Balrog is perhaps the greatest bash toy of all time and you're calling LOTR's layout and toys boring? LOTR is famous for its combination of shots and code. Not just one over the other.

Neo has a really diverse collection, so his feel for the perfect game might not be that main stream. Take out a few words of his review and you have a review of AFM and MM..

Every shot in all of Pinball is boring. I don't care what game or what layout, the shots get boring very quickly. It is always the code that changes a boring shot into an exciting shot. The sounds, the music, and the code. For instance... "Gollum has the ring". Oh, have LOTR say that and my tension goes through the roof. Or have Frodo start counting down from 10, and you need the wandering shot in G vs S, and you desperately want the ball but it is up in the lanes... 3... 2... ONE.... Did you make it or miss? That is where it becomes fun.

There is a lot of truth to that. Not that pinball is boring, but it is a combination of elements that make it fun.

This scenario can't be good for JJP. Stern will announce a new game next month (week after Labor day historically), with Pros delivered that month and LEs the month after. GOT may be a similar enough theme, certainly a hot current one, and the instant gratification of having your game in weeks, not months.

You have said it so well.

The balrog looks ok, but honestly, he doesn't do anything more than the Genie in TOTAN, swings out for a multiball, does his thing and goes back. Hardly the best bash toy. The trunk in TOM does more and more impressive. THe Castle in MM is much more impressive. The ship in POTC rocks, moves and sinks revealing another path to shoot. And this is coming from someone who doesn't like POTC, or that impressed by MM. I rank LOTR above all those games. But I know where the strengths and weaknesses are in the games I love.

I couldn't agree with this more. Part of what makes a shot "satisfying" is the code behind successfully making that shot when it really counts. A flashing light and a "ding" are quite a bit less exciting (for me at least) than a series of well orchestrated call outs coupled with the light show on the playfield and what's being depicted on the display. There's nothing better than feeling that sense of urgency, regaining control of the ball, and successfully making that shot when the game is on the line--and I think that all comes from really great code.

Code *and* theme are 90% of the game for me.

IMO, Congo has one of the best layouts in pinball - it has a ton of shots that are well laid out. But yet it's a B tier game that brings about 1/2 as much as an A tier game from the same era. Why? The theme/art/music are not the most exciting.

A game that has a similar playfield layout to Congo is Tron - one of the best games ever made. Unlike Congo, the theme/art/music (and code) are top notch...and therefore make an exceptional game.

So no - the layout of Hobbit doesn't concern me. Pop up bash toys and drop targets are two of my favorite mechs in pinball - and the Hobbit has more of those than any pin I've come across. Couple that with a great theme, great sounds, great art and great code...and we should have a winner!

I taught him everything he knows.

I LOVE the music in Congo. Remember that Congo came out around the same period as many other games that still had that awful MIDI-sounding music. Congo has a lush orchestral track with those thumping drums. Through great speakers, I think it's one of the best-sounding games of the 90s.

Tron's techno music gets on my nerves after about 10 minutes...but only when I'm watching somebody else play. When I'm playing, I'm too busy trying not to drain on that drain monster of a game.

What about layout? Curious to know what you like in that regard. LOTR is one of my favorites - I think the overall package is good, I like the layout and the toys. I usually like a layout with some good variety, which is one of the negatives of Hobbit as you pointed out. I agree, playfield is plain. Seems they're putting a lot of stock in the popups. Even with lots of different modes, I'm skeptical about having to rely on the popups a lot. Plus, after WD already came out, the popups aren't as much as a novelty to me.

layout as in LOTR? I don't care for the layout only, because I can think of about 20 other games that use practically the same layout. 4 of which I have in my collection. Would have like something original instead of the boring fan pattern. But even with it being a cookie cutter fan pattern, it's still a top 5 game for me.

I meant what are some games that you like the layout on? That's what I'm curious about. Also, now that you mention it, I'd be curious which you think have the similar LOTR layout. Not challenging you on that: maybe I'll learn of some more games I'm unfamiliar with that I might need to play. I'm probably much less experienced, but the LOTR layout didn't strike me as a standard fan layout. I guess that's a subjective thing. I thought there was enough differences in many of the LOTR shots that made it feel unique to me as a whole: I like the deep left shots, center shot, left side VUK, and right ball lock shots.

This is exactly why I bailed a couple months ago. Tired of vague production start dates & months of lacking communication from JJP, combined with the fact I was becoming less enthused with the theme & shot layout of TH. Coding & sound will be the saving grace of TH, but I'm glad to hear I'm not alone with the way I feel about the overall layout. Bottom line is that they took too long to bring it to market. JJP also kept raising the price of TH to make pre-order buyers feel like they're getting a great deal, but that didn't stop me from bailing either.

