(Topic ID: 100124)

1st EM need a little guidance...


By crujones4life

5 years ago



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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by poppapin
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There are 163 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 4.
#51 5 years ago
Quoted from Pin-it:

Dont know much about them,i use an old school Weller solder gun.

How many watts is the cold heat iron?

IMG_2089 - Copy.JPG 20 KB

I just bought a $9 craftsman iron instead.

#52 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

The left flipper i cant move up and down from playfield surface even a little like the right flipper maybe this is causing me to lose some power? Any other ideas?

Is it rubbing? Small washers between the flipper shaft and the bushing will add clearance.
You did change out the flipper bushing?

#53 5 years ago
Quoted from Pin-it:

Is it rubbing? Small washers between the flipper shaft and the bushing will add clearance.
You did change out the flipper bushing?

You know my rebuild kit from PBR came with 2 very thin black metal washers. I had no idea where they went so I didn't use them. Is that what there for? Do I put them over bushing on top of playfield? Yes bushings are new.

#54 5 years ago

Now I'm thinking those washers are too big...they would protrude out from under the flippers. Wonder where they go...

#55 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

Do I put them over bushing on top of playfield? Yes bushings are new.

Yes ,its as though you are increasing the height of the bushing itself,which increases the gap of the flipper to playfield gap.
I have done a few ,so your not the first. The washers go on top of the playfield side of the bushing.

Quoted from crujones4life:

I'm thinking those washers are too big...t

Get smaller ones.... If you have the old parts bring them with you to size proper ,ends trips to the hardware store.
Flipper bushing drawing.png
Just so there is no confusion. Also make sure the washers fit inside the flipper in addition to shaft/stem fitment.

#56 5 years ago

Are the thin Black washers curved? If so, they are for mounting the coils. They help prevent the coil bobbin from rattling back and forth between the brackets as some mounting designs don't allow for you to sinch the brackets tight against the bobbin. The can help prevent some of the buzzing when the flippers are held on.

#57 5 years ago
Quoted from Pin-it:

Yes ,its as though you are increasing the height of the bushing itself,which increases the gap of the flipper to playfield gap.
I have done a few ,so your not the first. The washers go on top of the playfield side of the bushing.

Get smaller ones.... If you have the old parts bring them with you to size proper ,ends trips to the hardware store.

Just so there is no confusion. Also make sure the washers fit inside the flipper in addition to shaft/stem fitment.

Flipper bushing drawing.png 2 KB

Thanks I will try that!

#58 5 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Are the thin Black washers curved? If so, they are for mounting the coils. They help prevent the coil bobbin from rattling back and forth between the brackets as some mounting designs don't allow for you to sinch the brackets tight against the bobbin. The can help prevent some of the buzzing when the flippers are held on.

Yes they are curved. That makes sense...thanks!

#59 5 years ago

Right flipper
20140819_154856.jpg

Left flipper
20140819_154908.jpg

Right flipper coil is brand new and flipper is powerful.
Left flipper coil is old and is too weak. Tried measuring resistance by placing black lead on middle lug and red lead on either side...I think that's how I read to do it. 3.1 ohms on right side (if looking at my pic for orientation) and 0.5 ohms on left side. My meter was set to 200 ohms which is the lowest setting. Do I need a new coil? Also look at the wires on left coil there just twisted together! Lugs on left coil don't look to hot either. Also left flipper has a little chatter.

#60 5 years ago

You can't read across the thinner coil without opening the EOS switch. You should also short your meter leads together to get the resistance of your leads. Sometimes, they will be in the 0.4-0.5 range already which would mean your reading is a dead short (the closed EOS Switch).

Also, that A-17875 is a Gottlieb flipper coil, not a Williams. So, don't expect it to read or perform the same as your other one.

#61 5 years ago

So should I just buy a new Williams coil if I want that flipper to be as strong? Are Gottleib coils not as strong or is it more of just the wrong part for the job kinda thing? I just assumed they were interchangable.

