Quoted from lowepg:Thoughts?
Good suggestions, but why be insulting to those that bought the game (or are fans after seeing or playing what's been revealed thus far)?
Is it necessary to relate them to members of a cult who committed suicide?
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Quoted from lowepg:Thoughts?
Good suggestions, but why be insulting to those that bought the game (or are fans after seeing or playing what's been revealed thus far)?
Is it necessary to relate them to members of a cult who committed suicide?
Copied from other Hobbit update thread:
I was at CAX and saw the presentation by David Thiel and Butch Peel. I think they had a really good presentation and David shared some different sound clips.
He's up to 1100 voice clips and gave an example of one of the modes, where each shot made is accompanied by a "stinger" (video and sound clip). It reminded me of LOTR but on steroids. He said creating the stingers for 30+ modes seemed overwhelming at first but he has most of them done now. He also said the Hobbit has at least 2x the content of any sound package he's done in the past. The word used in the presentation was "Epic".
The Hobbit has been submitted for electrical testing (UL?).
A voice actor has been hired and the script has been written. David said if he wasn't at the show, he most likely would have been recording the custom speech. He said that once the custom speech is acquired, it shouldn't take long to incorporate it into the game.
Quoted from fordtudoor:Why do folks think that "Game of Thrones" is the end all/be all cure for pinball?
Because it's going to be the bestest ever! We're finally going to get the dragon that flies over the playfield breathing fire and spitting out pinballs that was so lacking in TH.
I pre-ordered in Nov, 2012 to get an initial savings and to lock in the price. Part of the decision to pre-order was based on the belief that I could get a refund at any time if I didn't like how the game was shaping up (unless the company goes under, of course).
I may be in the minority, but it doesn't matter how long it takes as long as I get the game and it is excellent. My only concern about the delays is that they push out JJP's other projects and delay incoming revenue, making it harder to keep the business afloat.
Have we not learned by now that Jack and the rest of the manufacturers (other than Stern and maybe Spooky) give out time estimates based on everything proceeding perfectly from the moment they give the estimate (to be generous).
All such estimates must be taken with a pound of salt.
Quoted from Captain_Kirk:Image loading is disabled in your settings. un-hideIMG_0083.jpg
A fine wine takes time! Enjoy your 6 bottles of two buck Chuck.
I think those drop targets and pop-ups are all newly designed mechs. I wouldn't be surprised if they needed some tweaks. Hopefully they've gotten lots of play time to work out any kinks.
Quoted from dendoc:Stated by Jack it is not a wide body
Actually, I think he was pretty cagey with that answer. Not really sure what to expect.
Quoted from heckheck:Give me standard body. Stern has been tearing it up with MET, ST, KISS as far as the fast and furious fun games so JJP needs to answer in kind.
I say leave that market to Stern. For the money pinball machines are commanding these days, I want a full featured game that's loaded with stuff and is still fun to play.
Quoted from heckheck:I really think the next game really needs to focus on speed and shot geometry above all else, and with Pat at the wheel I have no doubts it will be great! I think a standard body is just easier to get right, especially for speed. Pat's done some nice widebodies, but he's done some killer standards (FH, TAF, RBION).
Pat has made some of my favorite games but he hasn't built his reputation on flow and speed. I'm anxious to see what new cool stuff he's going to bring to the table.
Quoted from heckheck:Why in the world would you do that?!?!? Why would you cede fast fun frenetic pinball play soley to the competition? Sure don't skimp on toys, art, video, features, but to say that Stern can just own flow and speed is just plain short sighted. WOW. If all JJP ever cranks out are pretty games loaded with toys that play so so, I for one won't be buying too many. They do need to pump up the adreneline a bit with a faster shooting game to mix things up.
Yes, I see your point. I guess I'm a little tired of the typical fast flowing fan layout with new theme and ruleset slapped on that so many people can't seem to get enough of. There are many great games of that style to choose from already. Then again, it may just be my contrary nature.
I would love to see JJP take on a four flipper game with great flow and interesting loops (like JD for example).
For the record, I think WOZ is fast, fun and frenetic, just in a different (and more interesting to me) way.
Quoted from smokedog:Not a chance in heck they lower the price. Why would they? People are buying pins, sight unseen, for the current prices.
If anything, expect another $500 price increase.
Unfortunately we've been in a bad cycle.