If Stern releases GOT this fall, there's no denying it's going to effect Hobbit sales. Ritchie's first pin in two years, with Sheets coding, and possible LCD implementation & with a highly desirable similar theme. Glad I beat the refund rush & I'm not tied down to any company right now. Gives me options & a big wad of cash to play with. I'm excited what the coming months will bring

LOTR is fun because of the modes and multiballs. Single-ball play is all about setting up for the next multiball and cashing in rewards that you earned in the last one.

The layout is generic but functional, and bits like the way the loops and path of the dead work get taken for granted but are quite clever.

The balrog toy IS boring. But the fellowship multiball is great.

The multiball rules in that game are a great example of how pinball 'comes together' - shooting one ball on a Lotr whitewood with no sound would be boring. But add two balls, music, a combo system, and Christopher Lee shouting, "To War!" and baby, you got yourself a delicious stew.

Hobbit on the other hand has a unique layout. May take longer to find the hook, or the perfect stack, or the best way to move through the game. I'm still confident it'll end up a great game, but then again Im a big fan of WoZ as well and not everyone is.

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I have no problem to wait, if I see progress in the development to make the game better. Month ago it was announced, this is the final product. Now I feel like a donkey running after the carrot. And no matter what Jack tells us, waiting isn't fun! They told us if we want a good product, we have to wait. Ok. So I will judge the final product quality when I will get the game. After this long wait I hope I will see something in return for the long wait that let me think the wait was worth it. My WoZ was good, thats why I orderd The Hobbit. But I am not a stupid donkey. If an other company will show me a carrot that I like and now that I can get it right in time. I will take that one.
As much as I hope that JJP will succeed, it's a dangerous way they are going. A production start end september means no Hobbit for most of us 2015. And I think Stern is cooking up something great to counter the hobbit.

We're on the same page.

I got impatient & bailed, where multiple factors other than wait times led to that decision. I wish JJP all the best, but those rising prices & increasing delay times aren't helping build the fan base. If JJP had released TH in January like they were supposed too, then this wad of cash wouldn't be sitting in my pocket right now.

There's plenty of other new "fresh carrots" coming this Fall. I think Stern is ready to take the training wheels off their Spike system on release #3 & go all out. If that turns out to be GOT, then I think we're all in for a real treat. TH is becoming old news, at least for me. I've seen the all gameplay videos & analyzed the layout to the point of exhaustion for the last two years. The excitement just isn't there for me anymore. Just being honest.

What?

Why do folks think that "Game of Thrones" is the end all/be all cure for pinball? It takes a lot more to produce a successful and highly regarded pintable than the theme. Yet everyone thinks GOT is the Second Coming. This is the reason I would never buy a WOZ - it may be the greatest playing pin ever but I just can't get past the theme. It takes a complete package and you can't judge that until the game is produced. Until then it is all meaningless conjecture.

Because it's going to be the bestest ever! We're finally going to get the dragon that flies over the playfield breathing fire and spitting out pinballs that was so lacking in TH.

If some people won't buy a game because of the theme, then I don't think the opposite is that difficult to understand.

Not me, but I do get the logic.

I agree with you (but I love my WOZ...).

Anyway, the reason for all the irrational exuberance:
-GoT is a hot, hot, license right now.
-Stern has had some experience at this point with the new platform, so maybe they're ready to push the envelope.
-People frustrated awaiting fantasy-licensed Hobbit want to see something fantasy-themed, to see if it scratches that itch.
-SR design (confirm?).
-Stern's first LCD definite possibility.

But who knows? It could be that it comes out at same time as Hobbit, and Hobbit blows GoT away? Hot licenses make it hard to predict, because, as much as some people will hate this, the truth is that the presentation of the license might be more important than gameplay for sales volume. And so jjp's lcd might therefore be the deciding factor (assuming stern doesn't have a monster lcd presentation itself).

But then again, stern might have some radical ways of presenting GoT license footage that no ones ever done before, and that would sell alot of people without ever seeing the playfield.

Sad but true.

For the reasons I stated...

1) It's a high demand theme with millions of fans, high sales potential
2) Designed by Steve Ritchie, arguably the best designer in pinball
3) Ruleset by Steve Lyman, arguably the best programmer in pinball
4) This duo's teamups already have proven track record of awesomeness (AC/DC, Spider-Man)
5) They've had over 2 years to come up with an innovative design & fully utilize the Spike platform
6) Rumored to have Sterns first LCD screen, ditching the DMD, among other things

I haven't heard anyone saying GOT is the end all of pinball. It hasn't even been revealed yet. But for the reasons stated above, a lot of people are very interested in this title. It's the same type of Fantasy/Dragon/Magic theme as TH, and they will both be coming to market at the same time this Fall, in direct competition. Its going to be an exciting time for pinball in the coming months.

Exaggerate much?

Please link the posts where people are suggesting GoT is the "end all/be all cure" for pinball?

Also, what exactly ails pinball that it needs a "cure"?

HP Good to have options but if you wanna buy back into The Hobbit it is gonna be a more expensive. Why not just wait it out and then get a refund or sell your preorder spot for a bit of a profit if you wanna go GoT?