#62 5 years ago

Yes, buy a new, correct coil....it will eliminate one of the dozen or so reasons the flipper might be weak plus you'll never have to worry about it again for 30-40 years... . Now there are a couple of things I see....or can't see......first it may be the picture but I can't see the thin coil wire coming off the coil to the green wire lug on the left coil picture so make sure it's there. Second may be the picture again but the left coil EOS switch looks pretty close to the pawl... like it may open too early which will cut power to the coil....

#63 5 years ago

Measured coil correctly this time and got 40 and 3.1 ohms. I'm going to order a new Williams coil and hope that does the trick. That little wire is there btw...just hard to see.

#64 5 years ago

Oh and end of stroke is adjusted correctly...as far as I can tell anyway.

#65 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

I just assumed they were interchangable.

Extracted from Pinball medic:
Solenoid Coil Body Differences
(Flipper and large core bank reset coils are not included in this comparison.)
Bally and Gottlieb use the same standard 1 1/2 inches long coil body. Gottlieb and Bally coils usually use a 1 5/8 inch long coil sleeve.
Replace a Gottlieb coil with a Bally manufactured coil substitution only if a genuine coil is unattainable.
Pinball Medic Amusements Pinball Solenoid Coil Charts A typical Williams or Data East coil uses a 1/16 of an inch shorter coil body then a Gottlieb coil.
Williams coil body length is 1 5/8 inches. Standard length of coil sleeve for Williams coils is 1 3/4 inches long.
Coil Substitutions using a different coil manufacturer then the original coil
It is always best to use a coil with the exact part number of the original. However, this cannot always be found. Specs like coil body length, coil diode (if present on original coil), coil sleeve type/length and coil body style should always be the same between the original coil and its substitute coil. Coil body length, lug placement/length and coil sleeve type should always be considered when substituting coil part numbers. A match can usually be found by comparing the function of the original coil with the typical function of the substitute coil. Pinball game coils have been specifically designed to operate the mechanism they were installed in......

Quoted from crujones4life:

. I'm going to order a new Williams coil

I would.

#66 5 years ago

Thanks for the detailed explanation pin-it! Wish I just would ordered a second new coil to begin with. Oh well I'll just order a new one in a day or so if a local pinsider I have been talking to cannot locate one. I have to call PBR anyway cause the rubber kit was missing a rubber.

#67 5 years ago

The Williams FL-21-375/28-400 (my new coil) is stronger than a stock Gottlieb A5141(which is in turn stronger than my junk coil-A-17875 24-560/31-1100 2.8/40), with 375 turns of #21 wire power winding of 1.3 ohms (stronger than A5141's 1.9 ohms, but not as strong as yellow-dot's 1.0 ohms). This is a nice "compromise" coil, though the fit into a Gottlieb flipper mech is a bit tight because the WMS coil is 1/16" longer. (Steve Young has told me he will eventually wind these coil specs on a Gottlieb coil frame, solving this problem, and these will be called "orange dot" A-5141 coils.)

So in summary, on Gottlieb EM games and post-1962 Williams EM games running at 30 volts:

Gtb Stock: a5141 (450 turns #22 wire, 1.9 ohms)Gtb/Wms Stronger: FL-21-375/28-400 (375 turns of #21 wire, 1.3 ohms), aka "orange dot".Gtb Strongest: a5141 "yellow-dot" (300 turns #20 wire, 1.0 ohms)Wms Strongest: FL-20-300/28-400 (300 turns #20 wire, 1.0 ohms). This is the same coil strength as a Gottlieb A5141 "yellow dot", but wound on a Williams coil frame.

I know most of you probably know this but hopefully it helps someone else in the future.