JJP announces a pin for $1500 more than Stern > Stern sees people pre-order and raises their prices> JJP sees people buying the higher priced Sterns that have much less content and raises their prices > Stern sees people continuing to pre-order and raises their prices > repeat ad nauseum.
Quoted from lowepg:But, use WoZ as an example:
Did you really SAVE money tying up your cash for YEARS?
Working through multiple iterations of led boards, etc?
Yes, I think I saved money at the $6500 purchase price versus where it would have been, sitting in the bank. That was my reason for pre-ordering as I normally don't like being an early adopter due to the expected growing pains.
WOZ turned out much better than I expected. Unfortunately, if I hadn't had that positive pre-ordering experience, I might not have signed up for other pre-orders that didn't turn out so well.
Quoted from centerflank:How is that working out?
GOT premium ordered 2 weeks ago.
I ordered Hobbit three years ago, so I win.
Quoted from lowepg:...Jack had to be laughing his ass of at the folks, for months, that were lauded the delay as "Jack listening to customers!
I think it's more likely Jack was using a half truth in that there were additional delays after changes were made in response to customer feedback, though the game would not have shipped on time regardless.
I've spoken with Jack on a few occasions and he didn't strike me as the kind of person who would be "laughing his ass off at the folks" who took his words at face value.
Quoted from sd_tom:we only deal with middle truths here
Yeah, I used "middle truth" first but decided "half truth" was more accurate after rereading the definition below.
Quoted from Skyemont:Can't we get the truth for once!!
Half truth, middle truth or whole truth?
Quoted from Skyemont:I just don't understand. I guess my questions are:
1. Who said production was November, 2015?
2. Who said it was not going to happen November, 2015?
Just trying to decide on what I'm going to do. These delays are so STUPID!!! Updates would be nice. Can't we get the truth for once!!
Seriously though, if you don't like uncertainty or have little patience for delays, the best way to avoid disappointment is to just wait until a distributor has a machine available for immediate delivery.
From what I've seen, the time estimates from JJP seem to be based on what is known at the time and if nothing goes wrong (giving some benefit of the doubt here), and are usually way too optimistic.
Quoted from RTS:In the JJP Forum group, Subject Titled: "Next update on TH??" post dated Oct 29 (2015) entered by Jersey Jack in response to the post directly above guessing when production will start, Jack responds saying "It will start next month!"
Also consider Jack's definition of starting production might not be what we think it is. For example, building wiring harnesses or sub assemblies could be considered "starting production", but it doesn't mean games are going down the line.
Quoted from markmon:Anyone that thinks the start of production means they will receive their game on a few weeks is either one of the first 20 preorders or crazy.
It wouldn't surprise me if distributors had the opportunity to place their orders before it was opened up to the public. If that is the case, you will definitely be able buy one before we get ours, though probably at a higher price.
Quoted from cscmtp:Jack posted something encouraging on that FB post
"we will be starting production very very soon and will fill you and everyone in every step of the way!"
Not that anyone will be happy about a 2-3 year wait, but I think it would go a long one if he does start to update everyone as they hit production.
"we will be starting production very very soonish and will fill you and everyone in every step of the wayish!"
Just a couple of corrections to better set expectations.
One good thing about the delay is that it's been such a long since I've parted with the money it's going to feel like the Hobbit is free when it gets here.
Quoted from Pinballs:I'll never get excited about a new pinball release again, and will not pre-order again. Maybe when it's available I'll consider buying. I guess that also rules out Stern LEs nowadays.
When I bought TRON LE (that I still have), I played it first. Thereafter I took too many pre-order risks. Never again!
I'm still very excited to get the game and I really don't mind the wait. I would much rather JJP put out a great game than cut corners to get it out quickly.
My WOZ pre-order turned out better than I expected. If JJP likewise delivers on the hobbit, I would consider pre-ordering again if I thought the financial incentive was worth the risk.
Quoted from chessiv:So 40-50 machines should be coming off the line each week? That's production. Good if that's true and not another false promise.
Nice way to set a mark JJP never claimed to be able to achieve at the start of production, so that you can later say they lied when they miss it.
Edit: They have enough trouble making timelines and quotas they set, let alone ones that people fabricate for them.
Quoted from DaveH:It is not a production unit. It is a prototype that well end up with Ted to work on the programming, but will first be on a little tour with Jason.
