A big question mark for millenials will be whether they have disposable income for things such as pinball. Right now that is doubtful.

I was a double digit collector in my 20s, but games were also less than half the price that they are now. In one day I got SM, AFM, and WCS all in excellent condition...all for about the price of just what SMVE goes for now. It's absolutely crazy what has happened with pricing.

Given the size of the Stern factory I think if they put out only 10 games a day they would go under.Stern has put there number several times at 50 games a day thats 12,000 games a yr and with 12 games still being made believable

As a millennial and someone who is usually ahead of the millennial trends, the draw to pinball is that it is more physical and less digital, which is a trend that is starting across the whole generation applicable to all things.

Playing from one Stern to the next doesn't just feel like playing the same game; it feels like playing the same boring game. And the just being the former is the firm feeling of, "hell, may as well just be playing redundant kick-off games on my phone."

JJP and Spooky games are fun. Williams games are fun. Gotlieb games are fun. Bally games are fun. Sega games are fun. Early Stern games are fun. Stern games from like 90 on are not fun.

Probably why I have no more than one at a time. That and I don't need a long line up of pricey monuments to pop culture I left behind a long time ago.

Gotta love Pinside and its commitment to quality discussion!

Pricing will not go down with new manufacturers, the pinball market is to small for that. (even with all the hype lately)
So what happens is that we have now so many more different machines hitting the streets, that a single model will no longer sell that well. And lower numbers of games per title, means higher cost per game.

seems like some good numbers.

thanks for the summary

Yes, thanks for that completely made-up breakdown of numbers that probably has no actual relevance to reality.

Stern doesn't release production numbers and neither does anybody else and there's no way of knowing if you can actually discern how many roll out of their factory with serial numbers.

Almost feels like their games are 100% theme, with no effort into gameplay. The only one I like is Tron: Legacy, and that's simply because of the theme being one of my favorite movies. Closest example I can think of is like Sterns are like Multimorphics P3: same game different graphics and sounds.

When I was your age I used to bitch about how shitty Stern games were and how I just wanted to play classics and 90s williams. Then I got over it and started enjoying them. You will too one day, sonny!

There's a certain charm and attention to detail that the 90s Williams game have that nobody is ever going to replicate. But once you accept that you'll realize that Stern puts out some perfectly awesome pinball machines.

I liked Tron when I had it. It was a fast fun game.

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I can't imagine anybody playing one game of Aerosmith and saying "wow that sucks balls and is just like every other Stern game. I'm gonna go play Twilight Zone for the 5000th time."

Nobody's buying it.

That's really not an appropriate argument. We're referring to generations. The start of my generation has seen nothing but the trend of more technology. We grew up surrounded by this. It's not appealing for the reasons I already listed, nor will it ever be. We've already beaten the digital knockoff horse dead.

I'd have to play it more. I'd probably have one at some point in time, just so I can deck half my game room out in Tron:Legacy memorabilia lol.

Stern understands the business realities of making pinball machines better than any of the other companies out there right now. The current resurgence in pinball is great, but also unsustainable and at some point market saturation and contraction are going to occur. Some of the companies won't make it, but I think Stern will be okay.

serial numbers are public knowledge and you just have to pay attention.

Some go through the effort of cross referencing can # to pf # and have put int effort to get decent production numbers.

What's with the dramatic title for a thread?
Oh my god! Run for your lives!

I'm pretty sure that the guys in the leagues I play in would rather play TZ for the 5000th time instead of Aerosmith.

After the 30th downvote, these kind of things are rather dogpile-ish. There should be plenty of room for all sorts of discussion on Pinside without the hivemind / echo chamber kicking in full force every time. Sheesh.

If 2017 is "the beginning of the end of Stern" it isn't because of competition... it's because of that Kardashians pic

To use the cargument, for me trying to decide which new Stern to buy is like going back to the 80s and trying to decide which K car to buy.

But no matter how much they bitch and moan they still whip out their wallets when the right 50 year old theme comes out.

If you want a new game to play, that's what you have to do. Right theme or not.

With Batman I got the "deluxe" K car.

The first time I played Aerosmith it felt like I had played it already though. The samey nature of the designs (particularly Borg's designs) are making it much harder to justify the cost of entry. Aerosmith is a literal remix of Borg's games with nothing new brought to the table. Not a bad game, but I honestly felt like I had played it many times before right from the get go. So if the new games are going to feel run of the mill, might as well lean on the classics at half the cost.

Back on topic I don't think Stern is going anywhere due to AFMR.

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I had a K car that my Dad gave me for college. I freakin loved that car, it had a really plush burgundy interior and drove like a Cadillac. I sold it to buy a Honda Civic, I regret selling my low miles K car. Oh the memories

Is that picture posted earlier in this thread with Stern Army a picture with Kourtney Kardashian? Looks just like her, including the mom jeans she is wearing.

Ok back on topic- Stern is on fire right now and the only way they would go under is if the economy took a shit and we move towards a recession.