#68 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

The Williams FL-21-375/28-400 (my new coil) is stronger than a stock Gottlieb A5141(which is in turn stronger than my junk coil-A-17875 24-560/31-1100 2.8/40), with 375 turns of #21 wire power winding of 1.3 ohms (stronger than A5141's 1.9 ohms, but not as strong as yellow-dot's 1.0 ohms). This is a nice "compromise" coil, though the fit into a Gottlieb flipper mech is a bit tight because the WMS coil is 1/16" longer. (Steve Young has told me he will eventually wind these coil specs on a Gottlieb coil frame, solving this problem, and these will be called "orange dot" A-5141 coils.)
So in summary, on Gottlieb EM games and post-1962 Williams EM games running at 30 volts:
Gtb Stock: a5141 (450 turns #22 wire, 1.9 ohms)Gtb/Wms Stronger: FL-21-375/28-400 (375 turns of #21 wire, 1.3 ohms), aka "orange dot".Gtb Strongest: a5141 "yellow-dot" (300 turns #20 wire, 1.0 ohms)Wms Strongest: FL-20-300/28-400 (300 turns #20 wire, 1.0 ohms). This is the same coil strength as a Gottlieb A5141 "yellow dot", but wound on a Williams coil frame.
I know most of you probably know this but hopefully it helps someone else in the future.

Great info for when I go through this process as well. Thanks!

#69 5 years ago

Out of curiosity...is there any reason why I could not or should not use the strongest Williams coils FL20-300 listed above instead of the FL21-375? I want the flippers to be really snappy.

#70 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

Out of curiosity...is there any reason why I could not or should not use the strongest Williams coils FL20-300 listed above instead of the FL21-375? I want the flippers to be really snappy.

You can overpower a game with too strong a flipper coil. Ask anyone who has used Gottlieb yellow dots. At times, they can just be too much.

Snappy is fine. Breaking stuff and having the ball hit the glass all the time isn't.

#71 5 years ago

I hear you. I think maybe I'll just order the same coil for the left flipper that I have on the right flipper and see how it plays after I wax the playfield. Or....maybe I just order the high power coils...I dunno. Lol.

#72 5 years ago

I'd use what is called for in the schematic. You can always go up if you're not happy with it. But if you rebuild the flippers completely, including the EOS switches, and the mechanism is working properly, the stock coils should give you plenty of power.

#73 5 years ago

Tonight I swapped the coils on the flippers and now the left flipper is snappy and powerful and right flipper is chatty and weak. So problem is definitely the coil. People always say coils are usually fine...well both of mine were bad. The game is 50 years old after all. Who knows the last time those coils were changed. Just as a FYI I have decided on ordering a second FL 21-375 as it's powerful enough for this game.

#74 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

People always say coils are usually fine.

I do understand this notion. Coils are entirely solid state. Just wire wrapped around in a loop. There's nothing to wear out (unless of course the wire shorted, in which case the resistance would be way out of whack.)

#75 5 years ago

Have you read this? Will save a lot of time & frustration. Clay knows his stuff.

#76 5 years ago

Oh yeah. I've read over it several times. I used his guide for my flipper rebuild.

#77 5 years ago

For extra credit you may want to reverse the hardware to a stud type attachment.
Some may forbid this Mod but i dont care whats underneath as its easily reversible,besides its mine.
Benefits:less likely to strip the bracket hole rather than way the Oem does it running a screw in and out,harder to strip the nut than it is to strip the Phillips head,plus easier to adjust/tighten.
The only catch to this mod is that the flat of the first nut tightened will have to be parallel with the coils length in order for the socket to catch/tighten the 2nd nut.

Just dont over-tighten the nut though, as you could snap off the screws shaft or strip it. Just snug it down.

I also use two toothed type washers (not shown) under the screw and nut.

Hdwr. Mod. (500x281).jpg

#78 5 years ago

So I looked at my coil chart included with my game and the FL21-375 is the coil the game originally came with...guess that's why it plays so well with that coil...lol! Second coil should be here tomorrow can't wait! This game is so much fun with one good flipper can't wait to see how good it plays with two!

#79 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

guess that's why it plays so well with that coil...lol! Second coil should be here tomorrow can't wait! This game is so much fun with one good flipper can't wait to see how good it plays with two!

you can also use "Hi Tap", for a little more power.

