(Topic ID: 185260)

2017. The beginning of the end for Stern...April 1st is over.


By Luckydogg420

2 years ago



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    There are 303 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 7.
    #101 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    No they don't.
    Today's millenial is tomorrow's old white guy. Not too many people here had big collections of pinball machines in their 20s (except me of course).

    A big question mark for millenials will be whether they have disposable income for things such as pinball. Right now that is doubtful.

    #102 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    No they don't.
    Today's millenial is tomorrow's old white guy. Not too many people here had big collections of pinball machines in their 20s (except me of course).

    I was a double digit collector in my 20s, but games were also less than half the price that they are now. In one day I got SM, AFM, and WCS all in excellent condition...all for about the price of just what SMVE goes for now. It's absolutely crazy what has happened with pricing.

    #103 2 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    The last time I looked at serial numbers, Stern was doing around 5000 Stern games a year. CGC seems to be doing about 500 to 1000 a year. Heighway likely has done about 100 a year for the last two years. Spooky maybe around 250 a year. JJp has probably done about 3500 WOZ (from 2013 to now) and somewhere in the ballpark of 2000 Hobbit which adds up to probably about 1000 to 2000 per year over the last two years.
    With those ballpark figures, Stern is likely in the 55 to 65% of the new pinball market range.

    Given the size of the Stern factory I think if they put out only 10 games a day they would go under.Stern has put there number several times at 50 games a day thats 12,000 games a yr and with 12 games still being made believable

    -13
    #104 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Even some pre Gen xrs are starting to notice the staleness of licensed themes from the last century.

    As a millennial and someone who is usually ahead of the millennial trends, the draw to pinball is that it is more physical and less digital, which is a trend that is starting across the whole generation applicable to all things.

    Playing from one Stern to the next doesn't just feel like playing the same game; it feels like playing the same boring game. And the just being the former is the firm feeling of, "hell, may as well just be playing redundant kick-off games on my phone."

    JJP and Spooky games are fun. Williams games are fun. Gotlieb games are fun. Bally games are fun. Sega games are fun. Early Stern games are fun. Stern games from like 90 on are not fun.

    #105 2 years ago
    Quoted from Jeremy8419:

    Playing from one Stern to the next doesn't just feel like playing the same game;

    Probably why I have no more than one at a time. That and I don't need a long line up of pricey monuments to pop culture I left behind a long time ago.

    #106 2 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    The downvotes aren't because of ruffled feathers it's just the ridiculous nature of the argument

    Gotta love Pinside and its commitment to quality discussion!

    #107 2 years ago

    Pricing will not go down with new manufacturers, the pinball market is to small for that. (even with all the hype lately)
    So what happens is that we have now so many more different machines hitting the streets, that a single model will no longer sell that well. And lower numbers of games per title, means higher cost per game.

    -1
    #108 2 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    The last time I looked at serial numbers, Stern was doing around 5000 Stern games a year. CGC seems to be doing about 500 to 1000 a year. Heighway likely has done about 100 a year for the last two years. Spooky maybe around 250 a year. JJP has probably done about 3500 WOZ (from 2013 to now) and somewhere in the ballpark of 2000 Hobbit (over the last two years) which adds up to probably about 1000 to 2000 per year over the last two years.
    With those ballpark figures, Stern is likely in the 55 to 65% of the new pinball market range.

    seems like some good numbers.

    thanks for the summary

    #109 2 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    seems like some good numbers.
    thanks for the summary

    Yes, thanks for that completely made-up breakdown of numbers that probably has no actual relevance to reality.

    Stern doesn't release production numbers and neither does anybody else and there's no way of knowing if you can actually discern how many roll out of their factory with serial numbers.

    -1
    #110 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Probably why I have no more than one at a time. That and I don't need a long line up of pricey monuments to pop culture I left behind a long time ago.

    Almost feels like their games are 100% theme, with no effort into gameplay. The only one I like is Tron: Legacy, and that's simply because of the theme being one of my favorite movies. Closest example I can think of is like Sterns are like Multimorphics P3: same game different graphics and sounds.

    #111 2 years ago
    Quoted from Jeremy8419:

    Almost feels like their games are 100% theme, with no effort into gameplay. The only one I like is Tron: Legacy, and that's simply because of the theme being one of my favorite movies. Closest example I can think of is like Sterns are like Multimorphics P3: same game different graphics and sounds.

