’t know anyone buying a Beatles pin does that mean no one at all is buying one? People have said all the time “ new pins are too expensive look at LotR was $4K back in the day now $8K for a BM66 are you kidding me? “. People spend $15K on BM66 SLE.

LOL if you think no one will buy NIB pins because they cost a bit more.

There's a difference between 'no one' and 'fewer'.

I said people will still buy nib pins. Underlord asked if I was sure about that? what part was I wrong about?

Either I’m right and people will still buy nib pins or I’m wrong (and underlord is right) which means no one will buy nib pins any more.

You think a price hike will cause people to stop buying something?

Here is a link https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2018/10/04/pickup-truck-prices-vehicles/1455588002/

It says the average selling price of full size Pickup truck is $48K which up 48% from 10 years ago. Guess what full size PU trucks still sell in the millions of units. Some PU trucks can cost as much as $100K.

I’m sure it will be fewer, at least by one.

For many vehicles are considered a necessity. Pinball machines, not so much. The bigger point is that while people will exaggerate and say 'no one' what they really mean is fewer, and that could mean far fewer. It wouldn't take that many less sales to impact new production numbers.

I couldn't agree more!

That’s what I said. I said the tax will hurt sales. Underlord was the one implying that no one would buy NIB because his circle of friends are not buying anything new.

Plus if a truck is a necessity people can buy a used just like pinball. No one needs to buy a new truck or a new pinball machine. If you raise prices on new truck then people who can’t afford $48K will buy a used or a stripped new truck. Same with pinabll machines. Probably far more used pinball machines (and trucks) are sold every year but that doesn’t mean no one buys NIB.

This has been forever, if no one ever bought nib pins there would never be any used pins.

I’ve bought 14 pins in the last eight years 7 nib and 7 used. A sales tax won’t dictate to me what I can or can’t buy. That’s silly. If it’s another $700 whatever that’s what it costs. I’m not saying I won’t buy nib because of a tax. Maybe some people won’t but some will do whatever the hell they want.

Complaining about it on a forum won’t change anything.

Then you’re living in a fools paradise. Different end game now. Nib back then was affordable based on resale and value for your nib purchase. Look at lotr. I bought an LE in 2009, nib from Jersey Jack. $5800. I could easily purchase it.

My work has been steady, I’ve gotten lots of raises since then, but that same pin nib today? 9 grand? Nope. My paychecks haven’t gone up 40%!

Yes, my ‘few friends’ ARE the community. So are your friends, and so on. Without those folks here and there there is NO
market once they go away from nib. Don’t easily discount anyone anymore. I’m not arguing about your opinion, I’m arguing that the market is saturated already and prices are beyond tolerance.

My tolerance for return on fun/investment based on value. My friends with more money? They have even more common sense. They have other things to keep busy with.

Folks want a 12k CE pin? Go nuts. Good luck selling for even close to that after your bored. BM66 SLE? Played it. POTC CE? LE? I’ll wait for reality to hit them or easily just pass forever, no loss here.

Munsters LE for 9 grand? Not a friggen chance. Buy em all up, enjoy those node boards, soft pf’s and cabs seperating.

That's what we said when Pins hit 5k too... and when they hit 6k... and when they hit 7, etc etc

No ones complaining. Stating my opinion on my purchases, or lack of in this case.

Reasons for none purchase are based on my experience with Stern and selling high end restorations. Stern has a lot of QC to up third game on before I plunk down. JJP needs to lower those prices due to no real value based on CE or LE options.

Agreed, I’ve been reading it since RGP days. Skies falling, etc. but prices versus value is WAY out of whack in a short amount of time. Almost a cash grab every new pin. Hasn’t kept up with what is being put into the product .

But people seem to be still buying? Beatles pro for same cost as STLE.

rai Zablon

I think both of you guys make some great points.

Although I'm just one guy, with one opinion, I believe a decent chunk of the pinball community has the same sentiment as I do. I'll give you my example.

I have a strict three pin lineup: WOZ, AFMr LE and DILE. WOZ and AFMr are bolted for awhile. My third game, DILE (which I love BTW), is my rotational game. My plan was to rotate that game out every year, replacing it with a NIB, most likely with a JJP each time. Here's where the conundrum comes into play.

1. I'm already paying a hefty sum of $9,000 for a NIB pin. Resale value will typically be about 85%-90% of what you paid for it after a year (unless it's the Thunderbirds of course). It pains me to pay $9,000 in cash for a pin, let alone knowing I'm taking a 10%-15% hit a year later.

2. Now we add in the 6.825% sales tax (for Minnesota), and my all-in cost is $9600+ for a DILE if I purchased it in 2019. OUCH. At the price for any NIB, I'm probably out.

3. What happens in the resale market? Are folks going to pay $8500-$8700 for my DILE? Or is the expectation that it still should be around $8,000 and I need to eat that 6.825% sales tax? It will be interesting to see how the market changes, but to be frank, when #2 happens, I'm probably out on NIB and consistently buying as a 2nd owner.

4. Another point to make is competition. If I'm buying my DILE with sales tax, there are states around me that haven't implemented the nexus law, or they have a lower sales tax than Minnesota, that puts me at a huge disadvantage when selling my game. It gets even worse when I open up the purchase to anyone in the US. A seller in Oregon, New Hampshire, Montana, or Delaware can sell their DILE at a lower price than I ever could, forcing me to take on 100% of the sales tax I paid.

I hope that gives some insight to my thought process. Unless there is a second "holy grail" pin being created, I'm probably either A) hanging on to my NIB for a lot longer, or B) I'm on the sidelines waiting patiently in the secondary market.

Well AFM95 you'll have to slum it like the rest of us and drop down to Standard Editions.

That's my worst nightmare.

I guess I could start driving for Uber on the weekends...

At least us po’ Folk will have guud compny. Ayuk.

Again Rai, Flynnbus, you guys are great and as always provide insight different than my own. That cannot be taxed!

Going forward pretty much. Once you got a sales tax license you are pretty much stuck.

I don't think WI will hit 100k mark. I have a sheet that I made up a few months back let me see if I can find it.

I’m sure distributors like you will always do the best they can for us. Thank you for all of our crap you put up with.

People who buy nib and then sell in within a few years are really going to take a hit. No way they recoup that extra $500 they paid in taxes

Remember it’s a hobby. Most hobbies you loss most of your money but you create memories!

Same here, I am taking close to a $2000 loss living in NJ...Awesome....