#80 5 years ago

Put other new coil in and game plays amazing! Also replaced every 44 under the inserts and pop bumpers with 47s. Cleaned all the inserts...man what a difference that made! I have like three bulbs that like to randomly flicker even after bulbs replaced...hopefully just dirty sockets. I bought one of those rubber sticks. Do I just put in in the socket and spin it around? Cause that's what I did. Can I use a small amount of 91% alcohol on a swab inside the socket?

Also...what is the best type of wax to use on an old playfield like this?

And...what is the easiest way to get paint off a coin door?

Oh...I have noticed an intermittent whining sound. Hard to tell what it is. Any ideas?

My score reel issue seems to have gone away...maybe because I have played the machine so much?

#81 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

Put other new coil in and game plays amazing! Also replaced every 44 under the inserts and pop bumpers with 47s. Cleaned all the inserts...man what a difference that made! I have like three bulbs that like to randomly flicker even after bulbs replaced...hopefully just dirty sockets. I bought one of those rubber sticks. Do I just put in in the socket and spin it around? Cause that's what I did. Can I use a small amount of 91% alcohol on a swab inside the socket?
Also...what is the best type of wax to use on an old playfield like this?
And...what is the easiest way to get paint off a coin door?
Oh...I have noticed an intermittent whining sound. Hard to tell what it is. Any ideas?
My score reel issue seems to have gone away...maybe because I have played the machine so much?

EMs are like cars. They need to be played. They don't like to sit.

Put the socket cleaning stick in a drill and give it a quick spin. It might help, might not. Lamp socket issues aren't always just dirty. Don't really need to use alcohol on it.

Any good carnauba paste wax works well on playfields. Be careful, don't get it under the rollover buttons, hard to get off there.

On the whining sound, without hearing it, impossible to know. Could be the score motor needs a bit of oil. Could be a relay buzzing.

#82 5 years ago

I cleaned the hell out of the light sockets tonight...lights (5-9 on left side playfield and 10-A on right side of playfield) still flicker on and off...dammit. I have read about adding gun oil or silicon grease to the sockets to fix this issue. What do you guys do? Replacing the sockets looks tricky. ..every socket is under a skinny metal rod and attached to it with some solder and staples...why?!?!?!? What should I do? Also my 100 point pop bumper likes to flicker...20140829_004432.jpg20140829_004440.jpg20140829_004953.jpg20140829_004958.jpg

#83 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

I cleaned the hell out of the light sockets tonight...lights (5-9 on left side playfield and 10-A on right side of playfield) still flicker on and off...dammit. I have read about adding gun oil or silicon grease to the sockets to fix this issue. What do you guys do? Replacing the sockets looks tricky. ..every socket is under a skinny metal rod and attached to it with some solder and staples...why?!?!?!? What should I do? Also my 100 point pop bumper likes to flicker...

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Replacing a socket is simple. By "skinny metal rod" I'm assuming you mean the ground braid. that is soldered to the socket. You just have to desolder the two connections, and remove the screw. Put the new one in, resolder the power lead and the ground, and you're ready to go. You don't have to pull any of the staples.

If the pop bumper lamp is flickering, pull the cap off and make sure the lamp is firm inserted into the pb socket. Also make sure the pb socket connections under the playfield are solid. That socket is totally different from a regular lamp socket.

That playfield is too nice to ruined by those bumper caps. Steve Young has them all. It's not cheap, but replace them. It will look so much better.

Oil or grease in the socket is not the fix.

#84 5 years ago

# 9 → http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/TimArnold/47ThingsYouNeedToKnow.htm

Yes you can buy new ones but try that repair first ↑↑ as it doesnt cost a lot of $$$.

Most likely thats all you need to do,solder a drop between the bracket & base will fix it ,dont over heat it though. Whether you need to solder a tit on the bulb,i usually dont unless its worn down.
But a scuff pad cleaning is a good idea for that. I have done a few and it works great.

Ditto, ↑ Never any Oil or Grease.

9V Bulb test (450x253).jpg
02 (500x281).jpg

Check with a 9 volt for bases and bulbs *sometimes it does not work on all bulb bases because a bunch in series will not make it light.
If that happens you can use a meter on the bracket to base for continuity too.
Just dont bridge over to the hot feed. Test with machine unplugged of course. No welding.