    When I was your age I used to bitch about how shitty Stern games were and how I just wanted to play classics and 90s williams. Then I got over it and started enjoying them. You will too one day, sonny!

    There's a certain charm and attention to detail that the 90s Williams game have that nobody is ever going to replicate. But once you accept that you'll realize that Stern puts out some perfectly awesome pinball machines.

    #112 2 years ago
    Quoted from Jeremy8419:

    The only one I like is Tron: Legacy, and that's simply because of the theme being one of my favorite movies.

    I liked Tron when I had it. It was a fast fun game.

    #113 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    When I was your age I used to bitch about how shitty Stern games were and how I just wanted to play classics and 90s williams. Then I got over it and started enjoying them. You will too one day, sonny!

    th (resized).jpg

    13
    #114 2 years ago

    I can't imagine anybody playing one game of Aerosmith and saying "wow that sucks balls and is just like every other Stern game. I'm gonna go play Twilight Zone for the 5000th time."

    Nobody's buying it.

    #115 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    When I was your age I used to bitch about how shitty Stern games were and how I just wanted to play classics and 90s williams. Then I got over it and started enjoying them. You will too one day, sonny!
    There's a certain charm and attention to detail that the 90s Williams game have that nobody is ever going to replicate. But once you accept that you'll realize that Stern puts out some perfectly awesome pinball machines.

    That's really not an appropriate argument. We're referring to generations. The start of my generation has seen nothing but the trend of more technology. We grew up surrounded by this. It's not appealing for the reasons I already listed, nor will it ever be. We've already beaten the digital knockoff horse dead.

    #116 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    I liked Tron when I had it. It was a fast fun game.

    I'd have to play it more. I'd probably have one at some point in time, just so I can deck half my game room out in Tron:Legacy memorabilia lol.

    #117 2 years ago

    Stern understands the business realities of making pinball machines better than any of the other companies out there right now. The current resurgence in pinball is great, but also unsustainable and at some point market saturation and contraction are going to occur. Some of the companies won't make it, but I think Stern will be okay.

    #118 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Yes, thanks for that completely made-up breakdown of numbers that probably has no actual relevance to reality.

    serial numbers are public knowledge and you just have to pay attention.

    Some go through the effort of cross referencing can # to pf # and have put int effort to get decent production numbers.

    -2
    #119 2 years ago

    What's with the dramatic title for a thread?
    Oh my god! Run for your lives!

    #120 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I can't imagine anybody playing one game of Aerosmith and saying "wow that sucks balls and is just like every other Stern game. I'm gonna go play Twilight Zone for the 5000th time."
    Nobody's buying it.

    I'm pretty sure that the guys in the leagues I play in would rather play TZ for the 5000th time instead of Aerosmith.

    Quoted from kklank:

    What's with the dramatic title for a thread?
    Oh my god! Run for your lives!

    After the 30th downvote, these kind of things are rather dogpile-ish. There should be plenty of room for all sorts of discussion on Pinside without the hivemind / echo chamber kicking in full force every time. Sheesh.

    #121 2 years ago

    If 2017 is "the beginning of the end of Stern" it isn't because of competition... it's because of that Kardashians pic

    #122 2 years ago

    To use the cargument, for me trying to decide which new Stern to buy is like going back to the 80s and trying to decide which K car to buy.

    #123 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Even some pre Gen Xrs are starting to notice the staleness of licensed themes from the last century.

    But no matter how much they bitch and moan they still whip out their wallets when the right 50 year old theme comes out.

    #124 2 years ago
    Quoted from pinballkim:

    But no matter how much they bitch and moan they still whip out their wallets when the right 50 year old theme comes out.

    If you want a new game to play, that's what you have to do. Right theme or not.

    With Batman I got the "deluxe" K car.

    #125 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I can't imagine anybody playing one game of Aerosmith and saying "wow that sucks balls and is just like every other Stern game. I'm gonna go play Twilight Zone for the 5000th time."
    Nobody's buying it.

    The first time I played Aerosmith it felt like I had played it already though. The samey nature of the designs (particularly Borg's designs) are making it much harder to justify the cost of entry. Aerosmith is a literal remix of Borg's games with nothing new brought to the table. Not a bad game, but I honestly felt like I had played it many times before right from the get go. So if the new games are going to feel run of the mill, might as well lean on the classics at half the cost.

    #126 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    With Batman I got the "deluxe" K car.

    Back on topic I don't think Stern is going anywhere due to AFMR.