I am afraid a Stern GOT pin will be a nightmare codewise.

Not with Steve Lyman on the job!

ooooooooorrrrrrrrr. how about the option, just wait it out and buy on the secondary market. People around here seem to forget, but back in the day, most people didn't buy NIB anything. We waited and bought them from operators for a fraction of what they were new. Same holds true. Wait it out. If you like it down the road, there will not be a shortage of them. Buy secondary and save yourself some money. 98% of the time, it's cheaper used. As for the 2 % chance it more expensive. I'd take my chances. Odds are greatly in your favor that you will save 100's if not even 1000's depending on how long you wait or wait for the right deal at the right time.

What games have this?

Panzer, I'm not sure that is a good example. AC/DC is a great game. Yes, it is very different than WOZ, but I'm glad there are many different styles of games. Not everyone wants the complexity of layers that WOZ provides.

I don't recall the popups being used in modes, but I might be wrong. They are used extensively as hurryup shots, and I think they were in Multiball as well. But with 31 of them, yes, some modes will be more basic than others. Just like on WOZ it is easier to start ECMB than Rescue. It's what Keith does. He has the uncanny ability to make a game accessible and complex at the same time. Some easy goals that are satisfying, some medium goals that make you play well to get there, and an ending mode that you will struggle for years to get to. Brilliant stuff.

i can attest to this as i have never seen Valinor and can't even get past the the 3rd Alien Invasion lock on TSPP. I have had my WOZLE for 20 months now and still have not collected 1 gem, although i have been trying to stack modes together to see how they play and not really be going for the gems.

I am eagerly awaiting The Hobbit release and expect i will be playing it for years to come also.

Just hearing you guys talk about how deep TH is makes me want to play one badly.

I just wish JJP would release the rule set and explain the modes more so we can really see just how deep the game is.

These are the rules for every pinball game ever, including Woz.

I think a truly great game is a combo of great shots with great software and when you combine the two they are stronger than the sum of their parts. LOTR for example; Balrog literally blocks your main shot, a great reason to bash him. Hit the same target three times and you open the shot back up. Plus when you hit him he glows and makes a cool roar sound. You get great feedback for hitting him. A purpose is served by hitting him and when he's destroyed you get your main shot back. The software says, hit hit target three times (at a very basic level.) But the combination of everything I mentioned makes it feel great.

So at it's core you bash a target X times. Not a very sexy rule when you think about it on that level but combined with everything I mentioned it is awesome. So software alone doesn't make an awesome pin IMO. Lyman wrote great software for The Dark Knight and IMO it doesn't save a spinning coffee can and a bridge that's nothing more than a teeter totter with no purpose.

The best pins have great software combined with great and meaningful shots IMO.

You're absolutely right. Lyman is the master of risk vs reward for high scoring tournament based gameplay, and Johnson is the master of incredibly deep rulesets & story based gameplay. They are both the best in the industry at what they do, and each type of gameplay is equally compelling. No collection is complete without at least one pin from each of these programmers.

I like a bit of discovery first. Playing it at the Pintastic show was a blast when I realized there was more code in it than I thought there was. I was expecting the proverbial "box of lights", but found cool stuff in it.

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Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Thank you for saving me the effort & stating the obvious. If I want a Hobbit down the road, it will be a used pin purchase after playing it first & then making that decision. But as I stated before, I find the layout & Hobbit theme less appealing than I used too.

might be obvious to some, but the way this group talks. I think they either forgot, or didn't realize that pinball used to be primarily bought on the secondary market.

Try to buy a AC/DC or Tron LE.
I preorder games I think I will like. There is no chance to get one in the best version if you don't preorder it. Perhaps it's something else in the US market.
And even if I had played games on location I couldn't say if I would like them at home.
For now I have 2 Keeper. AC/DC and Metallica. I got both NIB and I am very happy with both of them. I have a WOZ and will sell it this weekend. It's an awesome game and I like everything about it, only the theme let me sell it.
I had to wait for all of these games. With the STERN games I had to wait a long time for the code to be finished. I was angry with STERN cause they gave us no info about the progress in the development of the code. Waiting isn't a bad thing if there are news of progress. But silence is an asskick for every customer who is waiting.
Now it's the same with JJP.
There are no real news! The game is finished, but production won't start.
Why don't they fill this waiting time with news about the code? The hobbit is still a mystery for me , how will it play? What is planned with the upper right flipper..........there are so many thing we all want to now here. Waiting time can be frustrating or exciting. And perhaps it is just me, but I feel the last few month are more frustrating, when the only news we get are more delays with recriminations to the suppliers.
I don't believe they are so afraid about that we would criticize every detail they announce so everybody has taken a vow of silence.
At the end of this month they have a open house at JJP. If we will hear the same old stories about the game development we heard over and over with no real news, I will give up.
Cause I think if we are so close to the finish line, so near to the production, we should hear and see way more new infos about this game. I can't remember if it was the same with WOZ.