#85 5 years ago

Definitely try the soldering trick first (at least on 1-2 sockets). I've done it and it worked on most of mine. Trick for me was to use some flux - otherwise the solder did not want to 'stick/flow'.

Also agree on the new pop bumper caps. Not that great of a picture, but you can see the new caps on my Heat Wave (also a '64 Williams). They really set off the game.

H Wave.jpg

Depending on the exact cap they can be up to $12/pp but if you plan on keeping the game (and I always do at first!) then they are well worth it.

http://www.pbresource.com/pfbumper.htm

#86 5 years ago

So I tried soldering 3 bulb sockets...when I turned game on those
3 bulbs were very very dim...then all of a sudden BOOM! No playfield lights! My heart sinks then I notice it was just a blown fuse...6v 10 A is what it needs but there was a 250v 10 A fuse...does that matter?

#87 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

So I tried soldering 3 bulb sockets...when I turned game on those
3 bulbs were very very dim...then all of a sudden BOOM! No playfield lights! My heart sinks then I notice it was just a blown fuse...6v 10 A is what it needs but there was a 250v 10 A fuse...does that matter?

The voltage can be higher and the fuse will perform properly. You still need a 10A fast blow fuse.

Mike O.
Team-EM

#88 5 years ago

Thanks! Guess I will just replace the sockets...dammit. lol

#89 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

The voltage can be higher and the fuse will perform properly. You still need a 10A fast blow fuse.
Mike O.
Team-EM

Fuse question. Can I get 8 amp fuses locally? I've tried Home Depot, lowes, harbor freight, etc and none has 8 amp fuses. 10, 15, 20, 1-6 amps as well. None that are 8.

#90 5 years ago

Chuck,
I dont think dipsy takes a 8 amp fuse. I dont remember one in mine and i dont see one on teh schematic,

Which fuse are you trying to replace

--Jeff

#91 5 years ago

Don't forget most auto parts stores still sell standard fuses (AGC).

#92 5 years ago

Figured I'd repaint while waiting on my bulb sockets...20140831_022131.jpg20140831_022109.jpg20140831_003556.jpg20140831_003546.jpg

#93 5 years ago

Damn pics are backwards...green is before and white is after.

#94 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

Damn pics are backwards...green is before and white is after.

You can fix, by editing you post and rearrange the attachments.

#95 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

Damn pics are backwards...green is before and white is after.

And here we thought you were one of THEM!

#96 5 years ago

I finished painting the cabinet. Three coats later and it looks amazing! So my legs looks pretty rough. Back legs are black and front legs are chrome/stainless steel colored with a little rust mixed in. I am thinking about painting them. What would be the best way to go about doing this? What color should I use? Also, my coin door and trim around the door are still green. Should I strip the paint off and be done with it or paint the same color as the legs? I've never stripped anything before...do I just get some paint thinner and a wire brush and go to town?

#97 5 years ago

Read alot about Rustoleum Hammertone spray paint...particularly silver and black colors. What do you guys think? Some people say sanding before painting is necessary, some say primer is necessary, and then I saw pics of coin door and legs painted with Hammertone Silver with no sanding and no primer and they looked great. Some people also spray a clear coat. Anybody have a preference one way or the other?

#98 5 years ago

Another option would be to buy a new set of legs for it. Last set of legs I painted was for early SS game cause their legs look like hammertone silver.

#99 5 years ago

I do exactly what you describe when I don't want to invest in a new door skin or leg set. I use the lighter hammer tone paint to replace bad Chrome finish. I use the darker color to re-do Bally legs of the 70's and 80's. In most cases, your finish will be the same with or without primer. If the legs are really pitted, you really need to do the prep work. The point to proper prep and possibly primer is to help the finish remain on the legs. Chrome is not a good surface to paint so it really needs to be scuffed up. And then make sure you get all the contaminants off by using something like Naptha (if still available in your area).

#100 5 years ago

So much cheaper to paint...and the game is 50 years old doesn't need to be perfect...just a little fresher.

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