Actually, it's listed as an "Engineering Sample", which I believe is one step closer to a production unit than a prototype.
Quoted from PinMonk:Hopefully that doesn't mean the front seams will be like they were in the other pic where the side art decals were stopping about 1/8" away from the corners by the coin door area instead of meeting flush.
Actually, I think I might prefer an 1/8" between the edge of the decal and the edges of the cabinet. Since the cabinet edges tend to be the areas that get dinged, it would be easier to touch up/repair damage if the artwork wasn't involved.
Quoted from Expletive:All you have to do is look at the history of WOZ and it's release to realize that even once production actually starts, it will still be a long time before the majority of pre-orderers get their game. A friend of mine plans on doing what he saw others do on WOZ: buy it after they have started production and get a game long before many who pre-ordered do (even though he will be paying a bit more).
I don't understand why people would be surprised by this. My only reason for pre-ordering was to get the game for less. I fully expect anyone who is willing to pay the going rate to be able to get a game before me, either from a distributor that bought an allotment of games early, maybe even before it was available to the general public, or from someone who purchased their game before me.
Quoted from Expletive:If you guys are happy waiting for 3 years to get your pin in order to pay a little less, more power to you. I wouldn't have the patience for that myself, and is one reason why I would never pre-order a pin.
Yep, people are motivated by different things.
For me, I have no problem waiting 3yrs or more, as long as the machine meets my expectations (or greatly exceeds it, as did WOZ).
I have plenty of machines to play and there are plenty more I haven't played.
On the other hand, I find it very hard to pay more for something when I know I could have gotten it for less. So, sitting on the sidelines while I watch prices rise on a game I plan to get is way more troubling than patiently waiting, knowing that my price is locked in. I can also get a refund if the game isn't progressing to my satisfaction.
Quoted from smokedog:I seem to remember some people buying standard WoZ's and receiving them before some people who had pre-ordered LE's. That is the bitching I remember, since standard's were not an option as early as the LE's were.
Well, the explanation for this was that some of the distributors with early orders changed their unsold LE's to standards (moving those LE's to the end of the line) so it didn't impact those waiting for their LEs.
It's also been said that there were no distributors when WOZ was first announced.
We'll probably never know what the truth is.
To me, reality is there weren't many Standards released like this so even if they were jumping the line, it wouldn't have had much of an impact on when someone got their LE. And, if that's what it took to keep the business running, I would much rather have them do that than close shop and not get a game.
My only preference is that if that was going on, for JJP to be up front about it. Though, they would have been raked over the coals, most likely resulting in refund requests, which would have defeated the purpose.
Quoted from dgpinball:As far as all the preorder debate goes, for us in Canada, pre-paying has meant a major saving because of our falling dollar
Since I'm in the US that's not an incentive but I like paying in installments versus one lump sum. When the call comes, the Hobbit is going to feel like it only cost a few hundred dollars (the shipping cost).
Quoted from vid1900:True.
But nothing is stopping Jack from doing a Pro version "for the good of pinball" and selling a bunch more at a lesser cost.
I don't know, any new pinball machine seems ridiculously expensive to anyone but us. If I were JJP or Stern watching buyers falling all over themselves to pay $6k for a pretty bare looking game like RZ, I'd be thinking about raising my prices.
On second thought, I doubt Stern or JJP could make a game comparable to RZ with a production run of only 300 for $6k and remain in business.
Quoted from rlslick:May just be me, but when I see JJP's assembly line, it looks wicked slow compared to looking at a Stern's assembly line. May just be their process...but the pace is so different all together.
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Not surprising.
The goal is to keep production busy year round. So far, JJP has only designed one machine every few years. Wouldn't make sense for them to staff up like Stern who designs 2 to 3 machines a year in addition to reruns and remakes.
It's a psychological thing, but letting go of $500 here and a $1000 there is much easier than $7500 in a single payment.
By now, I'm so far removed from the money I sent in for the Hobbit, it's as if it never existed.
Of course, if I had put that money in my bank account over the past 3 years, I would have made about $50 in interest, so there is that...
Quoted from Shapeshifter:No more bare than a Stern pro and RZ has Flipper Fidelity and color dmd so really it seems better value or at least equal value to a Stern pro.
Plus it is a true LE.