I had a K car wagon in the late 90s with very low miles somebody gave me for fixing their other car. Fake wood sides and everything. The motor was locked up so I replaced it. That Mitsubishi 2.6 was a pain in the ass.

50 games a day is what they said they were capable of doing. The data does not back up them actually doing 50 a day for a full year.

That is not consistent with what JJP and some insiders that had worked at Stern have said about production numbers.

This is a text between me and my best friend. His son is 8 or so. This is the way I see the trend going for the generation that is becoming of market age. Previous two generations started and secured going from physical to virtual. Current is going the opposite way. Games such as pinball, Top Golf, Pokemon Go, etc. are actually Millenials going from virtual, to the in-between level of virtual/physical, and then more to physical. Kinda a balancing of physical/immaterial over half a century of generations.

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Now that is the type of attitude Stern wants for their Stern Army! Average code support with 6+ months in between updates (or never)? Who cares. Fixes being implemented by customers instead of at the factory? Yes, sounds like fun. More price increases with less being offered? Yes please

For $5k to now $15k customers should expect more and for quality to not match but exceed that of Williams games made over 20 years ago.

To invoke sainted Williams again...anybody who played the Lawlor games of the 90s felt the same way. Didn't mean the games didn't have their own unique charms despite the overall familiarity of the rulesets and layouts. Steve Ritchie has been "remixing" himself for decades but the games are still great.

Any old timer will be more than happy to go on (and on and on and on - that's what old people do) about the many quality issues some Williams games had right out of the box in the 1990s. You realize within a couple weeks of TZs being on location, people were drilling holes in the clock, right? Ever heard of "sticky flipper" syndrome on late 90s flipper opto interupters? How about the terrible drop target and flipper mechs on one of the best selling games of all time, Flash? When was the last time you had to repair a burnt GI circuit on a Stern game? These were cooking on the reg in the 1990s on W/B every game on location. We've had decades now to sort out those issues, so it's easy to forget that NIB games needing attention is a long-standing tradition in pinball.

It's pinball, it happens, just like the numerous issues JJP games have had during the birthing process. Bad light boards, poorly welded ramps, non-working trolls, excessive playfield wear...For $9000 people should expect better, right?

The OP is missing the real reason for the beginning of the end for Stern.

They are running out of hair bands to theme machines after.

OK now that's straight up bullshit!!! Stern has never done a hair band theme. And the day they do a Poison game I will officially write them off forever!

If anything, more competition is better for all of us. Stern seems to have the "licensing" area cornered, but I'd love CGC to knock out the top ten list if possible. I'd love to get a NIB TOTAN. Also, this might make QC go up for Stern, at least I can hope.

Seems like it's definitely over. After they build the 12 Aerosmiths that got ordered they will probably just board up the doors

Oh, come on. I know you're waiting for the Twisted Sister LE.

Since they have done AC/DC and Metallica, you know it's coming.

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Apropos.

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Agreed! That pic is like getting a stock tip from an elevator attendant or whatever.

A JJP fan started a Stern price thread they did the math and came up with this. between 2010 and 2017 there has been a 29% increase in price = 4.14% a year but quite variable over the individual years. Can you say jack price increase are less and he has been cutting features all the while game 2 & 3 do not hold a candle to game 1

Wiz 75th is awesome. Hobbit wasn't as good as it, but still much better than Stern games. Dialed In I watched people play for about 30 minutes and it seemed really fun. They all play way the he'll differently, though. WoZ is my preferred playstyle, but Dialed In reminded me of Junk Yard, which is also a very fun style to me. Are you sure you aren't just similar and confusing your own playstyle preference for quality?

I have not been seriously interested in a JJP game yet. I mean they are nice to look at and built like tanks but so far have not done much for me.

WOZ...meh, I understand it's very popular but it just never clicked with me.
Hobbit....this one I actually like the best. Thought it was really fun to play. The problem.....to easy to be a home purchase (for me).
DI - Okay I admit I'm a bit of a theme snob and this one does nothing for me. It's another game I hope one of my friends buy so I can play it from time to time. It looks like it "plays" nice but I don't like the theme, I don't like the look, I don't like the sounds and I don't like the price.

Let's wait until CGC put games in boxes and ships them to people... BEFORE we summarize that they will destroy Stern.

Great. Stern can de-content their games further and say it is for the war effort!

Thread is kinda silly. Stern is the only company that reliably puts out new games on a regular basis. They can't all be hits.

Don't know what I would do wo my Met Premium!! I play it more than my MMr and I love both of them.

I am glad Stern has competition at the high end though, keeps'em working hard for that high margin money.

Here is a question you can ask yourself to fact check your feelings on Stern's future:

If you could have the profits from any pinball company in the world for the next 10 years, who would you choose?

People say this about the build but I do not see the quality. Most of the time when I encounter a jjp game in the wild it is broken.

Maybe I've just had a string of bad encounters and I'm sure people work out the kinks at home, but they've been broken or had big chunks of the art chipped off more often than not on route.

Not me. I'll take any old theme they throw at me as long as it helps keep pinball alive. My wants are secondary to the overall good of the pinball hobby and community.