It would have been a good idea to create a new thread with new news. The problem is there is zero new news so the same stuff is happening in this thread. Nice try. You just jumped the gun

One can certainly argue semantics on any issue. Jack said a "small" (yet undefined) deposit would be required for Pat's game. I'm pretty sure I read that in the pintastic thread? So, until JJP produces a game with ZERO up-front money and you can pay cash for a pin and it's shipped immediately the pre-order model isn't done. How much you want to bet you're wrong? Again

These are the rules for every pinball game ever, including Woz.

I think a truly great game is a combo of great shots with great software and when you combine the two they are stronger than the sum of their parts. LOTR for example; Balrog literally blocks your main shot, a great reason to bash him. Hit the same target three times and you open the shot back up. Plus when you hit him he glows and makes a cool roar sound. You get great feedback for hitting him. A purpose is served by hitting him and when he's destroyed you get your main shot back. The software says, hit hit target three times (at a very basic level.) But the combination of everything I mentioned makes it feel great.

So at it's core you bash a target X times. Not a very sexy rule when you think about it on that level but combined with everything I mentioned it is awesome. So software alone doesn't make an awesome pin IMO. Lyman wrote great software for The Dark Knight and IMO it doesn't save a spinning coffee can and a bridge that's nothing more than a teeter totter with no purpose.

The best pins have great software combined with great and meaningful shots IMO.

Yeah you had better get great code after waiting three plus years for a machine to ship. Stern ships immediately and takes another year or two to get good code out if ever. Neither is really acceptable. iMO

I want to be Able to pay for a machine and actually receive it immediately with excellent code. Too much to ask?

Definitely skipping pre-orders.

More directly thought Panzer said JJP's software process is far superior to Stern, as in you get great code when the game ships. That's faulty logic in the fact that JJP machines take an average of three years-ish to ship, ignoring preorder. Stern games three years after launch have updated code, not always though. Again, I don't like either solution. I waited to buy a TWD until recently when the new code came out. Was that a year after launch?? Code is pretty good. Then again there' WOF, Avengers and others. So yeah...

Good idea.

Have we seen a ton of drop target banks?

Looks like he's going to kick out a few machines to try and calm the masses.

Is there any proof of this. I don't think we've seen any. Looks like the last batch of woz machines shipped a month ago was just that.

So 40-50 machines should be coming off the line each week? That's production. Good if that's true and not another false promise.

You'll probably see one or two games shipped to certain people, like mnpinball, so they can say users have machines. I'm not sure you should expect much more though.

I think troll is way overused here. There have only been a a few trolls I have ever seen. Mostly attention whores and assholes. Of course those two types are in the vast minority here but they sure are vocal =)

You're neither. You fall in to the entertaining category.

A good game is a great balance of software and layout. TSPP, good layout. I didn't like the balance of the software. Meh. Batman dark night, not a good play field, good software. Meh. LOTR, great layout great software. I think a great game has both. MM, great layout and software.

Yeah. I think I mentioned last week he was getting one.

Nope, he doesn't own anything. He is just the consumate pinball fanboi =)

What you're saying may be mostly true but Jason is just a user.

Better pin no doubt. But the cost of this one will choke sales compared to woz.

If he could he would. I doubt you'll see it. Makes you wonder how many people who haven't purchased hobbit at the lower price will pay $8500 plus shipping for a new game.

What did you pay for your woz? 6k? I honestly don't remember. X number of hobbit are sold at 7500? Price to buy if you weren't on preorder is 8500+shipping. Not a lot of pinheads have that much to spend on or pin or are willing to do so. Simple economics. No slight against JJP.

I clicked on the site and only saw the 8500 model. Stern only sells up to 500 le models? Sometimes has difficulty doing that. If stern could easily sell 1000 le at a 8k price point they would. That's why I don't think the hobbit will sell large volumes past the preorder. Again, great pin. If there was a cheaper version I would probably buy one. I won't spend 8k for any pin from anyone and I can afford to.

There were a few 3 more months updates.

Well, 0 x 50 = 0. So Stern quality = JJP. I do think that is a fact.