Yes, the color dmd and FF speakers add some value, but the playfield sort of reminds me of the home version games of the past when compared to their commercial versions (like Fireball or Captain Fantastic). Also, a Stern Pro isn't $6000.
I know all the manufacturers are competing for our pinball dollars but I like that they are each starting to settle in their niche and giving us, as buyers, lots of choices.
JJP on the high priced, higher BOM end.
Stern on the low priced, lower BOM end.
Spooky on the low production, collectible end.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:I think JJP should at least consider doing a cheaper standard body game with slightly less features along side separate higher end games.
When Jack announced WOZ, he thought there was a market for a premium pinball machine at a premium price. I'd like to see him stick to that business plan.
I've seen a few start-ups fail by trying to do too many things and diluting their meager resources, instead of concentrating on the one thing that makes them special.
Quoted from chessiv:If stern could easily sell 1000 le at a 8k price point they would. That's why I don't think the hobbit will sell large volumes past the preorder.
Again, in the beginning of JJP, Jack said he wasn't trying to compete with Stern. He believes people will pay a premium price for a loaded machine.
IMO Stern raised their prices to match JJP without adding a commensurate value to their machines.
We shall see if Jack was correct in his assessment.
Quoted from Hazoff:Wow, just constant Stern comparison and in a negative manner. I don't worship JJP or Stern or any manufacturer but I disagree with that 100%, STLE, TWDLE etc. offer quite a bit of material both in code and general gameplay,
You'll notice in my comparisons, I never mention good code, gameplay, fun, etc... as those things are all subjective. Stern makes very fun games. My favorite EM's and 80's Ballys are also very fun with shorter game times and lots of random action.
I'm only talking about the amount of physical stuff that is put into the game. A person would be blind not to see that JJP packs way more stuff into their games. By the time a buyer adds non-glare glass, shaker and color dmd to a Stern LE, they are probably pretty close to the price of a JJP game as well.
Of course it takes more than loading a game with stuff to make it successful. However, it helps to see where my money is being spent.
Back to the Hobbit. At this point, I can give it high marks for art. I expect I will score it high in sound and display effects from what's been revealed. The jury is still out on gameplay and code but because it's loaded with stuff and what's been revealed looks very good, the gameplay and code could be 7s and the overall score would still be high.
I also expect the way the LCD is being used, the four pop-ups and 11 individually controlled drop targets will make it stand out in a collection.
I don't see how anyone can write off the Hobbit as being "no fun" at this point, when to me, the rules, display, sound integration and game set-up (pitch, flipper and slingshot strength, etc..) are so much a part of the overall "fun" of a game.
I might dismiss a new release from any manufacturer based on it's art, theme or lack of features (not enough there for the $$, IMO) but not on it's "fun factor" until I've had a chance to play it set up fast with mostly final code.
Quoted from lowepg:Agree 100%
But, for the exact same reasons, its too soon to "spike the football" that its the greatest pinball game ever made.
Absolutely! At this point I like what I see, for the most part. My main concern is how the gameplay and shots feel. The center of the playfield looks too open to me, and I'm not sure if the pop-ups are enough to alleviate this. Then again, a friend said he likes it because of its openness, go figure.
However, it doesn't need to be the best game ever made to be a keeper, as long as it's different enough and fun enough to hold it's own in my collection.
Quoted from Krorghar:I was thinking that only the "dwarf" targets were individually controlled?. I'm wrong? 11 of these would be a blast.
Yes, ELF and MAN are also individually controlled (with standups behind them). There is so much than can be done, it boggles the mind.
Speaking of 11 individually controlled drop targets. It would be cool to see them synced to the music in attract mode. Sort of like the Bellagio water fountain.
If they have all the parts, how long do you think it would take to build say 5 games? Then how long to fully test? They may be able to get a few games to buyers who are willing to risk having the first games off the line by the end of the year, before full production starts.
Quoted from Pimp77:I do like the Hobbit movies too however, even all the added on fluff.
Didn't mind the extra fluff. However a few of the Legolas scenes, soft city humans beating orcs and slimy right hand man of ex mayor continually placed in positions of trust were well beyond even my limits of belief (for a fantasy film too!).
Quoted from Goronic:If it is from JJP I agree, if he ordered from a distributor he may get it a bit sooner. To be honest I want JJP to build a hundred or so before they build mine.
Yeah, I ordered day one but hope there are distributors to take the first hundred or so before it gets to me.
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