Why should anyone care if people prepay? It's their money and their choice to roll the dice. Might crap out might not. Just don't see what the fuss is all about.

If you don't want to prepay -no problem
If you don't want me to prepay - problem

Pre paying got me the game for $1000 less and helped the company exist. So I am fine pre paying and would like to do it on every JJP game. But that's just me. I don't mind the wait.

Meh... I agree people can spend their money the way they like....
I feel the same away about people that obsess over playing Lotto....

The issue I was responding to was this sense of arrogance by some who throw a hissy fit if a nonbeliever, er, non-prepayer wants to get involved in the discussion about a game....

But I agree with your point, its your money.
I personally think pre-paying for game 2 and beyond is counterproductive- thats just my opinion.
Others think Im an asshole- I accept that as just as valid an opinion

Pre paying and then being okay with someone who did NOT pre pay getting their game before them - no problem

Pre paying and then bitching when someone who did NOT pre pay gets their game before them - problem

Speak it! Agreed 100%.

So should dealers hold onto their extra games till all single buyers get their game?

Prepaying for WOZ saved me about $1,500. For Hobbit probably $800 so far. While waiting 3 to 4 years is a major pain it's a little like Christmas but where the date keeps moving. It's certainly not for everybody but for some it's a nice option.

I dont regret prepaying for TH. Its a good game and I'm looking forward to it arriving.

Don't have a problem with people who are against prepaying as long as they stop telling the ones who did that we are stupid.

You're not really saving though if you had invested that money wisely over those 3 years.

no one is stupid for prepaying. It saved you thousands of dollars off the current msrp. It's the best investment you could have made over the past few years. Maybe one day you'll get to play your investment.

I am really excited to get mine when it comes and never considered it an investment...More of a no interest loan to JJP with the hope of a payout. If I lost all the money, I would not of lost sleep. Its a lot better odds than the lottery and since I don't play the lottery, it was my pinball gamble.

I made 29% return on my TD account US stocks last year alone, non rsp's. People are smokin' dope if they think the hobbit prepay saved them money.

That's the best description of prepay I've seen....

Any sentence that has "pinball" and "investment" in it is begging for disappointment.

I hope you get your game soon, and more importantly, I hope it plays as good as it looks!

It does play as good as it looks.

It sure does.

I did very well as a kid investing the pinball company Bally Manufacturing Corporation when it became newly listed on the NYSE. Also Seeburg Industries for Williams pinball. Also bought Columbia Pictures when they bought Gottlieb making it public. Although I lost my ass on that one. Those Hollywood types were professional thieves.

Bally 's price grew thanks to their conversion to Solid State electronics for both pins and slots. Then, Space Invaders and Pac Man took it through the roof.

Interesting, how so?

It definitely could have saved some people money man! Some may have just put the cash in their pipe and smoked it if not for it being tied up in the prepay you know?

OK, here goes:

I get the attraction of asking for prepayment for JJP #1. I still challenge the narrative that "it was the ONLY way" to fund the project, but that aside, I get the desire (on both sides) for JJP #1:
JJP needed to develop a completely new platform and build a factory from scratch.... big undertaking.

Funding and building WoZ should have accomplished that and been enough of a proof-of-concept that JJP #2 would be less of an unknown. Platform was developed, factory built, lessons learned, etc. Taking multi-year prepayment for TH was a different story. There wasn't this great story to tell about "helping to launch a new pinball company"....

Why the need for prepayment AGAIN? Well, one disturbing theory is this:
JJP didn't have the funds to build the machines it has pre-sold. So, prepayment on TH was diverted to cover completing WoZ. Yes, this is conjecture, but I think there were signs to support this (vendors not getting paid, JJP seemingly unable to inventory parts efficiently, breaking promises and shipping new orders ahead of old ones, etc). This scheme obviously can't go on forever and eventually "stealing from Peter to pay Paul" would catch up unless....... yes, cash infusion from outside investment.