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    #127 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    is like going back to the 80s and trying to decide which K car to buy.

    I had a K car that my Dad gave me for college. I freakin loved that car, it had a really plush burgundy interior and drove like a Cadillac. I sold it to buy a Honda Civic, I regret selling my low miles K car. Oh the memories

    Is that picture posted earlier in this thread with Stern Army a picture with Kourtney Kardashian? Looks just like her, including the mom jeans she is wearing.

    Ok back on topic- Stern is on fire right now and the only way they would go under is if the economy took a shit and we move towards a recession.

    #128 2 years ago
    Quoted from pinmister:

    I regret selling my low miles K car. Oh the memories

    I had a K car wagon in the late 90s with very low miles somebody gave me for fixing their other car. Fake wood sides and everything. The motor was locked up so I replaced it. That Mitsubishi 2.6 was a pain in the ass.

    #129 2 years ago
    Quoted from JY64:

    Given the size of the Stern factory I think if they put out only 10 games a day they would go under.Stern has put there number several times at 50 games a day thats 12,000 games a yr and with 12 games still being made believable

    50 games a day is what they said they were capable of doing. The data does not back up them actually doing 50 a day for a full year.

    #130 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Stern doesn't release production numbers and neither does anybody else and there's no way of knowing if you can actually discern how many roll out of their factory with serial numbers.

    That is not consistent with what JJP and some insiders that had worked at Stern have said about production numbers.

    #131 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    To use the cargument, for me trying to decide which new Stern to buy is like going back to the 80s and trying to decide which K car to buy.

    This is a text between me and my best friend. His son is 8 or so. This is the way I see the trend going for the generation that is becoming of market age. Previous two generations started and secured going from physical to virtual. Current is going the opposite way. Games such as pinball, Top Golf, Pokemon Go, etc. are actually Millenials going from virtual, to the in-between level of virtual/physical, and then more to physical. Kinda a balancing of physical/immaterial over half a century of generations.

    Screenshot_20170331-153314 (resized).jpg

    #132 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    When I was your age I used to bitch about how shitty Stern games were and how I just wanted to play classics and 90s williams. Then I got over it and started enjoying them. You will too one day, sonny!
    There's a certain charm and attention to detail that the 90s Williams game have that nobody is ever going to replicate. But once you accept that you'll realize that Stern puts out some perfectly awesome pinball machines.

    Now that is the type of attitude Stern wants for their Stern Army! Average code support with 6+ months in between updates (or never)? Who cares. Fixes being implemented by customers instead of at the factory? Yes, sounds like fun. More price increases with less being offered? Yes please

    For $5k to now $15k customers should expect more and for quality to not match but exceed that of Williams games made over 20 years ago.

    #133 2 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    The first time I played Aerosmith it felt like I had played it already though. The samey nature of the designs (particularly Borg's designs) are making it much harder to justify the cost of entry. Aerosmith is a literal remix of Borg's games with nothing new brought to the table.

    To invoke sainted Williams again...anybody who played the Lawlor games of the 90s felt the same way. Didn't mean the games didn't have their own unique charms despite the overall familiarity of the rulesets and layouts. Steve Ritchie has been "remixing" himself for decades but the games are still great.

    #134 2 years ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    For $5k to now $15k customers should expect more and for quality to not match but exceed that of Williams games made over 20 years ago.

    Any old timer will be more than happy to go on (and on and on and on - that's what old people do) about the many quality issues some Williams games had right out of the box in the 1990s. You realize within a couple weeks of TZs being on location, people were drilling holes in the clock, right? Ever heard of "sticky flipper" syndrome on late 90s flipper opto interupters? How about the terrible drop target and flipper mechs on one of the best selling games of all time, Flash? When was the last time you had to repair a burnt GI circuit on a Stern game? These were cooking on the reg in the 1990s on W/B every game on location. We've had decades now to sort out those issues, so it's easy to forget that NIB games needing attention is a long-standing tradition in pinball.

    It's pinball, it happens, just like the numerous issues JJP games have had during the birthing process. Bad light boards, poorly welded ramps, non-working trolls, excessive playfield wear...For $9000 people should expect better, right?

    #135 2 years ago

    The OP is missing the real reason for the beginning of the end for Stern.

    They are running out of hair bands to theme machines after.

    #136 2 years ago
    Quoted from Firebaall:

    The OP is missing the real reason for the beginning of the end for Stern.
    They are running out of hair bands to theme machines after.