Yes, I think this quickly turns into a bad scenario for pinball. Why? Well, we may have been one last-minute cash infusion away from a repeat of the other boutique failures.... But beyond that, it sets this bad precedent of over-promising and under-delivering. When the manufacturer has all (or most) of the revenue already in hand, one of the biggest incentives for delivering a high quality product (in a timely manner) goes out the window. To repeat, this is not solely a JJP issue, it goes for Stern as well!

The "JJP effect", while having given pinball a very cool, innovative machine has also driven price points up and re-verified the appetite to pay years before delivery....

Answer honestly:
If Jack had gone to the bank for a loan (or dispassionate investors) to fund TH, do you think it would still be a year (and counting) late? I'd say "no."

Anyways, lots of opinion and conjecture there, but you asked....

Fair to say WoZ was a great success, eventually.
I just feel THAT should have been the milestone to wean JJP off the prepayment model. Instead, all the risk is AGAIN sitting with the prepayers and the issue is exacerbated with Jack's continued rocky relationship with the truth when it comes to production.

All these business experts, it's pretty impressive...

I'm still patiently waiting for one to show up in this thread.

Or at one of the boutique pinball companies....

Wow! You've definitely made your argument loud and clear. Now that it's done hope you can move on to other issues. Pretty sure you've covered your bases on this.

Just curious with the latest code on the Hobbit, does the third flipper serve more of a purpose now?

Nope.

Does anyone know if there is an official owners google group for the TH yet? I wonder if ordering from a distributor would qualify one to join?

Does the upper flipper on WOZ have any function? I just bash the balls with the lower flippers and defend the hole.

Good post from lowenpeg above, but as an early prepayer I have had all those thoughts and more. It's not rocket science. I still chose to keep going however, and as much as people keep saying its bad and not good, I really don't care. It's my money and I chose to roll the dice. I don't spend money at casinos gambling, I don't drink or smoke, so this is my way of blowing some disposable income. It's this or the stock market. I think so far the odds are in my favor. So, thanks everyone for your concern for those that prepay, and some have been burned in the prepay model from other manufacturers. I applaud them for trying to get other manufacturers up and running. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. In this case, pins look to be on the line. JJP #3 is probably going to happen. Paying up front is not for the faint of heart.

You need to follow pinball keefers explanation here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/2015-hobbit-update-thread/page/35#post-2866362

There is only one JJP google group, it is the WOZ owners group. It will likely remain the only group and cover all games. Contact Jen at JJP to get an invite.

February next week and still no firm date for shipping. You would think a date would be given if one was known? And palatable......

I'm not trying to be negative as I am in on TH but JJP has yet to meet any dates whether it be with WoZ or TH so what good would it do to have them give a date for shipping?

I GOT MY HOBBIT!!!!! (pictures that is....)
Had a movie poster framed and picked it up last night.
If I were to do it again I'd get the non glare glass. Sits right across from a window.

Hobbit_010_(resized).JPG

Hobbit_011_(resized).JPG

Unfortunately it seems that is where JJP is at right now. Low on the money needed to finish the game. I guess the investor either backed out or the money is spent already. No I don't have any inside knowledge and this is all speculation, however the evidence is there. Game specific parts for the Hobbit, just being delivered months ago. You can't tell me, it took years to make the Smaug head. There had to be something holding it up. Not sure what else could cause that kind of delay at this point. Then there is the pictures. Jack has always made sure to get a close up of the apron to show who's machine is who's when manufacturing, however, all we see is a mystical row of Hobbits but no close up of the apron. That leads me to believe those were test machines only which should have been built a long time ago. I think Jack needs to bring back weekly updates or at least be honest and tell people when there is no updates. That would stop a lot of speculation from people like myself and the other "trolls". If he came on here and gave some sort of explanation what is going on, that may calm the waters some. My patience is running out and I didn't even order a game. I feel for everyone who is waiting. I also am jealous that I wished I was in a financial state like that one poster who said if they loose $8,000 they are not going to loose sleep over it. Wished I had money to throw around like that. Guess that's why they say pinball is a richmans hobby

Yeah... that ended up into "rant territory".... but you asked!

Im happy to move aside and make way for TH updates.....

Bueller?

Bueller?

Hoping the next "update" is machines out the door (rather than subassembly pictures)

I don't know about rich, but new machines are definitely not for poor people.

Doesn't take a MBA to recognize a Ponzi scheme!

shit 55 new posts since last on and just more hot air

shit 56 new posts since last on and just more hot air

At this point if you wait on seeing updates in the Hobbit update thread, please look elsewhere. As until Jack actually makes a legitimate update, people will speculate and post nonsense. Trust me, when they start actually shipping, there will be threads on here stating the Hobbit is shipping. Until then, try to ignore this thread if it only provides disappointment. I can't blame people for feeling that way, I would feel the same if I had a preorder.

This is the unspoken truth about innumerable companies in disparate industries the world over. People will wax lyrical about how unethical, potentially illegal and outrageous it is, yet shower praise on the same companies who made it after starting like this, or idolise entrepreuneurs who got their big break doing this - in some cases 'robbing' being very close to literal robbery.

I don't necessarily think there's a way around it for some startups, when things go badly and delays occur. Probably like JJP until they survived long enough for a big investment last year. You'd like to think that isn't the starting plan, though it is the tried and tested fallback. But when you combine tremendous naivete of both buyers (pre-orderers) and sellers (JPop) with paralysis through incompetence and perfectionism (JPop) ... you're going to get a horrendous mess. The latter absolutely is far more common than the former (JJP) in the start up world, and pinball is too small for too many instances of the latter to occur.

JJP should be more than financially secure now, provided Hobbit sells well on release ... but if they have the same pre-order model for game 3, then alarm bells should ring as they're purely taking advantage of those foolish enough to do it, and further conditioning people to an unhealthy practice that will definitely result in more shit shows in future.

YOU are running out of patience and YOU didn't even order a game. You are admittedly jealous of those who can afford to buy one, so you try to undermine them with fear in the disguise of speculation and pity for those of us waiting.

This is the problem pre-order people have, including myself. We are tired of hearing negative things about JJP, Jack, the time frame, etc from those who don't have skin in the game. I am not in on Alien or TBL. I do check out the thread on them on occasion, but I don't comment. And if I did, it would not be to kill the enthusiasm of those who are in on it, or bash the manufacturer.

^^ this

I am still excited and enthusiastic about getting my Hobbit machine that I had ordered last year. Really hoping that the Bag End topper that I remember seeing a mock up of a while ago also gets made so I can add that to my machine.

Nailed it!

If you're going to Pre-Order and have 'skin in the game' then you need to have thicker skin! People will bash and troll but just move past it and don't read it! I have WOZ pre-ordered and waited over an extra year. Love it! The Hobbit will get done and you'll have one of if not the very best games ever made! Don't pay attention to the posts that you don't like. Opinions are like you know whats and everyone has one!

I'm a pre-orderer and I don't necessarily mind hearing negative things from people who don't have "skin" in the game. This is a pinball forum and everyone is entitled to share their opinion. I think honest discussion is a good thing.

However, when I see the same individuals popping up in every JJP thread, expressing their negative opinions and speculations over and over again (regardless of the topic) when they aren't even a pre-orderer it does get tiring and it strikes me as being dishonest. Especially as their posts contribute to much of the drama and derailment in the threads.

They are often the first to point out that JJP supporters can't handle anything negative. I think the reality is, people who have been in on WOZ and the Hobbit over the past 4-5 years have lost all tolerance for THEIR speculation and negative posts. Hence some supporters strong reactions to what on the surface look like minor criticisms.

It makes me wonder what kind of personal problems they have with JJP that would drive them to spend so much time and energy dogging the company.

Let me add that LOWEPG is one of the few individuals that even though I think he has a problem with JJP and his posts are usually critical in nature, he strikes me as being mostly objective and able to contribute honestly to a discussion.

100 x $7500 = $750,000 less a bulk discount ? I don't suppose Joe will tell us but any of you businessmen care to guess how much CASH is in JJP's account NOW.