    OK now that's straight up bullshit!!! Stern has never done a hair band theme. And the day they do a Poison game I will officially write them off forever!

    #137 2 years ago

    If anything, more competition is better for all of us. Stern seems to have the "licensing" area cornered, but I'd love CGC to knock out the top ten list if possible. I'd love to get a NIB TOTAN. Also, this might make QC go up for Stern, at least I can hope.

    #138 2 years ago

    Seems like it's definitely over. After they build the 12 Aerosmiths that got ordered they will probably just board up the doors

    #139 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    OK now that's straight up bullshit!!! Stern has never done a hair band theme. And the day they do a Poison game I will officially write them off forever!

    Oh, come on. I know you're waiting for the Twisted Sister LE.

    #140 2 years ago

    Since they have done AC/DC and Metallica, you know it's coming.

    Stewart (resized).jpg

    #141 2 years ago

    Apropos.

    1295783 (resized).jpg

    #142 2 years ago
    Quoted from chadderack:

    If 2017 is "the beginning of the end of Stern" it isn't because of competition... it's because of that Kardashians pic

    Agreed! That pic is like getting a stock tip from an elevator attendant or whatever.

    -1
    #143 2 years ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    Now that is the type of attitude Stern wants for their Stern Army! Average code support with 6+ months in between updates (or never)? Who cares. Fixes being implemented by customers instead of at the factory? Yes, sounds like fun. More price increases with less being offered? Yes please
    For $5k to now $15k customers should expect more and for quality to not match but exceed that of Williams games made over 20 years ago.

    A JJP fan started a Stern price thread they did the math and came up with this. between 2010 and 2017 there has been a 29% increase in price = 4.14% a year but quite variable over the individual years. Can you say jack price increase are less and he has been cutting features all the while game 2 & 3 do not hold a candle to game 1

    #144 2 years ago
    Quoted from JY64:

    A JJP fan started a Stern price thread they did the math and came up with this. between 2010 and 2017 there has been a 29% increase in price = 4.14% a year but quite variable over the individual years. Can you say jack price increase are less and he has been cutting features all the while game 2 & 3 do not hold a candle to game 1

    Wiz 75th is awesome. Hobbit wasn't as good as it, but still much better than Stern games. Dialed In I watched people play for about 30 minutes and it seemed really fun. They all play way the he'll differently, though. WoZ is my preferred playstyle, but Dialed In reminded me of Junk Yard, which is also a very fun style to me. Are you sure you aren't just similar and confusing your own playstyle preference for quality?

    #145 2 years ago

    I have not been seriously interested in a JJP game yet. I mean they are nice to look at and built like tanks but so far have not done much for me.

    WOZ...meh, I understand it's very popular but it just never clicked with me.
    Hobbit....this one I actually like the best. Thought it was really fun to play. The problem.....to easy to be a home purchase (for me).
    DI - Okay I admit I'm a bit of a theme snob and this one does nothing for me. It's another game I hope one of my friends buy so I can play it from time to time. It looks like it "plays" nice but I don't like the theme, I don't like the look, I don't like the sounds and I don't like the price.

    #146 2 years ago

    Let's wait until CGC put games in boxes and ships them to people... BEFORE we summarize that they will destroy Stern.

    #147 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rum-Z:

    Stern Army, call to arms!!!! Assemble defensive positions!!!!

    Great. Stern can de-content their games further and say it is for the war effort!

    #148 2 years ago

    Thread is kinda silly. Stern is the only company that reliably puts out new games on a regular basis. They can't all be hits.

    Don't know what I would do wo my Met Premium!! I play it more than my MMr and I love both of them.

    I am glad Stern has competition at the high end though, keeps'em working hard for that high margin money.

    Here is a question you can ask yourself to fact check your feelings on Stern's future:

    If you could have the profits from any pinball company in the world for the next 10 years, who would you choose?

    #149 2 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    I have not been seriously interested in a JJP game yet. I mean they are nice to look at and built like tanks but so far have not done much for me.

    People say this about the build but I do not see the quality. Most of the time when I encounter a jjp game in the wild it is broken.

    Maybe I've just had a string of bad encounters and I'm sure people work out the kinks at home, but they've been broken or had big chunks of the art chipped off more often than not on route.

    #150 2 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    I admit I'm a bit of a theme snob

    Not me. I'll take any old theme they throw at me as long as it helps keep pinball alive. My wants are secondary to the overall good of the pinball hobby and community.

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